Robert Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert if "agape" is working in a person it is working in them in all areas, isnt it? [/quote'] Gerry has said we do our best and Christ makes up the difference....He has said that if we show love (agape) we have fulfilled the law. I say anything that is done through "agape" is IN HARMONY with the essence of the law...what it is based on, which is agape. But to say that "agape" in not stealing (for example) means that I am also living a completely selfless life (a life where I am "servant of all" and I never live for myself, instead I totally deny self) is just not true. Not stealing because of agape is in harmony with the law, but doesn't fulfill the law as a whole. Quote
Robert Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert "love [agape] is the fulfillment of the law" Agape is the ingredient it takes to keep the law....Everything you do must be without self in mind....Hence the motive must be selfless. Romans 13: 10 is saying that if you really have agape/love for people and for God, you will fulfill the law. No it doesn't....It is saying that "agape" is the only ingredient to fulfill the law.....It doesn't say you are fulfilling the law. Why? "Love does no harm to its neighbor." Now who is your neighbor? The world....Do you live for your neighbor? Is hes welfare, yours? Christ lived not for himself (He denied self)....He was servant of all. He didn't build His wealth up (that would be self-seeking, which isn't agape)....He had that love that seeks not her own, but another's wealth. He fulfilled the whole law...all of it, not just parts of it like we do as we walk in the spirit....So no heaven by what we do..... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 ..It is saying that "agape" is the only ingredient to fulfill the law.....It doesn't say you are fulfilling the law. Why? "Love does no harm to its neighbor." I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that if you truly love your neighbor, you will do things to hurt him? If not, then you are saying that if we truly love our neighbor, we will obey the law as regards our relationship with all other people. You say that love does no harm to its neighbor. I agree. But I see that as the same thing as saying that if we love our neighbor, we will do the right thing by him. We won't do anything that God commands us not to do with regard to our treatment of others. The same thing applies to the first four commandments having to do with our love for God. If we love God truly, we will obey Him as regards our relationship to Him. Don't you agree? I don't imply that we can "fulfill" the law in the sense of not being a sinner or of earning merit with God. Rather, I'm using "fulfill" in the sense that we will be doing God's will if we have God's kind of love in our minds and hearts. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) Doesn't Ellen White say something either very similar or the same thing? But she is saying that Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything. The righteousness of Christ includes both His imputed AND His imparted righteousness. When she speaks of "our best," she's talking about works of faith-- or works that result from the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer who has a faith-based relationship with Christ. Let's suppose I say that I'm not going to do anything but that I am going to rely completely on Christ to do everything. Perhaps I'm convinced that it is legalistic for me to try and do any good works at all. In that case, I do nothing. It seems to me that this is exactly what Paul says in Romans 6: 1, 15 that we shouldn't do. We shouldn't feel that since we are saved by grace, we can be saved in our sins-- which is the same, in my view, as being saved without doing anything. Thoughts? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Where is there, in this quote, anything that Mark said which could be construed as his denying that "in Christ" we are complete? Mark, are we complete "in Christ"? Yes, no... Complete in Him, means to be complete in our "abiding in Him". Whereas you present it as being complete in our "justification" I believe. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
pnattmbtc Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 This is really good stuff, but by emphasizing this we open ourselves up to the criticisms leveled against Abelard - that we are too concerned with God's moral influence and not concerned enough with His legal solution in paying the debt we owe. I see God's addressing our past (though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow,) which we know we cannot affect, as liberating to our cooperation with Him in changing our present and future. Why would we cooperate with Him if the unchangeable past were hanging over us like a sword? What do you think? I think that in order to understand the solution, we need to understand the problem. I also think God is gracious enough to provide solutions to problems that we think we have. I think the real issue that involves us, is what EGW brings out in the quote. She also sets out the solution, describing it as the "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly ministry. I think it makes it much easier to conceptualize what Christ did if we think in these terms. That is, if, as EGW said, it really were the case that Christ's whole mission was "the revelation of God," then we can understand what His thinking was and what He prayed about when He got up so early. He was asking His Father, "How can I reveal You? How can I show others, so steeped in their traditions, and deceived by the enemy's lies and misrepresentations of You, what You are really like?" And then everything He did makes sense. The hearings, the teachings, everything for the purpose of revealing the Father. