"In Christ" what does that mean?

[teresaq]

The law condemns sin....The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but doesn't condemn....

hmmm, interesting thought. i know i have felt condemned by "man" but never by God. convicted, yes, but in a gentle, matter-of-fact way.

good point you brought out!!

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The law condemns sin....The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but doesn't condemn....

hmmm, interesting thought. i know i have felt condemned by "man" but never by God. convicted, yes, but in a gentle, matter-of-fact way.

good point you brought out!!

The Holy Spirit does not speak in conflict with the Word which He (or She) inspired. The Holy Spirit inspired John to record the words of Christ (another member of the Godhead - so this is doubly direct from the mouthpiece of God) saying that the unrepentant sinner stands condemned. This truth comes immediately after the world's favorite Bible text.

So, when the HS convicts us of sin, that guilt which He brings to our minds is the evidence of our condemnation.

The apostle Paul, in relating his experience, presents an important truth concerning the work to be wrought in conversion. He says, "I was alive without the law once,"--he felt no condemnation; "but when the commandment came," when the law of God was urged upon his conscience, "sin revived, and I died." [Romans 7:9.] Then he saw himself a sinner, condemned by the divine law. Mark, it was Paul, and not the law, that died. He says, further, "I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." [Romans 7:7.] "The commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." [Romans 7:10.] The law which promised life to the obedient, pronounced death upon the transgressor. "Wherefore," he says, "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Romans 7:12.]

Paul would have his brethren discern that Christ, pointed out in types and shadows, had come, and the greater glory of a sin-pardoning Saviour gave significance to the entire Jewish economy. Without Christ the law of itself was only condemnation and death to the transgressor. It has no saving quality--no power to shield the transgressor from its penalty. The full penalty of the law will be executed upon the transgressor if he does not receive Christ as his atoning sacrifice and his personal Saviour.

[Guest]

I believe you have hit it on the head karl.

[Robert]

God didn't give the Old Covenant.

[Robert]

I'm not talking about doing something to gain heaven, but to be a follower of Christ (or rather, this is what Christ talked about).

Okay, let's say you are right for arguments sake....What if I don't deny myself fully as Christ did....Then what? Let me guess, I'm lost! If so then you are "talking about doing something to gain heaven"!

[Robert]

So, when the HS convicts us of sin, that guilt which He brings to our minds is the evidence of our condemnation.

No, no, no....That's law.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i asked a question and got what looks like a "sermon", hence the response.

not sure your text would apply....

I gave you an honest response to how I understood the question.

You took it upon yourself to interpret it as sermonizing or even a more sinister

motive of being "egotistical" or posing as "an expert." That, IMHO, is not

an act motivated by grace.

This behaviour is consistently constant to cause concern.

[Gerr]

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, Robert.

Check out your quote from Scripture. John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin .... 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me

The sin here is the sin of unbelief!

And what does the sin of unbelief lead to? It leads to disobedience, Heb 3:18-19. Read the book of Numbers for all the things the unbelieving Israelites did. They murmured, rebelled, worshiped idols, fornicated with the Midianite women, lusted for food that was not the best for them.

Quote:

For you to suggest that the Spirit does not condemn sin is, well, it's really skating on thin ice with God, man.

The law condemns sin....The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but doesn't condemn....

The Holy Spirit does not have to condemn individuals because those guilty of unbelief are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Ok. In Gal 3:24, Paul likens the law to a "guardian" (ESV,NCV) "tutor" (NASB, NKJ), "in charge" (NIV), "schoolmaster" (KJV), or Gk "paidogogos", who "among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood." Strong, J. (1996).

Of course that is Strong's opinion. However, there's a big, big problem with this view. Go to Gal 3:21

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

In other words if it was possible to obey the law perfectly then you could achieve life by obedience.

Could you show ONE post where ANYONE is claiming that they merit life BECAUSE of their own obedience? That's the strawman you keep raising up no matter how many times it's knocked down. And then you complain about a "vicious cycle!!!" "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life," 1 Jn 5:12 ESV.

But check any Greek lexicon to see what paidagogos mean. It's not just Strong's opinion. Let me ask you again, when the guardian brings the child to Christ, is the child now free to play hooky and be naughty? Or does he behave extra nice now that he is in the presence of royalty?

Quote:

Verse 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world [the human race] is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed....

Of course, the whole world is held prisoner of sin because they have transgressed the law. The law points out the sin but cannot save. So the law points the sinner to a Saviour, Jesus Christ. So the sinner goes to Christ and receives pardon and reconciliation. Is he now free to break the law again? That's Paul's point in Gal 3:21-25. He says the same thing in Rom 6:1, "Are we to continue [present tense] in sin that grace may abound? By no means! [God forbid! May it never be!]in sin

Quote:

1 Cor 15:56 "Now the sting of death is sin [sin produces death]: and the power of sin is the law."

What does that mean? It means God's law legally puts us under sin and hence condemnation. The law requires death...the 2nd death. Thus it places you in prison (not under a nice trustworthy slave to keep one in check [how silly]).

How silly of Paul to use the guardian/tutor metaphor?

[pnattmbtc]

p:I'm not talking about doing something to gain heaven, but to be a follower of Christ (or rather, this is what Christ talked about).

