"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

Ok, how can I have a righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees who seemed to have been doing those things? By bowing to idols? Stealing? Fornicating? Killing?

Jesus answered that if you would only read it:

Matt 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

You see EGW waters this down.....She says that we are to perfect in our sphere just as God is in His....But that's EGW interpretation....Jesus said "You must be perfect as God is in heaven." Why? Who was He talking to? You must go to where He ends His sermon:

matt 7:28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

"The people" were the Jews who had been raised to believe that if you wanted heaven you must obey the law. So Christ made it harder for them.

The Pharisees and teachers of the law, for example, taught that it was sin to murder someone, but Jesus said, "I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother" had committed murder in the eye's of the spirit of the law.

So Christ made it impossible for them to be saved by law. Has Christ reached you, Gerry? or do you still think you are measuring up?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I can't seem to remember any. Kindly refresh my memory.

Romans 7:6 is one....

You are giving the same verse from which you quoted it from to claim we are released from the law!!!

Quote:

Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Ok. In Gal 3:24, Paul likens the law to a "guardian" (ESV,NCV) "tutor" (NASB, NKJ), "in charge" (NIV), "schoolmaster" (KJV), or Gk "paidogogos", who "among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood." Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G3807). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

So whenever the children played hooky or became naughty, the guardian would bring them back to school or corrected them. Now when the guardian (the law) brings the children to Christ, they are now free to play hooky and be naughty? That their supervision in life and morals have ended? Totally absurd!!!

To be delivered and released from the law is to be delivered and released from condemnation!!!

Paul makes it clear in Gal 5 who are released from the law. Those who walk by the Spirit, 5:16. Those who do so "will not gratify the desires of the flesh." "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law," 5:18. Why? They don't murder their neighbor or even their enemies; they love them. They don't steal from another, instead they are kind to them. IOW they are keeping the spirit of the law, and "against such there is no law," 5:24.

That is why the psalmist could say: "I will walk in freedom, for I have devoted myself to your commandments." Ps 119:45 NLT

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Ok, how can I have a righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees who seemed to have been doing those things? By bowing to idols? Stealing? Fornicating? Killing?

Jesus answered that if you would only read it:

Matt 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Alright, how can I be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect? By stealing? Killing? Fornicating?

Quote:

matt 7:28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Where did Jesus every say in the Sermon on the mount, that one is free to break any of the commandments? On the contrary He said, "I have not come to abolish the law....whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and TEACHES others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever DOES them and TEACHES them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Quote:

"The people" were the Jews who had been raised to believe that if you wanted heaven you must obey the law. So Christ made it harder for them.

And Jesus makes it easier for Gentiles to be saved by allowing them to break the law? Where did Jesus ever teach that?

Quote:

The Pharisees and teachers of the law, for example, taught that it was sin to murder someone, but Jesus said, "I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother" had committed murder in the eye's of the spirit of the law.

So Christ made it impossible for them to be saved by law. Has Christ reached you, Gerry? or do you still think you are measuring up?

We go round and round in a vicious cycle because you keep bringing up the same silly charge that because I obey the law, I am therefore trying to be saved by it! I obey the law albeit imperfectly BECAUSE I love Jesus! I obey the law albeit imperfectly because I love Jesus. I obey the law albeit imperfectly because I love Jesus. Not in order to be saved. Not inorder to be saved. Not inorder to be saved. I obey because I have been saved. I obey because I have been saved!

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God gave the Old Covenant with the express intent to reveal to the Isrealites that they were totally incapable, within themselves and of themselves (by self) to keep Gods Law.

Is this what you are saying?

Mark

Yes, and Matthew chapter 19 is a perfect example of how God uses OC principles to try and bring the self-righteous to repentance.

God didn't give the Old Covenant. He gave the New Covenant. The people initiated the Old Covenant, and God agreed to their proposal.

