"In Christ" what does that mean?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Our problem is ...having hearts which love sin and hate God.

R:Sorry, that's not my problem....My heart/mind loves God and hates sin, but my nature loves self and wants to take God off His throne.

p:Through the grace of God, we can deny our self.

R:Have you completely denied self or is there still self-love, self-seeking, self-interests in your life? IF not why talk about something that you aren't fully achieving?

What possible difference could this make to the truth, Robert? Should my experience be the barometer for truth? Is it your position that we:

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

[pnattmbtc]

Following is something that has helped me to understand things. It's rather long, so I'll comment on a separate post.

Quote:

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.

[pnattmbtc]

This is one my favorite passages. It has helped me immensely in understanding the judgment, and also in regards to what is needed for one to go to heaven. We see that there is a group of people for whom heaven would be torture. We're told God would make these people happy if He could. It's not because of a legal problem that God keeps them out. It's because they would be miserable in heaven. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary.

So to go to heaven, we need to be someone who would be happy there. How does that happen? It happens by our being born again. That's what being born again is all about, making us children of God, members of a heavenly kingdom. This is not something we can do ourselves, but we are utterly dependent upon God. However, God is powerful to do so, and happy to do so, provided we are willing.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

P.S.

Do you love Jesus? Then obey His commandments. It's not legalism to do so.

Okay...then obey Jesus in Matthew 5:48; Luke 12:33, etc....

Robert, do YOU love Jesus?

[Guest]

Robert, do YOU love Jesus?

I think that's a good, and fair question.

Well Robert, do ya?

[Robert]

What possible difference could this make to the truth, Robert? Should my experience be the barometer for truth? Is it your position that we:

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

If you aren't doing why bring it up?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Robert, do YOU love Jesus?

I think that's a good, and fair question.

Well Robert, do ya?

Yes....

[Guest]

Well that's good to know. I think you are honest in your beliefs.

I can't say that about everybody.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

There is a world of difference between "sold under sin" "slave to sin" and someone who makes a mistake, or even falls short while trying to comply. It's all in the heart.

Falling short means you are under sin....To be under law means you must fully comply with the law, especially its spirit.

WRONG! To be sold to sin, slave to sin, under sin, is to obey whatever sin commands. Believers are not under law as a means to be saved. They are under grace. Paul, whom you claim to undertand & refer to often says, that believers have "been set free from sin [and] have become slaves of righteousness," Rom 6:18. Do you believe Paul? Believers, as Jesus said, cannot obey two masters. Can't be a slave to sin and at the same time a slave to righteousness. That's impossible!!! It IS quite possible to obey the SPIRIT of the law and fail the LETTER or even come short of the spirit. The slave may not cook a perfect meal, plow a perfect furrow, but if he is doing his job, albeit imperfectly, will his master chastise him? I may not hit the bullseye, but Paul says that when I love, I have fulfilled the law because I have fullfilled it in spirit, Rom 13:10. We are fallen beings, we cannot love perfectly, but "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." FW 49:4

Quote:

Gerry: No doubt even the Scribes & Pharisees loved the law.

Robert: Show me in the Bible where it says that the Pharisees loved the law!

Gerry: Show me from the Bible they didn't. Most people love their profession. The Scribes' profession was the law. Paul said he "delighted in the law of God", so much so he was willing to kill for it.

Quote:

Gerry: having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:17-18 ESV.

Quote:

Robert: Yes, "our old life died in the body of Christ"....Rom 6:6

In Christ our humanity is free from all sin....If you are applying this to your experience I don't buy it....Growth? Maybe, but perfection...don't buy it!

"our old self was crucified with him IN ORDER that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, SO THAT we would no longer be enslaved to sin." Rom 6:6 ESV.

Neither do I buy sinless perfection in this flesh. I have said that over and over and over again. But as long as you don't buy what Paul is saying, the experience will never be yours.

Faith, real faith, takes God at his word.

[Gerr]

[teresaq]

Well that's good to know. I think you are honest in your beliefs.

richard!! i am so amazed at you!! i seem to be seeing such a beautiful change in you!

God bless you, and me, and may we ever grow more and more like Him.

[Guest]

Huh? what? I haven't changed.

[teresaq]

Robert, do YOU love Jesus?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

What possible difference could this make to the truth, Robert? Should my experience be the barometer for truth? Is it your position that we:

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

If you aren't doing why bring it up?

[Guest]

[i asked you:

Quote:

What possible difference could this make to the truth, Robert?

Do you have an answer?

My answer to your question, as to why I brought it up, is because it's true.

I asked you another question, which you also didn't answer, which is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

Either or both of these.

Please respond to the questions.

[karl]

To Robert:

I asked you another question, which you also didn't answer, which is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

I'm not Robert, but it should be self-evident that self cannot cast out self. God can, although He never does it unilaterally. We must get to the "Oh wretched man that I am" stage before we will invite Him in to do the necessary work.

