"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

If all God did/does is to reckon us righteous without making us righteous, then that would make Him a liar!

Not at all....You are actually righteous "in Christ" because that is your humanity cleaned up and taken to heaven. You'll receive this life at the 2nd coming....

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If we don't allow him to do more than just count us as righteous, then we are just fooling ourselves, and we don't really know him.

It's a false gospel.

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith?

Those who are in favor of being counted righteous without being transformed are often fond of referring to "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Please note that "believing God" is exactly what God wants us to do. God is not counting Abraham's doing of something He doesn't want Abraham to do (unrighteousness) as if it were something He did want Abraham to do (righteousness.) This is not sleight of hand. It is real belief on the part of Abraham that is being counted as righteousness.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If all God did/does is to reckon us righteous without making us righteous, then that would make Him a liar!

Not at all....You are actually righteous "in Christ" because that is your humanity cleaned up and taken to heaven. You'll receive this life at the 2nd coming....

My "humanity [is] cleaned up" while the real me remains filthy?

And God tells the whole universe I'm righteous while living a wicked life? You have a god that is not only a liar, but has a follower who believes in fairy tales!!!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If we don't allow him to do more than just count us as righteous, then we are just fooling ourselves, and we don't really know him.

It's a false gospel.

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

Like I said, a false gospel.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Not at all....You are actually righteous "in Christ" because that is your humanity cleaned up and taken to heaven. You'll receive this life at the 2nd coming.

We receive this life now, when we believe in Christ.

Quote:

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.(1 John 5:12)

What life is this, if not a "cleaned up" one?

Quote:

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4.(MB 78)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If we don't allow him to do more than just count us as righteous, then we are just fooling ourselves, and we don't really know him.

It's a false gospel.

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

Which is better news - for God to tell the universe that a wicked wicked person is righteous while he's living the same life or let's even say somewhat improved life? Or tell the universe that that same wicked wicked person is pronounced righteous and God actually makes him so?

Quote:

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith?

And who gave you the authority to separate the fruit from the good news? Of what good is an apple tree unless it bears apples? Do you know what a gardener does to a barren tree after years of TLC? You can read what Jesus said in Lk 13:6-9.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If we don't allow him to do more than just count us as righteous, then we are just fooling ourselves, and we don't really know him.

It's a false gospel.

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith?

Robert,

You are confusing the work of Christ on the Cross (our justification).

With the work of the Holy Spirit dwelling within (our sanctification).

These two works have to be done.

But you seem to be denying the second?

Mark :-)

[Maxine Williams]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum so please be gentle with me.

"In Christ" what does that mean? To me, it means that my entire being is of Christ, my thoughts, my actions, & my words. If my outward appearance (meaning what can be seen) is not reflecting Christ, then even though he is always with me, I am not allowing him to be in control of my life.

[John317]

Hi Maxine,

It's so good to "see" you on the Forum!! You're very welcome here and I hope you get a real blessing from your experience and that you make some good friends.

Please feel free to send me a Private Message if you have questions about the Forum. As a moderator, I'd like to help make your visits friendly and "gentle."

[Robert]

My "humanity [is] cleaned up" while the real me remains filthy?

And God tells the whole universe I'm righteous while living a wicked life? You have a god that is not only a liar, but has a follower who believes in fairy tales!!!

Gerry, if you were to stand before God's law right now could you say "I am sinless"? Could you say, after comparing your life to His, "I am as righteous as Christ"?

You see you already have a humanity "in the heavenly places" right now. This is your humanity glorified. It is the humanity that Christ assumed at the incarnation and as the 2nd Adam you "are complete in Him". That life is your life, hence God is not a liar.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive [past tense] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions [unconverted and living for the flesh] --it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

[/quote']

Like I said, a false gospel.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

When you take Christ's atonement and add to it your works, you are perverting the gospel. You are teaching heresy and will in the end condemn yourself in the judgment.

[Robert]

We receive this life now, when we believe in Christ.

Are you immortal? Are you sinless? Is your human nature gone bye bye? No? The only thing that is changed in the believer is the mind/heart! It has a new direction.

We have accepted Christ's humanity as our humanity and therefore "in christ" we stand righteous.

[Robert]

And who gave you the authority to separate the fruit from the good news?

Okay Gerry, maybe Christ will allow you to test for heaven based on your performance. Will I see you in heaven? No! Why? You ain't good enough...you aren't living His life....No one is....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith? [/quote']

Robert,

You are confusing the work of Christ on the Cross (our justification).