Matthew 19 was the same offer that Jesus made to Levi (Matthew), who made a better choice than the rich young ruler did, leaving all that he had to follow Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I don't understand this comment. My question is if it is your position what we need not deny self, or cannot deny self? Would you please answer this question?

The fact that one accepts Christ means that he must deny self because in order to accept Christ one has to view himself as completely undone. He must admit, as did Paul, "I know in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good."

The proud...the self-righteous will never do this....They'll say, "why should I accepted Christ?"...."After all I'm good to my family...my kids. I keep the rules of my government...I don't steal...I don't murder...I don't cheat on my wife....Why do I need Christ?"

That's why Christ said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." [Luke 5:32]

But if you mean living a selfless life (as did Christ) in order to gain heaven, then you are denying that you are already complete "in Christ"! That is a self-righteous stance and the one who believes this is not denying self....

Think it out....If you can add, by your self-denial as it pertains to the law, then you are not denying your nature. You are feeding it....You are saying Christ did so much and now I, even through the Spirit, do the rest....

I mean to deny self, take up one's cross, and daily follow Christ, like He said. He said that one must do this to be a follower of His. I'm not talking about doing something to gain heaven, but to be a follower of Christ (or rather, this is what Christ talked about).

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

As to how Satan developed a bent to sin, that's not hard to explain. Satan chose to follow his own independent will, rather then the will of God.

Why would Lucifer's will be outside God's will? As to Christ's will being outside, that's easy to understand because He assumed our humanity indwelt with our bent-to-self.....Our humanity told Christ "don't do it...don't die for these sinners...screw them...save yourself...you come first...to heck with these guys...love yourself man!" But what did Christ do? He said, "Not my will, but yours"....

Lucifer didn't have this bent-to-self to contend with....So it was very unnatural for him to sin....That's why it is a mystery. How could a sinless being, who by nature lives for others only, take a u-turn and become bent-to-self? No one knows....So your original point is invalid!

Please, Robert, quit cutting off my posts and leaving out the context! I've already asked you not to do this. This was a short post. It wouldn't have hurt anything to post the whole thing.

It doesn't seem you even read what I wrote. I said it's not hard to understand how Satan developed a bent to sin, which is what you said (context which you also left out, which was in my post). I then said *why* Satan did this is the mystery.

I was correcting what you wrote, but there's no way to determine this when you chop up what I wrote, taking a small bit, out of context, and leaving out the context of what I was responding to.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Here's your reasoning:

Me:The Bible says Saturday is the Sabbath.

You:Are you keeping Sabbath?

No, it's not the same.....Apples and oranges dude...apples and oranges...

It's exactly the same thing. You're trying to bypass a question of whether a statement is true or not by asking an irrelevant question.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

=Robert quote=pnattmbtc quote He also put it like this: sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and come, follow Me.

Quote:

p:I like what karl wrote in response to what taking up one's cross means.

Quote:

R:But who has done this? And remember it must be done with no self in mind for it to be true righteousness! See 1 Cor 13:3

Would you quit doing this please? I didn't say, "He also put it like this: sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and come, follow Me."

I did say "I like what karl wrote in response to what taking up one's cross means," but not in response to the quote you cited, but to a totally different one, which you didn't cite.

Please, Robert, be accurate in what your quoting. It's not that hard, and what you're doing is just wrong, making it appear that people are saying things they're not saying. You're doing this repeatedly.

I don't believe you're doing this on purpose, but just being careless. This is the third time in a short amount of time that I'm calling this to your attention.

Please be more careful.

(Because of the software limitations, I had to quote this in a rather awkward way.).

[Woody]

Quote:

"I obey because I have been saved. I obey because I have been saved! "

Cool. I hadn't heard this coming from you before Gerry. Praise God ... I am saved also. I appreciate it when I hear these words from others. At times I feel alone in saying them.

Glad we are finally on the same side of an issue.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God gave the Old Covenant with the express intent to reveal to the Isrealites that they were totally incapable, within themselves and of themselves (by self) to keep Gods Law.