R:Okay, let's say you are right for arguments sake.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The law condemns sin....The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but doesn't condemn....

hmmm, interesting thought. i know i have felt condemned by "man" but never by God. convicted, yes, but in a gentle, matter-of-fact way.

good point you brought out!!

Ty Gibson writes something really nice about this. He has a couple of books I really like, that I'd highly recommend. One is "See With New Eyes" and the other is "Shades of Grace." He speaks about how the condemnation which we feel comes from sin itself, and not from God.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: karl

So, when the HS convicts us of sin, that guilt which He brings to our minds is the evidence of our condemnation.

No, no, no....That's law.

Semantics! How does the HS convict a sinner except by impressing the mind that a law has been transgressed?

[Woody]

Quote:

Could you show ONE post where ANYONE is claiming that they merit life BECAUSE of their own obedience?

I've noticed many here on this forum claiming just this. Yes, they do try to be sly about it and combine it with Faith. What they say is that we are saved by Faith PLUS Works. But without their own obedience ... they claim that they are not saved.

Apparently they are ignoring:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." 2 Tim. 1:9

[pnattmbtc]

Redwood, you don't think people are saying that they are saved by faith, but obedience testifies as to whether the faith is genuine?

[Woody]

Redwood, you don't think people are saying that they are saved by faith, but obedience testifies as to whether the faith is genuine?

I've been on this forum long enough to realize those that believe this and those who don't. It can be difficult to tell at times ... I confess.

But, my personal belief is that we all have a varied amount of works. None is without. But the more we have ... the more we glorify God. This is the purpose of works. Works are not for salvation. It is here that many have been confused. And then many believe in works just because they are at an infantile stage of development. And I don't fault them for that. But it is a shame that so many are just stuck in legalism. For God's message of Grace is such a blessing.

I don't fault anyone at any stage they might be. I just wish I could share with them the GOOD news.

[SivartM]

Why do we feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that if they have REAL faith they will be obedient? If they are truly converted, they will want to obey God. Why would we have to tell them to obey God?

In my opinion that just confuses things, like Redwood said. By making it abundantly clear that "if you have real faith then you will do this and this and this", that blurs the line between salvation by faith and salvation by works.

We don't tell others that if they are REAL humans they will eat, sleep, and breathe, do we?

[Woody]

Quote:

Why do we feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that if they have REAL faith they will be obedient?

Good Point SilvartM. The reason from what I have seen is the old desire to look to humans instead of Jesus. We want so badly to have a HUMAN role model when JESUS should be our only role model. We are not to look to humans ... but only to Jesus.

Looking or judging others behaviour is an old trick of the Devil.

[Woody]

Hey SilvartM ... I failed to see this the first go around. Very Good ....

Quote:

We don't tell others that if they are REAL humans they will eat, sleep, and breathe, do we?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Redwood, you don't think people are saying that they are saved by faith, but obedience testifies as to whether the faith is genuine?

I've been on this forum long enough to realize those that believe this and those who don't. It can be difficult to tell at times ... I confess.

But, my personal belief is that we all have a varied amount of works. None is without. But the more we have ... the more we glorify God. This is the purpose of works. Works are not for salvation. It is here that many have been confused. And then many believe in works just because they are at an infantile stage of development. And I don't fault them for that. But it is a shame that so many are just stuck in legalism. For God's message of Grace is such a blessing.

I don't fault anyone at any stage they might be. I just wish I could share with them the GOOD news.

I think the Good News that people need to hear is the Good News about God. That is, God is just the person that Jesus Christ revealed Him to be (i.e., just like Jesus Christ).

[karl]

Originally Posted By: robert

The law condemns sin....The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but doesn't condemn....

The Holy Spirit does not have to condemn individuals because those guilty of unbelief are condemned already, Jn 3:18.

Romans 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Corinthians 11:32

But when we are judged , we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

James 5:9

Grudge not one against another , brethren, lest ye be condemned : behold , the judge standeth before the door.

2 Peter 2:6

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly

[Guest]

Excellent texts karl.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Could you show ONE post where ANYONE is claiming that they merit life BECAUSE of their own obedience?

I've noticed many here on this forum claiming just this. Yes, they do try to be sly about it and combine it with Faith. What they say is that we are saved by Faith PLUS Works. But without their own obedience ... they claim that they are not saved.

Apparently they are ignoring:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." 2 Tim. 1:9

I have said many times, the faith that saves is the faith that works. We put theories that don't work in the junk pile. The faith that doesn't work no less belongs there.

[Woody]

As I have indicated here on this forum many times ... ALL have works. So it is a 'fruitless' discussion to demand works when we ALL have them.

[Gerr]

Why do we feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that if they have REAL faith they will be obedient? If they are truly converted, they will want to obey God. Why would we have to tell them to obey God?

In my opinion that just confuses things, like Redwood said. By making it abundantly clear that "if you have real faith then you will do this and this and this", that blurs the line between salvation by faith and salvation by works.

We don't tell others that if they are REAL humans they will eat, sleep, and breathe, do we?

We are often forced to talk about works because there are some people that believe/teach that a lifeless faith can save.

[Gerr]

As I have indicated here on this forum many times ... ALL have works. So it is a 'fruitless' discussion to demand works when we ALL have them.

Yeah, like good works, bad works, and dead works.