"In Christ" what does that mean?

[pnattmbtc]

I had thought about it more in terms of what God is trying in terms of the presentation of the Gospel. However, when the Gospel is presented, that has the effect of illuminating sin, which gets to what Waggoner was talking about.

I wrote some more of my perspective on it in the Investigative Judgment thread. Karl's post got me to thinking about it.

[teresaq]

this, for me, is where we run into trouble when we get into either/or thinking, speaking generally and not to you specifically.

i think there is "garbage" attached to perspectives of the same event that need to be discarded but that there is also merit in the two i am thinking of. i dont know how many "perspectives" there are.

and i also think the "gospel" encompasses more than we may think. unfortunately the "gospel", and the ij, have been so filled with hate that some have had to reject them completely to save their sanity.

converts may not understand this as well as generationals.

[Robert]

My answer to your question, as to why I brought it up, is because it's true.

So there's not an ounce of selfishness in your life? Let's test this assumption! You up to it?

[Robert]

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.(Luke 9:23)

From this it seems undeniably clear that if we wish to be followers of Jesus, denying self is imperative.

Then that's salvation by works....After all you said "denying self is imperative"!

Yes, when it comes to the gospel we must deny that we can add one bit of works to His complete and finished work. That's true....

But what you are advocating is living Christ's selfless life (of which we are experiencing in varying degrees [see 2 Cor 3:7-18]).

Again, when you make such bold statements you must look what Christ means by this phrase. One of the best places in found in Matt 19:16-30

[Robert]

Tell Paul he is out of context because it was he who who said: "We know that our old self was crucified with him [for what purpose?] IN ORDER that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, SO THAT we would no longer be enslaved to sin." That's all in the same verse in 6:6!

When was our old self crucified? 2000 years ago! So it can't be talking of you the individual. Your humanity (we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam) died in Christ. Sunday morning Christ was raised with a sinless humanity free from all sin. He took this life to heaven. Hence, Paul tells us that "we are sitting in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

But let's go back to Rom 6:6

knowing this, that our old man [our life from Adam] was crucified with Him, that the body of sin [our old life] might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin....

You see Christ came to this world, "born of a woman, born under the law" to redeem those under law. The law points out sin and then it justly states "you must die"! And die we must.

I have accepted my death "in Christ" and therefore as far as the law is concerned I am dead, killed by the law itself. No longer am I under law.

Rom 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit....

While I personally am not dead to sin I nevertheless do experience growth. I am becoming less selfish, but as long as life shall last there will be no point I can come to and state "I have arrived"! Who said that? EGW! If we were free from sin (one's bent to self) then we wouldn't be sinning!!!!

[Robert]

Was he converted when he held the garments of those who stoned Stephen? ]

What did the OC require of one who blasphemed? Stoning....

He was obeying the OC law....Hence, even then, he saw himself as blameless (see Phil 3:6)

You see if you followed Christ Saul saw you as a blasphemer. After all you were following a man that claimed to be God. To Saul that was too much and such folks had to die.

Later, after conversion, he said:

1 tim 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly....

He thought he was doing God's will according to the book of the law.

[Robert]

"No, Jesus is not..." is not telling you to keep His commandments? To whom is He talking to?

Here's the context....We can discuss only if we stay to the immediate context:

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14

[pnattmbtc]

p:And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.(Luke 9:23)

From this it seems undeniably clear that if we wish to be followers of Jesus, denying self is imperative.

R:Then that's salvation by works.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I think this is the third time I'm asking you this:

Is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

My answer to your question, as to why I brought it up, is because it's true.

So there's not an ounce of selfishness in your life? Let's test this assumption! You up to it?

I asked you several times what difference my performance would make to whether a thing is true or not. Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

You're not quoting the context here. You're making it appear as if "because it's true" had something to do with my not being selfish, which it didn't. The subject was about Jesus' saying that we need to deny our self.

This isn't fair, Robert. You need to keep enough of the quote for a reader to know what the context is, and not make it seem like the writer said something he didn't.

[pnattmbtc]

If we were free from sin (one's bent to self) then we wouldn't be sinning!!!!

This is easily a demonstrably invalid argument. Consider the contrapositive. If one sins, then one must have a bent to self. Neither Satan, nor the angels who followed him, had a bent to self. Yet they sinned. Since the contrapositive is invalid, so is the original statement.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"No, Jesus is not..." is not telling you to keep His commandments? To whom is He talking to?

Here's the context....We can discuss only if we stay to the immediate context:

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

the key here seems to be abiding in Christ. do we abide in Christ every second of the day? or are we in and out of Christ, regardless of our intentions?

if i start out the morning "abiding in Christ" then im pretty much assured of "keeping the commandments". if i slip out of Christ, knowingly or unknowingly, at any point during the day, or in and out, then im pretty much assured of not "keeping the commandments".

so, it seems to me that my goal is to learn how to abide in Christ, that that should be my goal and concentration....

[Robert]

Robert, I think this is the third time I'm asking you this:

Is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

Yes, because you water down what you think this means and see yourself as whole no doubt. In other words why bring it up if you ain't doing it? Case closed.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.(Luke 9:23)

From this it seems undeniably clear that if we wish to be followers of Jesus, denying self is imperative.

R:Then that's salvation by works.

Jesus taught salvation by works?

Absolutely! But not as means, but rather to break one of their self-righteous attitude. He never gave the law as a means of salvation, but rather to make matters worse. Before you were a sinner, but when He gave the law now you became a transgressor.

Why did He then enter into the OC with Israel? Didn't God know they couldn't follow through? Yes, but they didn't know. He gave the law to expose humans that in them they are rotten. Even the so called good things we do are woven with the love of self.

Now, if you are ready, I can prove this using Matt chapter 19. Ready?