Is this what you are saying?

Mark

Yes, and Matthew chapter 19 is a perfect example of how God uses OC principles to try and bring the self-righteous to repentance.

I agree with you on this point Robert, although I have not looked at Mat 19 just yet.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Would you kindly PRODUCE one text where "released from the law" means released from obedience to it?

I've already given you many....If you are still under the law as it pertains to obedience you immediately come back under its curse for you are failing to meet its highest demands.....It's a vicious cycle....

Released from the law means:

"Released from our own efforts to keep the law apart from Christ".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

that is your understanding of abiding in Jesus?

If you mean that I am lost every time I am not thinking about Christ or make a mistake, then the answer is, NO.

To abide means to remain. The grafted scion or twig has to remain attached, receive the life-giving sap in order to survive. How long can the graft be without the sap before it dies? The devil uses all kinds of distractions, even things that are good in themselves, just to take our eyes off Christ. That's why in Hebrews the counself is to pay attention lest we drift away.

I would say it this way:

It means to remain in the promises of Christ, in the presence of Christ and in the spiritual knowledge of our spiritual poverty, Christs perfect merits appropriated to ourselves and in the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What do you think?

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

that is your understanding of abiding in Jesus?

If you mean that I am lost every time I am not thinking about Christ or make a mistake, then the answer is, NO.

To abide means to remain. The grafted scion or twig has to remain attached, receive the life-giving sap in order to survive. How long can the graft be without the sap before it dies? The devil uses all kinds of distractions, even things that are good in themselves, just to take our eyes off Christ. That's why in Hebrews the counself is to pay attention lest we drift away.

im thinking you didnt understand the question in light of the previous posts, hence the "sermon".

either that or you have some egotistical need to look like an "expert".

[pnattmbtc]

To abide means to remain. The grafted scion or twig has to remain attached, receive the life-giving sap in order to survive. How long can the graft be without the sap before it dies? The devil uses all kinds of distractions, even things that are good in themselves, just to take our eyes off Christ. That's why in Hebrews the counsel is to pay attention lest we drift away.

This is nice.

[Gerr]

Quote:

If you mean that I am lost every time I am not thinking about Christ or make a mistake, then the answer is, NO.

To abide means to remain. The grafted scion or twig has to remain attached, receive the life-giving sap in order to survive. How long can the graft be without the sap before it dies? The devil uses all kinds of distractions, even things that are good in themselves, just to take our eyes off Christ. That's why in Hebrews the counself is to pay attention lest we drift away.

im thinking you didnt understand the question in light of the previous posts, hence the "sermon".

either that or you have some egotistical need to look like an "expert".

Love thinks no evil - 1 Cor 13:5

[teresaq]

i asked a question and got what looks like a "sermon", hence the response.

not sure your text would apply.... :)

[Robert]

Ok. In Gal 3:24, Paul likens the law to a "guardian" (ESV,NCV) "tutor" (NASB, NKJ), "in charge" (NIV), "schoolmaster" (KJV), or Gk "paidogogos", who "among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood." Strong, J. (1996).

Of course that is Strong's opinion. However, there's a big, big problem with this view. Go to Gal 3:21

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

In other words if it was possible to obey the law perfectly then you could achieve life by obedience.

Verse 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world [the human race] is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed....

1 Cor 15:56 "Now the sting of death is sin [sin produces death]: and the power of sin is the law."

What does that mean? It means God's law legally puts us under sin and hence condemnation. The law requires death...the 2nd death. Thus it places you in prison (not under a nice trustworthy slave to keep one in check [how silly]).

[Robert]

To be delivered and released from the law is to be delivered and released from condemnation!!!

A possible response:

"Praise the Lord...now I can sin all the more because when I do the law can't touch me because it can't condemn me! "

[Robert]

"If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law," 5:18. Why? They don't murder their neighbor or even their enemies; they love them. They don't steal from another, instead they are kind to them. IOW they are keeping the spirit of the law, and "against such there is no law," 5:24.