With the work of the Holy Spirit dwelling within (our sanctification).

These two works have to be done.

But you seem to be denying the second?

Mark :-)

This is the same message the Judaizers taught....Christ took care of my past sins (justification) and now through the Spirit I must do the rest (sanctification). This is a false gospel for it is polluted with self....It denies that "in Christ" I am complete....Those who buy into this gospel will fail at heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum so please be gentle with me.

"In Christ" what does that mean? To me, it means that my entire being is of Christ, my thoughts, my actions, & my words. If my outward appearance (meaning what can be seen) is not reflecting Christ, then even though he is always with me, I am not allowing him to be in control of my life.

[pnattmbtc]

When you take Christ's atonement and add to it your works, you are perverting the gospel. You are teaching heresy and will in the end condemn yourself in the judgment.

How is this being done? You should quote something specific when you make an accusation like this. Also, I think it would be prudent to bear in mind "Judge not, lest you be judged," and that the manner in which you judge others, you will also be judged. For example, speaking for myself, I would write, "*If* you are teaching heresy and will in the end condemn yourself in the judgment."

The best way to counteract error is to present truth, not to make empty accusations. I say "empty" because you do not provide the statement which you consider to be heresy. It seems clear to me that the proper procedure would be to quote what you're disagreeing with, and clearly explain why you're disagreeing, without being pejorative.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:We receive this life now, when we believe in Christ.

R:Are you immortal? Are you sinless? Is your human nature gone bye bye? No? The only thing that is changed in the believer is the mind/heart! It has a new direction.

[pnattmbtc]

This is the same message the Judaizers taught....Christ took care of my past sins (justification) and now through the Spirit I must do the rest (sanctification). This is a false gospel for it is polluted with self....It denies that "in Christ" I am complete....Those who buy into this gospel will fail at heaven.

[Gerr]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum so please be gentle with me.

"In Christ" what does that mean? To me, it means that my entire being is of Christ, my thoughts, my actions, & my words. If my outward appearance (meaning what can be seen) is not reflecting Christ, then even though he is always with me, I am not allowing him to be in control of my life.

Amen! And welcome to the forum. Put a leather skin on and you will be fine.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

My "humanity [is] cleaned up" while the real me remains filthy?

And God tells the whole universe I'm righteous while living a wicked life? You have a god that is not only a liar, but has a follower who believes in fairy tales!!!

Gerry, if you were to stand before God's law right now could you say "I am sinless"? Could you say, after comparing your life to His, "I am as righteous as Christ"?

You see you already have a humanity "in the heavenly places" right now. This is your humanity glorified. It is the humanity that Christ assumed at the incarnation and as the 2nd Adam you "are complete in Him". That life is your life, hence God is not a liar.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive [past tense] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions [unconverted and living for the flesh] --it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

People "dead in transgressions [unconverted and living for the flesh] saved, raised up and seated with Christ and glorified in the heavenly places right now? Repeating the same error over and over will never make it true.

Haven't we already established that NOT ALL ARE SAVED? If not all are saved, haven't we already established that the righteousness [righteousness that saves] that comes from God is not the possession of the individual until it is received by faith? Or shall we go over the same ground all over again?

Let me ask you again: Which is the better news, for God to reckon a wicked wicked person as righteous while that person remains "living for the flesh"? Or for God to reckon a wicked wicked person as righteous and then proceeds to actually make that person righteous?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

If we don't allow him to do more than just count us as righteous, then we are just fooling ourselves, and we don't really know him.

It's a false gospel.

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith?

I believe the Gospel is about what Christ does in us. It is about He Who began a good work in you being able to complete it. It is about Christ in you the hope of glory. It is about Turn ye for why will ye die. It is about To Obey is better than sacrifice.

These are all elements of the Gospel and there is much, much more. All good news if we will to do His will. Bad news otherwise.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum so please be gentle with me.

"In Christ" what does that mean? To me, it means that my entire being is of Christ, my thoughts, my actions, & my words. If my outward appearance (meaning what can be seen) is not reflecting Christ, then even though he is always with me, I am not allowing him to be in control of my life.

Yes indeed,

to me you have explained the "test". It is possible to know whether a person is in Christ or not, by their "fruits".

And yes, our "entire being" can be in Christ.