[Robert]

I asked you several times what difference my performance would make to whether a thing is true or not. Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.(Luke 9:23)

From this it seems undeniably clear that if we wish to be followers of Jesus, denying self is imperative.

R:Then that's salvation by works.

Jesus taught salvation by works?

Quote:

After all you said "denying self is imperative"!

Jesus said if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. I didn't say this. Jesus did!

Jesus said that to be a follower of His, we must deny our self. Right? I don't see that I said anything different than He did.

Quote:

Yes, when it comes to the gospel we must deny that we can add one bit of works to His complete and finished work. That's true.

This isn't what Jesus said. He said that if we would be a follower of His, we are to deny our self, take our cross, and follow Him.

Quote:

But what you are advocating is living Christ's selfless life (of which we are experiencing in varying degrees [see 2 Cor 3:7-18]).

I'm advocating what Jesus said, to deny our self, take up our cross daily, and follow Him.

Quote:

Again, when you make such bold statements you must look what Christ means by this phrase. One of the best places in found in Matt 19:16-30

I don't see how this would have Christ saying something different than if we are to be a follower of His we are to deny our self.

Does not denying self and taking up the cross mean turning from all "self effort" and relying solely on what Jesus has done for us by faith?

Does it not mean that to deny self is to step out from under the Old Covenant and to take up the cross (what Jesus did on the cross), is to take up the new covenant?

Where it is God that works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, and not us working?

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

the key here seems to be abiding in Christ. do we abide in Christ every second of the day? or are we in and out of Christ, regardless of our intentions?

if i start out the morning "abiding in Christ" then im pretty much assured of "keeping the commandments". if i slip out of Christ, knowingly or unknowingly, at any point during the day, or in and out, then im pretty much assured of not "keeping the commandments".

so, it seems to me that my goal is to learn how to abide in Christ, that that should be my goal and concentration....

How do you think the bible defines "abiding in Christ"?

What does that mean.

[Robert]

If one sins, then one must have a bent to self. Neither Satan, nor the angels who followed him, had a bent to self. Yet they sinned. Since the contrapositive is invalid, so is the original statement.

No, your statement is invalid! The Bible calls this a mystery....the mystery of iniquity. How could a sinless being develop this bent-to-self and then deceive 1/3 the angels? It can't be explain because if you could you could explain why it exist.

Rob

[Robert]

"Where are the self-denying, self-sacrificing ones? Where are the cross bearers? Self and self-interest have swallowed up high and noble principles." EGW

In another place EGW says that self-love and self-interests must go....She is talking about living a life of agape only. But did she herself experience this to its fullest extent?

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

[pnattmbtc]

Does not denying self and taking up the cross mean turning from all "self effort" and relying solely on what Jesus has done for us by faith?

Does it not mean that to deny self is to step out from under the Old Covenant and to take up the cross (what Jesus did on the cross), is to take up the new covenant?

Where it is God that works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, and not us working?

My understanding is like this. When God has one will, and our self has another will, a cross is formed. This was the ordeal Christ passed through. Christ also chose not to do His own will, but the will of His Father. He always denied Himself. As His followers, we are called upon to follow His example.

[Twilight]

Absolutely! But not as means, but rather to break one of their self-righteous attitude. He never gave the law as a means of salvation, but rather to make matters worse. Before you were a sinner, but when He gave the law now you became a transgressor.

Why did He then enter into the OC with Israel? Didn't God know they couldn't follow through? Yes, but they didn't know. He gave the law to expose humans that in them they are rotten. Even the so called good things we do are woven with the love of self.

Now, if you are ready, I can prove this using Matt chapter 19. Ready?

I think I agree with you here Robert on this point.

If this is what you are stating:

God gave the Old Covenant with the express intent to reveal to the Isrealites that they were totally incapable, within themselves and of themselves (by self) to keep Gods Law.

Is this what you are saying?

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

p:Robert, I think this is the third time I'm asking you this:

Is it is your position that we

1.Need not deny self.

2.Cannot deny self.

Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

R:Yes, because you water down what you think this means and see yourself as whole no doubt. In other words why bring it up if you ain't doing it? Case closed.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I asked you several times what difference my performance would make to whether a thing is true or not. Is there a reason you aren't answering this question?

R:Darn you are hard-headed.

[pnattmbtc]

p:If one sins, then one must have a bent to self. Neither Satan, nor the angels who followed him, had a bent to self. Yet they sinned. Since the contrapositive is invalid, so is the original statement.

R:No, your statement is invalid! The Bible calls this a mystery....the mystery of iniquity. How could a sinless being develop this bent-to-self and then deceive 1/3 the angels? It can't be explain because if you could you could explain why it exist.

I don't see that this makes any sense whatsoever. First of all, my point was that your argument was invalid. I showed your argument to be invalid by using a logical argument. Perhaps you don't understand logic, so you couldn't follow the argument I presented(?). I don't know, but if you did understand the argument I presented, the way to refute it is to show that either my proposition is false, or one of the logical steps used in the argument is invalid reasoning, and you did not even attempt to do either of these things.

As to how Satan developed a bent to sin, that's not hard to explain. Satan chose to follow his own independent will, rather then the will of God. Now as to *why* Satan chose to do so, that's where the mystery comes in. However, this has nothing to do with the argument I presented, which is a logical one. I was demonstrating that your argument was invalid.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"No, Jesus is not..." is not telling you to keep His commandments? To whom is He talking to?

Here's the context....We can discuss only if we stay to the immediate context:

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14

Immediate context and then forget about the rest of the chapter, the book, and the Bible?

And what does this commandment of love consist of? How do you show love to God? Serve idols? Take his name in vain? And love to your neighbor?By robbing him? Killing him?