I must admit, Gerry, this is a good attempt...very good. Best you've done in awhile.

Let's back up:

6 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. 17 For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. 18 If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law. 19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who practice these things [as a legitimate lifestyle] will not possess the Kingdom of God. [GNT]

Now Paul is saying the same things in Romans 7 & 8. In fact in Romans it's more evident.

Romans 7:22 In my inner being I delight in the law of God.

BTW, that's conversion! Your mind takes a u-turn. Before this your nature and your mind were in harmony. If your nature said "let's have sex with that woman", the mind would say "yes - good idea!"

But when you become converted the mind takes a u-turn. Now the mind says, "No, that's selfishness", but if you try to resist using your mind the nature will defeat you and you'll have sex if the woman is willing. But if you allow the Spirit to have your nature then you'll be able to get through the temptation.

Now, the question is what if your experience leans more to the man of Romans 7? Is there condemnation? No! Why? I mean after all you aren't walking in the Spirit when you fail. If you go with Galatians 5:18 it makes it sound like your back under law every time you sin. Is that the case? No! Why not?

Rom 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

So there's no condemnation, i.e., you don't go back under law because your are failing....The law condemns all sin....The Holy Spirit - Christ's representative, does not. He says, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

However, if you harden your heart...if you let your nature fully have its way, it will pull you out of Christ and then you'll apostatize. Oh outwardly you might claim Christ because maybe you do business with some church folks, but inside your heart is hardened and you can no longer hear His voice. This is the unpardonable sin...the rejection of God's Spirit. Once this happens you fall back under law.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law," 5:18. Why? They don't murder their neighbor or even their enemies; they love them. They don't steal from another, instead they are kind to them. IOW they are keeping the spirit of the law, and "against such there is no law," 5:24.

I must admit, Gerry, this is a good attempt...very good. Best you've done in awhile.

Let's back up:

6 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature.

[Robert]

You were arguing earlier that if the Spirit constrains a person to do God's will, that person is a Roman Catholic! (or something to that effect)

[teresaq]

Of course that is Strong's opinion. However, there's a big, big problem with this view. Go to Gal 3:21

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

In other words if it was possible to obey the law perfectly then you could achieve life by obedience.

Verse 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world [the human race] is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed....

1 Cor 15:56 "Now the sting of death is sin [sin produces death]: and the power of sin is the law."

What does that mean? It means God's law legally puts us under sin and hence condemnation. The law requires death...the 2nd death. Thus it places you in prison (not under a nice trustworthy slave to keep one in check [how silly]).

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/319531/1.html

May 11, 1889 "The Sabbath Morning Sermon" #1

By A. T. Jones

Matt. 6:33—"Seek ye first . . . his righteousness," is the subject today. We notice first whose righteousness we are to seek. It is God's. We must seek and find it or we will not be saved. Nothing else will avail. We must know, however, where to seek for it and how, because we often seek for it in the wrong place; for instance, as many do, in the law of God, and through keeping it. We will never find it there.

That is not the place to seek for it. This is not saying that

the righteousness of God is not there. The commandments are the righteousness of God, but we will never find it there. In Rom. 2:17-18, we see that the law is clearly pointed out, through which, if we are instructed, we are called of God. Then they, being the will of God, it would be impossible for the Lord himself to be better than the ten commandments require us to be. The Lord's will must be the expression of what he is himself; hence it is impossible he should be better than his law. To keep his commandments, then, means that we shall be as good as God is, so we read in 1 John 3:7: "He that doeth righteousness, is righteous even as he is righteous."

Now see Psalms 119:138, Deuteronomy 6:35, Isaiah 59:7—the

people who do the law of God are righteous, even as God is

righteous, then to keep them means that man must be like God in character. Then the righteousness of God is in his law, but it is not revealed to men by the law. Romans 1:16- 17, the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel to men, and not in the law. It is in the law, but it is not revealed there to us because we are sinners, and sin has so darkened our mind that we can not see it there, and therefore our vision has to been lightened by some other means, which is the gospel, where we must seek for it, Romans 3:21.