[Just*]

Have you completely denied self or is there still self-love, self-seeking, self-interests in your life? IF not why talk about something that you aren't fully achieving?

Waggoner on Romans:

"Some say, “I do not find this scripture fulfilled in my case, because I find something to condemn me every time I look at myself.” To be sure; for the freedom from condemnation is not in ourselves, but in Christ Jesus. We are to look at him, instead of at ourselves. If we obey his orders, and trust him, he takes the responsibility of making us clear before the law. There will never be a time when one will not find condemnation in looking at himself"...

"Getting into Christ is only the beginning, not the end, of Christian life. It is the entrance to the school where we are to learn of him. He takes the ungodly man with all his evil habits and forgives all his sins, so that he is counted as though he never had sinned. Then he continues to him his own life, by which he may overcome his evil habits. Association with Christ will more and more reveal to us our failings, just as association with a learned man will make us conscious of our ignorance. As a faithful witness, he tells us of our failings. But it is not to condemn us. We receive sympathy, not condemnation, from him. It is this sympathy that gives us courage, and enables us to overcome. When the Lord points our a defect in our characters, it is the same as saying to us, “There is something that you are in need of, and I have it for you.” When we learn to look at reproof in this way, we shall rejoice in it, instead of being discouraged..."

"God doesn’t condemn even when he convicts of sin; and nobody else has any business to condemn. If they do condemn, their condemnation does not amount to anything. Therefore there is no condemnation to those who trust the Lord..."

[karl]

Waggoner on Romans:

When the Lord points out a defect in our characters, it is the same as saying to us, “There is something that you are in need of, and I have it for you.” When we learn to look at reproof in this way, we shall rejoice in it, instead of being discouraged..."

Thanks for posting this.

I used to fear the investigative judgment, until I realized this is what is going on.

[Robert]

believers have "been set free from sin [and] have become slaves of righteousness," Rom 6:18. Do you believe Paul?

[Robert]

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

To Robert:

I asked you another question, which you also didn't answer, which is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

I'm not Robert, but it should be self-evident that self cannot cast out self. God can, although He never does it unilaterally. We must get to the "Oh wretched man that I am" stage before we will invite Him in to do the necessary work.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Waggoner on Romans:

When the Lord points out a defect in our characters, it is the same as saying to us, “There is something that you are in need of, and I have it for you.” When we learn to look at reproof in this way, we shall rejoice in it, instead of being discouraged..."

Thanks for posting this.

I used to fear the investigative judgment, until I realized this is what is going on.

Interesting comment! Very interesting.

I hadn't thought of the investigative judgment in these terms. One certainly could look at it this way.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

believers have "been set free from sin [and] have become slaves of righteousness," Rom 6:18. Do you believe Paul?

I believe Paul in context....The subject is our death in Christ.....See Rom 6:6. In fact that's suppose to be the subject here....

Tell Paul he is out of context because it was he who who said: "We know that our old self was crucified with him [for what purpose?] IN ORDER that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, SO THAT we would no longer be enslaved to sin." That's all in the same verse in 6:6!

Quote:

You say,

Quote:

Can't be a slave to sin and at the same time a slave to righteousness. That's impossible!!!

Quote:

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

That's a contradiction! I am not a slave to sin, but because I'm not free of sin Jesus has to make up for my deficiencies.....Hmmm?

No contradiction. What you fail to see or accept is the fact that one does not have to be perfect to be perfectly LOYAL to someone. Is an employee disloyal because he unintentionally makes a mistake? Can an employee be loyal and INTENTIONALLY/DELIBERATELY screw up the company?

Grace says that when it is your heart to hit the bullseye but misses it, you have fullfilled the spirit of the requirement.

Originally Posted By: Gerry

The Scribes' profession was the law. Paul said he "delighted in the law of God", so much so he was willing to kill for it.

No, you are mixing the converted man of Romans with Paul before conversion. As a Pharisee Saul exclaimed, "as to the righteousness under law, blameless", but as the converted Paul he stated, "I know in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good." Something changed that proud legalist to man who now struggled. What happened? He saw the spiritual side of the law.

EGW: Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

Was there ever a time Paul was not inwardly convinced of the valid requirements of the law? Was he converted when he held the garments of those who stoned Stephen? Yes, after his conversion, he saw even farther in regards to the requirements of the law.

[Gerr]

Quote:

No, Jesus is not....Jesus tells me to abide in him and there'll be genuine fruits in harmony with the law of agape.....

"No, Jesus is not..." is not telling you to keep His commandments? To whom is He talking to?

Now, to abide in Him that produces "genuine fruits in harmony with the law of agape," can you abide in Him and produce such fruit without keeping the 10c? Can you steal, murder, covet, bear false witness and produce fruit in harmony with the law of love?

[teresaq]

Waggoner on Romans:

When the Lord points out a defect in our characters, it is the same as saying to us, “There is something that you are in need of, and I have it for you.” When we learn to look at reproof in this way, we shall rejoice in it, instead of being discouraged..."