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Do you think it's a sin to want to be saved in God's kingdom and to live with Him? I ask this because it seems to me that wanting to be saved is having self in mind. This is an excellent question, and one not many think about. The answer to the question is that it depends upon the motivation. If your motivation for being saved in God's kingdom to live with God is strictly or primarily egocentric (i.e., you want to do this because it's something good for you), that's a sin just like any other egocentric desire is. However, if your thinking is something along the lines of, "Lord, I don't know what You see in Me. I don't know why You have such a desire that I spend eternity with You. I understand You took such a great risk, or paid such a great price, but given Your desire for me is so strong, and You gave so much for Me, it is my desire not to frustrate Your grace, nor to have Your sacrifice to have been in vain for me, so my desire is to respond to your wishes, and spend eternity with You," then it's not a sin. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert So, if I do not kill because "agape" is working in me, but I commit adultery, steal, lie, lust and covet, then I am counted a law keeper? [/quote']i was completely lost on that one. if "agape" is working in a person and they dont kill, wouldnt that same "agape" "working in them" keep them from stealing, lying, lusting and coveting? if "agape" is working in a person it is working in them in all areas, isnt it? Exactly!!! Per James, you break one and you break them all! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc I'm sure what karl means is that the good news of salvation includes the work that Christ does in us, as well as the good news of what Christ accomplished. No...that implies Christ's work of redemption was incomplete. This was the message of the Judaizers....It's subtle legalism. Just look around & within you. Is Christ's work of redemption complete? Are you free of corruption? We are still living in a cesspool of sin! The sacrifice at the Cross was complete. There is nothing that could be added to it. But to say that redemption was completed at the Cross is deny the fact that sin is still very much present and the earth made new is not yet a reality. At-one-ment in God's universe is still future. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If we are saved solely by what Jesus did 2000 yrs ago and nothing else to be done, THEN ALL should be saved. YES or NO? [/quote'] If we are saved by living Christ's life then none will be saved.... NO ONE is saved on the BASIS that they are living Christ's life! NEITHER will anyone be saved unless walking in Christ's steps. Walking in His steps is the proof/evidence that a person is "in Christ" and that Christ is "in" the believer. The moon will NEVER perfectly reflect the light of the sun. Therefore the believer reflecting the glory of the Son can NEVER be the BASIS of his acceptance with God. But the Apostle John clearly says, " Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him," 1 Jn 2:4 ESV. You keep confusing the evidence that one is saved for the basis of one's salvation. Not so!!! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 30, 2009 Moderators Posted December 30, 2009 I like that. Thanks. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc I'm sure what karl means is that the good news of salvation includes the work that Christ does in us, as well as the good news of what Christ accomplished. No...that implies Christ's work of redemption was incomplete. This was the message of the Judaizers....It's subtle legalism. No, it doesn't. You didn't understand my point, which is that karl is using the phrase "good news" differently than you are. You're using it as a theological construct. He's not. He's simply saying that a.What Christ accomplished for us 2,000 years ago is good news. b.What He does for us not is good news. Wouldn't you agree that what Christ does in our lives is good news? I'm sure you would. Your point isn't that this isn't good news, but that it's not what our justification is based on. Our legal justification is entirely outside or ourselves. This is your point, but karl wasn't addressing this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
karl Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Do you think it's a sin to want to be saved in God's kingdom and to live with Him? I ask this because it seems to me that wanting to be saved is having self in mind. "The waters of the fountain are freely opened for you; and will you drink? Will you come? Will you obey the gracious invitation? Come, for all things are now ready. Whosoever will, let him come and partake of the waters of life freely. It is now that we want childlike simplicity. We want to see everything like pride, and vanity, and folly, put away. We have the Judgement in view. Men and women will want strength that is greater than any human aid to lean upon. They must lean upon the mighty arm of Jehovah. We have in view that day when the works of men are to be tried, and tested; and we want you to get ready. We make appeals to you, in the name of our Master, to get ready. We make appeals to you to rid yourselves of the pride of the world, the pride, and vanity, and folly, of life. Jesus loves you. Jesus pities you. The angelic host he sends to minister unto you. And now, while all Heaven is interested for you, will you be interested for yourselves? Will you begin to seek God earnestly for your own salvation? Will you work it out with fear and trembling? Will you be careful how you step before God?..." The Review and Herald, August 17, 1869 Quote
