"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

Do you not see the problem with your logic here if he did?

Again, I see what you are attempting to do....No, what Paul wrote is the final word. There might be some translation issues, but other than that Paul did not change his mind....

[Robert]

They didn't know as much as some others,

The savage doesn't know of Christ....He/she has not skills as do the educated. They do not even know the name of Christ, yet through what was created they accept that which they do not understand.

What about infants who die before they reach maturity? What saved them? What Christ did 2000 years ago....

[pnattmbtc]

The savage doesn't know of Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

Do you not see the problem with your logic here if he did?

Robert:Again, I see what you are attempting to do.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Robert

]What about infants who die before they reach maturity? What saved them? What Christ did 2000 years ago.

They'll be taken to heaven according to their ability to develop a character which would be in harmony with heaven. Or, to put it another way, God will take them to heaven if they would be happy there. However, we've been told that not every infant has that capacity. We're told the prenatal care and upbringing of infants is of great importance to their eternal benefit.

I think one thing the thousand years in heaven will show us is that God KNOWS from before they are born who is His and who is not. I think God will prove to us that we can trust Him to decide who is safe to give immortality to and who is not. We are going to learn some amazing things about God's omniscience.

We can say with Job, "Even if He slays ME (and I believe Job meant this in the eternal permanent sense) yet will I trust Him." Where else you gonna go? Satan?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You are confusing believers who keep His commandments BECAUSE they love Him with the Judaizers who were advocating circumcision or law-keeping IN ORDER to be saved!

And what happens if I fail to keep the commandments - what then?

where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, Rom 5:20 ESV.

But what happened to the man who took sanctuary in the City of Refuge when he wandered away from the safety of the City of Refuge?

What happened to Lucifer? To Judas? King Saul? To all the Israelites who left Egypt?

1 Cor 10:

1 For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

3 and all ate the same spiritual food,

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. ESV

[Steve Billiter]

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God. Accenting the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9) Does not mean we continue to sin unabated.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?

1Jn 2:4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Here we have it, those who profess to be Christians yet continue to trample upon the law of God, are liars.They are members of another church but we hope and pray all these will come to the light of truth.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Jesus here is speaking of the false professors in the wrong church, those who are not of spiritual Israel.

The final test reveals we must have the seal of God to enter into heaven via the sea of glass.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The Fathers name reveals His character, Jesus came also to reveal the Father:

John 14:9 Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip?He that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

The Fathers character ifs reflected in the Ten Commandments and the faith of Jesus. It is also seen in the Spirit of Prophecy, the writings of Ellen White, as well as all the other Biblical prophets whether they gave canon of Scripture or not.

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Notice this verse is taken right out of the commandments:

Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

There is simply no way to separate the love of Jesus from the Ten Commandments which are an expression of that love.Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world because the law has been broken by every person who lives, has lived, and will live.He died to restore us to that high Holy estate that Adam lost through transgression. The life-long process of sanctification is designed to bring us back to that place.

At the second coming of Christ, when glorification happens, it will be too late to get rid of unconfessed sin and form characters fit for the society of heavenly Holy beings, and God Himself. Sin cannot be trifled with.

What are the qualifications for heaven?

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Which will result in keeping all the Commandments of God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[SivartM]

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God. Accenting the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9) Does not mean we continue to sin unabated.

I guess we're done for then... because I'm pretty sure that there isn't one person here who hasn't failed in keeping the commandments.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God. Accenting the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9) Does not mean we continue to sin unabated.

I guess we're done for then... because I'm pretty sure that there isn't one person here who hasn't failed in keeping the commandments.

Salvation is all about God working in you to do what is impossible on your own. Christ in you.

No we don't see it in ourselves or others, but we believe in it and cooperate with God by faith knowing that it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

[pnattmbtc]

I think one thing the thousand years in heaven will show us is that God KNOWS from before they are born who is His and who is not.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God. Accenting the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9) Does not mean we continue to sin unabated.

I guess we're done for then... because I'm pretty sure that there isn't one person here who hasn't failed in keeping the commandments.

Check out what it means to "desire evil."

[SivartM]

Check out what it means to "desire evil."

But the post I quoted wasn't about desiring to do evil. The point was that if we fail in keeping the commandments, we will not go to heaven. Period. That means that if we make it to heaven, it will be because of our refraining from sinful acts and not because of what Jesus did.

