"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

Some EGW statements that are right on the money:

"The law of self-serving is the law of self-destruction."

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

Think them out...

ROb

[teresaq]

Actually, the emphasis in the bulk of Protestant Christianity today is against works.

[Carole P]

Well its the Holy Spirit's job to teach people, not ours. Our job is to live a Spirit filled life.

[karl]

what i am noticing more and more now, are the texts/quotes that say we need to uphold Christ, not the law. if we do it right people will see the law in Christ and be converted. if we uphold the law, people are not converted. how could they be?

[pnattmbtc]

A lot of speculation here....

Yes, he forsook all, but why? Remember it was not until after the cross that the disciples reflected more of the self-emptying love of God. Before that they were bragging about who among them was the greatest. They would fight at the drop of a hat, etc.

Look at Peter's reply for example:

Matt 19:27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

Sure, they forsook all, but why? Because they wanted a king who would drive out the Romans....They wanted to be in power...one on His left and the other His right. Everything they did was for self-centered, egocentric motivations, which is God's eyes is sin. Yet Christ accepted them where they were at.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

what i am noticing more and more now, are the texts/quotes that say we need to uphold Christ, not the law. if we do it right people will see the law in Christ and be converted. if we uphold the law, people are not converted. how could they be?

I agree with every one of the quotes you provided. Please note that she said we should preach Christ IN the law. The schism in Adventism is between the two forms of legal solutions to the sin problem. Self does it all or God does it all.

Satan has created a false dichotomy in many minds between Christ and His law.

We are to preach Christ IN the law. Christ does it in us. It is a positive thing. You SHALL have no other gods before Me.

Quote:

"You will meet with those who will say, 'You are too much excited over the matter. You are too much in earnest. You should not be reaching for the righteousness of Christ, and making so much of that. You should preach the law.' As a people we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa, that had neither dew nor rain. We must preach Christ in the law, and there will be sap and nourishment in the preaching that will be as food to the famishing flock of God. We must not trust in our own merits at all, but in the merits of Jesus of Nazareth."-Review and Herald, March 11,1890. {1941 AGD, COR 48.3}

sometimes we take what is meant for one group and apply it to another group that it does not apply to.

there is a strong reaction to the overbearing legalism of the past in adventism today. that has caused some to become even more legalistic and overbearing. it has caused others to pretty much chuck it all.

not understanding the situation and preaching more law is not going to help. in other words some of you are dealing with one situation, as you see it, while i am addressing another.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Legalism isn't why I left the church 25 years ago. And an absence of legalism isn't why I returned.

ntmomitf

[Robert]

Christ told him to sell what what had and follow Him because this was his idol. Had he done so, just think of the blessings awaiting him! Fortunately, Matthew responded, and left all he had to follow Christ.

This idea came from EGW, not you....That's my problem, you take EGW over your own Bible study! I quote her only if I have derived it from the Bible first....

[Robert]

If you can quote from her, without being "lazy," why couldn't I?

[karl]

what i am noticing more and more now, are the texts/quotes that say we need to uphold Christ, not the law.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

She was not terrifying her son with the wrath of God.

"try to do right always, and then no black mark will be set down against you"

This is fear bating....This is highhanded legalism....Be good or God is going to get you. That places fear in kids.

That's the way you see it and that's your choice. She was not terrifying her son with the wrath of God. That's not highhanded legalism or fear bating, She was reasoning with her son in a way he could understand.

[Woody]

Rob. Don't you know ... EGW never made a mistake or spoke a wrong word in her life. She was infallible. And they will set out to twist and turn each and every statement to prove it.

[Robert]

She was reasoning with her son in a way he could understand.

So she had to use fear?...she used legalism....This produces legalism....I know first hand, my Grandfather (who was a man of God) used it a bit too....He didn't know better....When you do this you make the recipient fear God.....It's bad theology....

[karl]

Wow, a man who goes out of his way to prove God's does do ill towards folks, and now you are trying to use fear bating....Hmmm?

Let me say it again, Ellen White is not the end all, be all of Biblical truth....She didn't have a monopoly on truth. In fact she stated that she only had a glimmer of truth....

The way I see it, pnattmbc IS promoting fear bating. God does the same. He says "Fear not." He is trying to abate fear. The word "bating" is related to bated, as in "bated breath." It means halted or held.

Perhaps you were attempting to refer to fear baiting, which is related to setting a trap?

And yes, I have watched you dump on EGW right and left.

If God holds you accountable for the light she recorded, your defense will be... what? That JS trumps EGW? Where is that written?

[Robert]

Rob. Don't you know ... EGW never made a mistake or spoke a wrong word in her life. She was infallible. And they will set out to twist and turn each and every statement to prove it.

And that is why I have always maintained that such folks are part of a cult! She states over and over that she wasn't infallible, but what do they do? They rush to her aid and warn those who say opposite. How hypocritical.

It's the same at work....The boss does something wrong and the guys bad mouth him, but let him be there and they will kiss butt....I have the feeling this is being done with Ellen. "God, look at us, Rob's bringing out mistakes, we will defend her."

Rob

[Robert]

Perhaps you were attempting to refer to fear baiting, which is related to setting a trap?

Yes...I don't always check what I write....In fact my grammar and spelling lacks....I do best with calculus and electronics....That's what I do for a living....

[Robert]

And yes, I have watched you dump on EGW right and left.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't see anyone here arguing for legalism. Why does it keep being a subject of debate????

NTMOMITF

[Woody]

Legalism is sly Pam. You don't recognize it at first. And for sure ... no one will admit that they support legalism. But they DO.

[Robert]

I don't see anyone here arguing for legalism. Why does it keep being a subject of debate????

NTMOMITF

Are you reading what they say? They hold out perfection...they don't say look, yes grow, but you are perfect in Christ? No, I don't hear that...I hear subtle legalism. I just don't use the word "subtle" when I bring it up....Legalism is salvation by law, period. Subtle legalism is a mixture of grace and law...like the Judaizers presented....I hear it here all the time. Rob

[Robert]

EGW takes a verse and then uses to explain something else....She uses it out of context...not that it is wrong, but when folks think she knows it all they take her comments along with those verses she quoted and exclaim, "See, that's from God"

Here's a perfect example....The highlight portion has been lifted out of context to prove her point. Her point may be right, but if you think she is a divine commentator on scripture, well, you'll run into problems:

“To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Paul asks, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” and answers, “God forbid.” Again he asks, “Do we then make void the law through faith?” and answers, “God forbid; yea, we establish the law.” God’s will is expressed in his holy law, and Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

[Robert]

“To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Paul asks, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” and answers, “God forbid.” Again he asks, “Do we then make void the law through faith?” and answers, “God forbid; yea, we establish the law.” God’s will is expressed in his holy law, and Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Rob. Don't you know ... EGW never made a mistake or spoke a wrong word in her life. She was infallible. And they will set out to twist and turn each and every statement to prove it.

And that is why I have always maintained that such folks are part of a cult! She states over and over that she wasn't infallible, but what do they do? They rush to her aid and warn those who say opposite. How hypocritical.

It's the same at work....The boss does something wrong and the guys bad mouth him, but let him be there and they will kiss butt....I have the feeling this is being done with Ellen. "God, look at us, Rob's bringing out mistakes, we will defend her."

Rob

Wasted irony.

[Robert]

“To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Paul asks, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” and answers, “God forbid.” Again he asks, “Do we then make void the law through faith?” and answers, “God forbid; yea, we establish the law.” God’s will is expressed in his holy law, and Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Jack:

What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.

2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:

The soul who sins is the one who will die.

And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. Good stuff.