The righteousness of God is made known without the law. How? By faith in Jesus Christ, through the gospel, and not by the law. Now read again Romans 1:16- 17, and this will be clear. To show this further, Romans 10:4. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Does not this say the same as the others? We have lost often the real point in this text to use it against those who claim the commandments are abolished, who claim Christ ended the law, and we claiming it means "the purpose of" the law, but the point in this text is that Christ is the purpose of the law "for righteousness" to us, as we can not get it by the law,

Romans 8:3.

The law was ordained to life, righteousness, holiness, justification, but because of sin it cannot be this to us, so what it cannot do Christ does for us. Then, if we seek it in the wrong place we lose the righteousness of Christ. Now, righteousness must come from the same source as does life; they are inseparable. Romans 8:3. Moses uses the terms here interchangeably, so also Gal. 3:21 showing that righteousness must come to us from the same source as life, and that is Christ. Romans 6:23: this we have always preached, but he said before this the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life, and so we have always claimed eternal life to be a gift, but we have not claimed the same for righteousness as being a gift through Jesus Christ.

Why was it necessary that something was given to have life? Because the wages of sin was death. If a law could give life, it would be by the law. If the law was a secondary form and God could have made another, and better, it would not suffice because if men could not keep an inferior law they could not keep a superior, consequently no law could give the life. Therefore Christ came to be the purpose of the law to everyone that believeth.

Now we want to see what righteousness there is in the law for us, and we will become convinced it is our own, which is the

very best we can ever get out of the law. If I take the

highest and most comprehensive view of the law I can, and live up to it, is that a satisfying of the law? No, because it is not a high enough view of it, because the mind is all darkened by sin, and man's comprehension is not broad enough to grasp the height and breadth of it, and so does not meet the requirements of the law. It is our own righteousness then, and not God's we see in the law and we see ourselves (the extent of our vision) and not the face of God. Often we think we do right and afterwards see it was not so. If it was God's righteousness at that time, God would be imperfect.

It is only in Christ that we can ever see the righteousness of God. But God is the gospel and the gospel is Christ, and so by the law can no man be accounted righteous. We must then have something more than the law to enable us to understand God's righteousness and to comprehend the law. That something "is Christ Jesus in whom is the fullness of the Godhead bodily." I read now Romans 10:13; here we have a people seeking earnestly for righteousness. Where? Their own. Did they find it? No.

Romans 9:31-32, being ignorant of Christ's righteousness.

They would not believe Christ or Paul, but sought it by the

works of the law. Now read verse 30; the Gentiles found it

having faith, and not being satisfied with their own

righteousness, as did the Pharisees who trusted in

themselves that they were righteous. This, too, is where the

law will bring us if we try to obtain righteousness through

it, but when having faith in Christ, a man sees his sins and

longs for the righteousness of God, knowing that it is the

goodness, purity and righteousness of Christ that makes

him so, he will become righteous.

Philippians 3:4-9: here was a Pharisee who lived up to the broadest view of the law of God he could obtain and was blameless, yet he gave it all up for Christ. Galatians 2:2; if "righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain," our own righteousness is all then we can get out of the law, and that the righteousness of God can come only by Jesus Christ. What is our own righteousness? Isaiah 64:5. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. What is sin?

When Israel came out of Egypt, they knew not God, remembering

only that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had a God, but knew

nothing more. To make them understand their condition and what sin was he took one of their own words and applied it to his purpose. He took a word meaning "missed its mark" and used it to express sin. Now we have all sinned and come short—that is what Paul means—we have "missed the mark." Then the more righteousness of the law a man has the worse he is off—the more ragged is he. Now turn to Zech. 3:1-8. Mrs. White declares this chapter to be a prophecy of this present time. Here we have Joshua standing clothed in his own righteousness and Christ takes it off and clothes him with the righteousness of God.