[karl]

The resurrections will demonstrate that God can accurately separate the sheep from the goats. I think you might be saying the same thing here.

Yes, but I think I am taking it beyond what you said above.

I have absolutely no Scripture or SOP to support this other than generic statements about God's foreknowledge, but I believe God knows, before we are born, whether we will be saved. I am not saying this in support of predestination, nor do I believe this removes free will. It's just Him knowing how we will respond to Him. It's not Him making it happen. It's just Him knowing.

Therefore, we can trust Him to save someone who does not have the same track record of cooperation as others do who have walked with Him for years. We can trust Him to save babies and people on their death-beds. Or not.

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Check out what it means to "desire evil."

But the post I quoted wasn't about desiring to do evil. The point was that if we fail in keeping the commandments, we will not go to heaven. Period. That means that if we make it to heaven, it will be because of our refraining from sinful acts and not because of what Jesus did.

But if you die before you ask for forgiveness, I think God will look at the way you were progressing towards Him and keep that in His mind at judgement time.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am not saying this in support of predestination

Yet, Before the foundations of the world ... He predestinated that ALL would be saved.

[Guest]

Quote:

I am not saying this in support of predestination

Yet, Before the foundations of the world ... He predestinated that ALL would be saved.

Where is that in the Bible?

[Woody]

Quote:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[Guest]

I'm aware of the passage, but where does it say everybody is chosen, or ALL as you put it?

[Woody]

The 'us' is all those that desire Him. ALL. All were predestined to be saved. He made provision for each of us. Not one is left with out salvation if they so choose. The assurance we have is that we are saved because before the foundations of the world ... God made a way. A plan that would include each person that desired. For it is God's desire that ALL be saved. He loves each of us and thus ... he made a way that would not discriminate against anyone. So, yes Richard ... before the foundations of the world ... he made a way for YOU.

[Robert]

They'll be taken to heaven according to their ability to develop a character which would be in harmony with heaven.

Nonsense!

[Robert]

It's very easy to see the development of Paul's thought from earlier epistles to later ones. He grew and developed like any other human. Indeed, one would think that a man of God would develop and change *more* than others.

No, absolutely not, his theology remained consistent. EGW, however, changed...which, BTW, I am okay with, but the way SDA make her is to be the final word.

Paul is the final word....He is the main NT theologian. He was hand picked by Jesus Himself....The other disciples gave an account of the life of Christ, Paul was set aside to explain the gospel.

[Robert]

I think one thing the thousand years in heaven will show us is that God KNOWS from before they are born who is His and who is not. .....

All infants are born self-centered....All are born under the law and hence all are born technically in death row (the 2nd death). All are born bent-to-self! As the Bible states, "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

I firmly believe all infants who died before they could comprehend will be in heaven. Why? Because Christ has legally saved all men in His doing & dying....No infant who enters heaven will have a fallen, sinful nature that is bent-to-self.

In fact if you went to heaven right this moment you'd hate it because even though you are most likely growing in grace you still retain self-love in you life (see Romans 3:23).

As EGW correctly states, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." No getting an education to build your wealth, but another's.....Hence, "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure"....Your passion will be the welfare of others. In turn their overriding ambition will be to make sure your welfare is of primary importance.

So what I am I trying to say? Where you have self (i.e., self-interests, self-seeking, self anything) you have sin. This many, many SDA fail to understand.

Rob

[Robert]

Robert: And what happens if I fail to keep the commandments - what then?

Gerry: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, Rom 5:20 "

So even though I might be experiencing Romans 7 I am saved by faith in Christ and not the works of the law?

[Robert]

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God.

Confession of sin means you admit you are a sinner....That's not under debate....

What I ask Gerry was if I love Christ and yet fail to completely live the good life, does that mean I am lost? Well, he really didn't give me a direct answer....

You, however, say "yes"...we are saved by our performance. This is what the Judaizers taught....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Proper study will reveal that those who fail in keeping the commandments, who have unconfessed unforgiven sins will not be in the kingdom of God. Accenting the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9) Does not mean we continue to sin unabated.

I guess we're done for then... because I'm pretty sure that there isn't one person here who hasn't failed in keeping the commandments.