Therefore it is possible that "ALL" the heart mind soul and strength can express love for Him.

______

Regards,

Stewart.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Oh boy...here we go....

The gospel isn't about what He does in us....It's what christ did 2000 years ago, period.

The fruits of the gospel is another subject....Why don't you say that when one accepts the gospel if there's no fruit once one's faith has matured, then it's a false faith? [/quote']

I believe the Gospel is about what Christ does in us. It is about He Who began a good work in you being able to complete it. It is about Christ in you the hope of glory. It is about Turn ye for why will ye die. It is about To Obey is better than sacrifice.

These are all elements of the Gospel and there is much, much more. All good news if we will to do His will. Bad news otherwise.

Thats right, its much more than just an acceptance 2000 years ago. There must be a decided change in the life, a renewed attitude, we must be born again.

Then the life is an ongoing process of sanctification; as one behold Jesus, he is changed into His image.

In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The more we contemplate the character of Christ, and the more we experience of his

saving power, the more keenly shall we realize our own weakness and imperfection,

-14-

and the more earnestly shall we look to him as our strength and our Redeemer. We

have no power in ourselves to cleanse the soul-temple from its defilement; but as we

repent of our sins against God, and seek pardon through the merits of Christ, he will

impart that faith that works by love and purifies the heart. By faith in Christ, and

obedience to the law of God, we may be sanctified, and thus obtain a fitness for the

society of holy angels and the white-robed redeemed ones in the kingdom of glory.

{RH, April 26, 1881 par. 8}

Characters for heaven must be formed first

We have characters to form here. God will test us and prove us by placing us in

positions to develop the most enduring strength, purity, and nobility of soul, with

perfect patience on our part, and entire trust in a crucified Saviour. We shall meet

with reverses, affliction, and severe trials, for these are God's tests. He will sit as a

refiner and purifier of silver and purge His people as gold and silver, that they may

offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness. {Con 93.1}

True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are

battling with daily temptations, over-coming their own sinful tendencies, and seeking

for holiness of heart and life make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering

and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful. {ML 248.4}

Genuine sanctification ... is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity

to the will of God. {ML 248.5}

There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good,

a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase

and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will

finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ. . . . {OHC 214.5}

“I die daily.”

On another occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God… Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he: "I die daily." His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. (4T 299)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And who gave you the authority to separate the fruit from the good news?

Okay Gerry, maybe Christ will allow you to test for heaven based on your performance. Will I see you in heaven? No! Why? You ain't good enough...you aren't living His life....No one is....

For someone who is so vehemently against legalism, you keep forgetting that I am not saved by how successful I am in keeping the law. We are saved by grace, NOT how good we are. But in whom is the "the righteous requirement of the law" fulfilled? In whom is the "righteousness that comes from God" reckoned to? The one living for the flesh? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! as Paul would say, "God forbid! May it never be!" Paul clearly says that the righteous requirement of the law, the righteousness that comes from God and is received by faith is fulfilled in those "who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit," Rom 8:4 ESV. He is unequivocal when he says, "to set the mind on the flesh is death..." 8:6.

What does it mean to walk according the Spirit? Read Gal 5. Walking in the Spirit is denying the demands of the flesh. It is walking in obedience to God's law. It is walking in love. Will I or anyone ever love exactly to the same degree that God loves? Not for eternity! I will always come short because He is infinite, the ultimate! But grace says that when we love, we have fulfilled what the law requires, not for salvation - that's what the righteousness of Christ satisfied.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Robert,

You are confusing the work of Christ on the Cross (our justification).

With the work of the Holy Spirit dwelling within (our sanctification).

These two works have to be done.

But you seem to be denying the second?

Mark :-)

This is the same message the Judaizers taught....Christ took care of my past sins (justification) and now through the Spirit I must do the rest (sanctification). This is a false gospel for it is polluted with self....It denies that "in Christ" I am complete....Those who buy into this gospel will fail at heaven.

through the Spirit I must do the rest (sanctification).

It is indeed true that to attempt to "wield" the Spirit, is error.

If that is indeed what you are saying.

But what we are talking about here, is allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us.

Now again, to lay the charge of "judaizing" here, is to lay that against the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit works in me, as I co-operate with Him.

My part is to continually give Him my will.

The rest of it is His part.

Now if you are saying that to give God our will, to surrender to God, is Judaizing, then you have completely misunderstood the gospel...

Mark :-)