Now Joshua had been doing the best he could, but would he have

been saved? No. How often we hear people say "I do the best I can," and believe they will be saved. Joshua was reclothed and was to stand with the angels. If then our righteousness is all taken away and Christ clothes us with God's righteousness, then to walk in his law, we will stand with the angels. So then read Isa. 54:17, first part. Christ, in all his references in the New Testament, repeats only what God had already spoken. Now Isa. 61:10, that is the song we are to sing, therefore righteousness is the gift of God as surely as is life, and if we try to get it in any other way we shall fail. In Rom. 5:12-18, we read that as sin came by one, the righteousness of one brought the free gift of life upon men. So also Rom. 3:21-26, it was to declare God's righteousness that Christ came. Now taking Rom. 5:13-17 we find here a free gift and notice particularly verse 17.

Righteousness is the gift of life to everyone who believeth,

and Jesus Christ will ever be the purpose of the law to

everyone who believeth. It is Christ's obedience that avails

and not ours that brings righteousness to us. Well then let

us stop trying to do the will of God in our own strength.

Stop it all. Put it away from you for ever. Let Christ's

obedience do it all for you and gain the strength to pull the

bow so that you can hit the mark. Why did the Saviour came as an infant instead of a man? To die on the cross would have met the penalty. Because he lived a child and met all the temptations a child meets and never sinned—so that any child can stand in his place and resist in his strength; and he lived also as a youth, a man full grown, weaving for us a robe of righteousness to cover us (not to cover our filthy garments as that would be a mixture), takes the filthy garment away and puts his own in their place, so that all may have it if they will. Now if the righteousness is the gift of God, and comes by the gospel, then what is the use of the law?

There are several, but they may be used wrongfully. The law entered that the offence might abound, Rom. 3:19—the law speaks to sinners that all may become guilty before God to show people their guilt. Now verse 20, the law is to reveal sin to us-unrighteousness, not righteousness—Christ reveals the latter, the law the former.

The law of God cannot allow a single sin in any degree

whatever. If it did and condoned even a single thought that

was not perfect it would sink a soul into perdition. The law

is perfect. If it accepts imperfection the Lord must accept it

and admit that he is imperfect, because the law is the

representation of his character. In the fact that the law

demands perfection lies the hope of all mankind, because if

it could overlook a sin to a single degree, no one could ever

be free from sin, as the law would never make that sin known and it could never be forgiven, by which alone man can be saved. The day is coming when the law will have revealed the last sin and we will stand perfect before him and be saved with an eternal salvation. The perfection of the law of God is that it will show us all our sins, and then a perfect Saviour stands ready to take them all away.

....

[Gerr]

i asked a question and got what looks like a "sermon", hence the response.

not sure your text would apply....

I gave you an honest response to how I understood the question.

You took it upon yourself to interpret it as sermonizing or even a more sinister

motive of being "egotistical" or posing as "an expert." That, IMHO, is not

an act motivated by grace.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Of course that is Strong's opinion. However, there's a big, big problem with this view. Go to Gal 3:21

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

In other words if it was possible to obey the law perfectly then you could achieve life by obedience.

Verse 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world [the human race] is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed....

1 Cor 15:56 "Now the sting of death is sin [sin produces death]: and the power of sin is the law."

What does that mean? It means God's law legally puts us under sin and hence condemnation. The law requires death...the 2nd death. Thus it places you in prison (not under a nice trustworthy slave to keep one in check [how silly]).

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/319531/1.html

May 11, 1889 "The Sabbath Morning Sermon" #1

By A. T. Jones

Matt. 6:33—"Seek ye first . . . his righteousness," is the subject today. We notice first whose righteousness we are to seek. It is God's. We must seek and find it or we will not be saved. Nothing else will avail. We must know, however, where to seek for it and how, because we often seek for it in the wrong place; for instance, as many do, in the law of God, and through keeping it. We will never find it there.