teresaq Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Do you think it's a sin to want to be saved in God's kingdom and to live with Him? I ask this because it seems to me that wanting to be saved is having self in mind. I think if a drowning man is thrown a rope to hold on to in order to be rescued, there's no harm in his thinking of himself and of how He wants to be saved. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert If we are saved by living Christ's life then none will be saved.... [/quote'] NO ONE is saved on the BASIS that they are living Christ's life! NEITHER will anyone be saved unless walking in Christ's steps. Walking in His steps is the proof/evidence that a person is "in Christ" and that Christ is "in" the believer. The moon will NEVER perfectly reflect the light of the sun. Therefore the believer reflecting the glory of the Son can NEVER be the BASIS of his acceptance with God. But the Apostle John clearly says, " Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him," 1 Jn 2:4 ESV. You keep confusing the evidence that one is saved for the basis of one's salvation. Not so!!! i understand what you are saying gerry, but i also understand what robert is saying, not so very well. (sorry, bro, but it isnt coming across well at all!!) i think egws article on "Danger of False Ideas on Justification by Faith MS - 36 - 1890" might explain it. it is a difficult concept to grasp. at least it has been for me. Quote: Chap. 104 - Danger of False Ideas on Justification by Faith MS - 36 - 1890 The danger has been presented to me again and again of entertaining, as a people, false ideas of justification by faith. I have been shown for years that Satan would work in a special manner to confuse the mind on this point. The law of God has been largely dwelt upon, and has been presented to congregations, almost as destitute of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His relation to the law as was the offering of Cain. I have been shown that many have been kept from the faith because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, because the ministers have worked in a wrong manner to reach hearts. The point which has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ. I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me, and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people. {1888 810.3} Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) i think you did a good job in making that clear!! :) Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Just look around & within you. Is Christ's work of redemption complete? Are you free of corruption? We are still living in a cesspool of sin! The sacrifice at the Cross was complete. There is nothing that could be added to it. But to say that redemption was completed at the Cross is deny the fact that sin is still very much present and the earth made new is not yet a reality. At-one-ment in God's universe is still future. i especially like the bolded part. for me the problem has been understanding the meaning behind the words. one would think that comprehension should be fairly easy, but given the two facts, that spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and that we have an enemy who grabs or dims any "ray" that comes through..... but ive been really getting this the last couple of days. at one, in sync. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Doesn't Ellen White say something either very similar or the same thing? No, that's heresy....It's 100% what Christ did in my humanity 2000 years ago..... Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Mark, are we complete "in Christ"? Yes, no... [/quote'] Complete in Him, means to be complete in our "abiding in Him". Mark No...that's not what it means....What you are presenting is "Christ in you".... Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert No...that implies Christ's work of redemption was incomplete. This was the message of the Judaizers....It's subtle legalism. [/quote'][color:blue] Just look around & within you. Is Christ's work of redemption complete? I don't need to look around...my humanity is "in Christ" and in the heavenly places....In Him I am complete....One day I'll receive all that is true "in Him", but for now I stand positively righteous before God's holy law "in Him" Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert No...that implies Christ's work of redemption was incomplete. This was the message of the Judaizers....It's subtle legalism. No, it doesn't.[/quote'] No, it does! Quote: Wouldn't you agree that what Christ does in our lives is good news? Yes, it's good as a witness...but it doesn't add to his perfect work 2000 years ago. Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 The point which has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ . I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me, and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people. {1888 810.3} Bingo! Not what He does in us (imparted), but "imputed"...what He did 2000 years ago. Quote
Robert Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 At-one-ment in God's universe is still future. Sure, we have accepted that "in Christ" we are complete....This we have by faith, not reality yet....By that I mean that we haven't received all that we have "in Christ".....When we do then we have it in reality....We will be sinless.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Quote: I'm sure what karl means is that the good news of salvation includes the work that Christ does in us, as well as the good news of what Christ accomplished. No...that implies Christ's work of redemption was incomplete. This was the message of the Judaizers....It's subtle legalism. No, it doesn't. No, it does! No, it doesn't! It seems rather silly to quote a little snippet from a response, wresting it completely from its context. If you wish to respond to something I've written, please include some context! Look at what we have here. Quote: No, it doesn't. No, it does! No, it doesn't! Doesn't seem like much of a conversation. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted December 31, 2009 Posted December 31, 2009 Quote: In examining my writings fifteen and twenty years old [i find that they] present the matter in this same light--that those who enter upon the solemn, sacred work of the ministry should first be given a preparation in lessons upon the teachings of Christ and the apostles in living principles of practical godliness. They are to be educated in regard to what constitutes earnest, living faith. Many young men are sent forth to labor, who do not understand the plan of salvation and what true conversion is; in fact they need to be converted. We need to be enlightened on this point, and the ministers need to be educated to dwell more particularly upon subjects which explain true conversion. This (above) immediately follows the following paragraph: Quote: The point which has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ. I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me, and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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