That is not the place to seek for it. This is not saying that

the righteousness of God is not there. The commandments are the righteousness of God, but we will never find it there. In Rom. 2:17-18, we see that the law is clearly pointed out, through which, if we are instructed, we are called of God. Then they, being the will of God, it would be impossible for the Lord himself to be better than the ten commandments require us to be. The Lord's will must be the expression of what he is himself; hence it is impossible he should be better than his law. To keep his commandments, then, means that we shall be as good as God is, so we read in 1 John 3:7: "He that doeth righteousness, is righteous even as he is righteous."

Now see Psalms 119:138, Deuteronomy 6:35, Isaiah 59:7—the

people who do the law of God are righteous, even as God is

righteous, then to keep them means that man must be like God in character. Then the righteousness of God is in his law, but it is not revealed to men by the law. Romans 1:16- 17, the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel to men, and not in the law. It is in the law, but it is not revealed there to us because we are sinners, and sin has so darkened our mind that we can not see it there, and therefore our vision has to been lightened by some other means, which is the gospel, where we must seek for it, Romans 3:21.

The righteousness of God is made known without the law. How? By faith in Jesus Christ, through the gospel, and not by the law. Now read again Romans 1:16- 17, and this will be clear. To show this further, Romans 10:4. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Does not this say the same as the others? We have lost often the real point in this text to use it against those who claim the commandments are abolished, who claim Christ ended the law, and we claiming it means "the purpose of" the law, but the point in this text is that Christ is the purpose of the law "for righteousness" to us, as we can not get it by the law,

Romans 8:3.

The law was ordained to life, righteousness, holiness, justification, but because of sin it cannot be this to us, so what it cannot do Christ does for us. Then, if we seek it in the wrong place we lose the righteousness of Christ. Now, righteousness must come from the same source as does life; they are inseparable. Romans 8:3. Moses uses the terms here interchangeably, so also Gal. 3:21 showing that righteousness must come to us from the same source as life, and that is Christ. Romans 6:23: this we have always preached, but he said before this the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life, and so we have always claimed eternal life to be a gift, but we have not claimed the same for righteousness as being a gift through Jesus Christ.

Why was it necessary that something was given to have life? Because the wages of sin was death. If a law could give life, it would be by the law. If the law was a secondary form and God could have made another, and better, it would not suffice because if men could not keep an inferior law they could not keep a superior, consequently no law could give the life. Therefore Christ came to be the purpose of the law to everyone that believeth.

Now we want to see what righteousness there is in the law for us, and we will become convinced it is our own, which is the

very best we can ever get out of the law. If I take the

highest and most comprehensive view of the law I can, and live up to it, is that a satisfying of the law? No, because it is not a high enough view of it, because the mind is all darkened by sin, and man's comprehension is not broad enough to grasp the height and breadth of it, and so does not meet the requirements of the law. It is our own righteousness then, and not God's we see in the law and we see ourselves (the extent of our vision) and not the face of God. Often we think we do right and afterwards see it was not so. If it was God's righteousness at that time, God would be imperfect.

It is only in Christ that we can ever see the righteousness of God. But God is the gospel and the gospel is Christ, and so by the law can no man be accounted righteous. We must then have something more than the law to enable us to understand God's righteousness and to comprehend the law. That something "is Christ Jesus in whom is the fullness of the Godhead bodily." I read now Romans 10:13; here we have a people seeking earnestly for righteousness. Where? Their own. Did they find it? No.

Romans 9:31-32, being ignorant of Christ's righteousness.

They would not believe Christ or Paul, but sought it by the

works of the law. Now read verse 30; the Gentiles found it

having faith, and not being satisfied with their own

righteousness, as did the Pharisees who trusted in

themselves that they were righteous. This, too, is where the

law will bring us if we try to obtain righteousness through

it, but when having faith in Christ, a man sees his sins and

longs for the righteousness of God, knowing that it is the

goodness, purity and righteousness of Christ that makes

him so, he will become righteous.

Philippians 3:4-9: here was a Pharisee who lived up to the broadest view of the law of God he could obtain and was blameless, yet he gave it all up for Christ. Galatians 2:2; if "righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain," our own righteousness is all then we can get out of the law, and that the righteousness of God can come only by Jesus Christ. What is our own righteousness? Isaiah 64:5. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. What is sin?

When Israel came out of Egypt, they knew not God, remembering

only that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had a God, but knew

nothing more. To make them understand their condition and what sin was he took one of their own words and applied it to his purpose. He took a word meaning "missed its mark" and used it to express sin. Now we have all sinned and come short—that is what Paul means—we have "missed the mark." Then the more righteousness of the law a man has the worse he is off—the more ragged is he. Now turn to Zech. 3:1-8. Mrs. White declares this chapter to be a prophecy of this present time. Here we have Joshua standing clothed in his own righteousness and Christ takes it off and clothes him with the righteousness of God.

Now Joshua had been doing the best he could, but would he have

been saved? No. How often we hear people say "I do the best I can," and believe they will be saved. Joshua was reclothed and was to stand with the angels. If then our righteousness is all taken away and Christ clothes us with God's righteousness, then to walk in his law, we will stand with the angels. So then read Isa. 54:17, first part. Christ, in all his references in the New Testament, repeats only what God had already spoken. Now Isa. 61:10, that is the song we are to sing, therefore righteousness is the gift of God as surely as is life, and if we try to get it in any other way we shall fail. In Rom. 5:12-18, we read that as sin came by one, the righteousness of one brought the free gift of life upon men. So also Rom. 3:21-26, it was to declare God's righteousness that Christ came. Now taking Rom. 5:13-17 we find here a free gift and notice particularly verse 17.

Righteousness is the gift of life to everyone who believeth,

and Jesus Christ will ever be the purpose of the law to

everyone who believeth. It is Christ's obedience that avails

and not ours that brings righteousness to us. Well then let

us stop trying to do the will of God in our own strength.

Stop it all. Put it away from you for ever. Let Christ's

obedience do it all for you and gain the strength to pull the

bow so that you can hit the mark. Why did the Saviour came as an infant instead of a man? To die on the cross would have met the penalty. Because he lived a child and met all the temptations a child meets and never sinned—so that any child can stand in his place and resist in his strength; and he lived also as a youth, a man full grown, weaving for us a robe of righteousness to cover us (not to cover our filthy garments as that would be a mixture), takes the filthy garment away and puts his own in their place, so that all may have it if they will. Now if the righteousness is the gift of God, and comes by the gospel, then what is the use of the law?

There are several, but they may be used wrongfully. The law entered that the offence might abound, Rom. 3:19—the law speaks to sinners that all may become guilty before God to show people their guilt. Now verse 20, the law is to reveal sin to us-unrighteousness, not righteousness—Christ reveals the latter, the law the former.

The law of God cannot allow a single sin in any degree

whatever. If it did and condoned even a single thought that

was not perfect it would sink a soul into perdition. The law

is perfect. If it accepts imperfection the Lord must accept it

and admit that he is imperfect, because the law is the

representation of his character. In the fact that the law

demands perfection lies the hope of all mankind, because if

it could overlook a sin to a single degree, no one could ever

be free from sin, as the law would never make that sin known and it could never be forgiven, by which alone man can be saved. The day is coming when the law will have revealed the last sin and we will stand perfect before him and be saved with an eternal salvation. The perfection of the law of God is that it will show us all our sins, and then a perfect Saviour stands ready to take them all away.

....

Now, isn't that almost long enough for a "sermon?"

[teresaq]

your first post isnt worth arguing over

re: your next post, i wasnt asked a question. strange that you didnt see, or know the difference. i merely contributed jones thoughts to the thoughts thrown out to which they seemed to correspond, so im surprised in one way by such a response by you, but not surprised since it appears to be your normal reaction for dealing with certain situations.