"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

Salvation is all about God working in you to do what is impossible on your own. Christ in you.

No we don't see it in ourselves or others, but we believe in it and cooperate with God by faith knowing that it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That's salvation by what the HS does in you! That's what Catholics teach...infused righteousness....God actually makes you righteous so He can take you to heaven.

Paul teaches that we are righteous through faith in what Christ did 2000 years ago....Yes, we grow, but that does not contribute to our standing in Christ....

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, but I think I am taking it beyond what you said above.

I have absolutely no Scripture or SOP to support this other than generic statements about God's foreknowledge, but I believe God knows, before we are born, whether we will be saved.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Salvation is all about God working in you to do what is impossible on your own. Christ in you.

No we don't see it in ourselves or others, but we believe in it and cooperate with God by faith knowing that it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That's salvation by what the HS does in you! That's what Catholics teach...infused righteousness....God actually makes you righteous so He can take you to heaven.

Paul teaches that we are righteous through faith in what Christ did 2000 years ago....Yes, we grow, but that does not contribute to our standing in Christ....

"The law of God is the only true standard of moral perfection. That law was practically exemplified in the life of Christ. He says of Himself, "I have kept my Father's commandments" (John 15:10). Nothing short of this obedience will meet the requirements of God's word. "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6). We cannot plead that we are unable to do this, for we have the assurance, "My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Corinthians 12:9). As we look into the divine mirror, the law of God, we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and our own lost condition as transgressors. But by repentance and faith we are justified before God, and through divine grace enabled to render obedience to His commandments." The Sanctified Life (1889), page 80, paragraph 3

[Robert]

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you (Paul is addressing believers), who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Christ reconciled the world...the human race. Christ has done it all, yet some will say "I am perfectly able to save my own self through the HS" and will be lost. Why? They think the HS works opposite Christ and goes against the gospel. The HS will never work in any man, woman or child if that person thinks he/she is gaining heaven though his/her performance - even what they say the HS does in them....Why? It denies the atonement....It denies Christ's work was perfect...it was finished...and therefore one cannot add to it....All you can do is experience it.

[Just*]

Quote:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

2 Timothy 1:9

[Robert]

"But by repentance and faith we are justified before God, and through divine grace enabled to render obedience to His commandments....

If she means we grow, okay....If not then she is teaching a subtle form of legalism.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: karl

Salvation is all about God working in you to do what is impossible on your own. Christ in you.

No we don't see it in ourselves or others, but we believe in it and cooperate with God by faith knowing that it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That's salvation by what the HS does in you! That's what Catholics teach...infused righteousness....God actually makes you righteous so He can take you to heaven.

Paul teaches that we are righteous through faith in what Christ did 2000 years ago....Yes, we grow, but that does not contribute to our standing in Christ....

Our problem is not one of legal standing, but of having hearts which love sin and hate God.

[pnattmbtc]

Legalism is not believing that one can, by faith, obey God's commandments, nor the belief that righteousness by faith involves the writing of the law in the heart and mind, but the idea that we can gain favor, or righteousness, by our own efforts to keep the law.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Robert: And what happens if I fail to keep the commandments - what then?

Gerry: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, Rom 5:20 "

So even though I might be experiencing Romans 7 I am saved by faith in Christ and not the works of the law?

We have gone over the man of Rom 7 at some length before. I am thoroughly convinced that he is NOT a saved man, for these reasons:

1. He claims "I am of the flesh, sold under sin," Rom 7:14. "To set the mind on the flesh is death,: 8:6, "hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law," & "cannot please God," 8:7

2. Slave to sin, he does what sin tells him to do even though he hates it, 7:15. Saved people have "been set free from sin, [and] have become slaves of righteousness," 6:18. IOW, they do the right thing that righteousness tells them to do instead of evil that sin tells them to do.

3. He is indwelt by sin, 7:17, and "nothing good dwells in me," 7:18. Saved people are indwelt by the Trinity who are inherently good, 8:10-11.

4. "Wretched" and in need of deliverance. Saved people have been "set free" 6:18 and can't be wretched because they are under no condemnation, 8:1; they have peace with God, 5:1

Although they may fail to "measure up" to the full requirements of the law, and as Paul points out in 1 Cor 10:1-6, they "do not desire [epithumetes lust, longs for, craves, loves, eager for, evil]

[karl]

Christ reconciled the world...the human race. Christ has done it all, yet some will say "I am perfectly able to save my own self through the HS"

Some may say this, but I am not saying it.

I am saying that God is able to present me faultless before His glorious throne by His power working in me. He does the works, but He does not do this without my consent and cooperation.

Be careful not to bag on the work of the Holy Spirit. Bad things happen.

[Robert]

Our problem is ...having hearts which love sin and hate God.

Sorry, that's not my problem....My heart/mind loves God and hates sin, but my nature loves self and wants to take God off His throne.

[Robert]

Legalism is not believing that one can, by faith, obey God's commandments....

Legalism is preoccupation with the law....Legalism is thinking you have arrived and are fully keeping the law.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

They'll be taken to heaven according to their ability to develop a character which would be in harmony with heaven.

Nonsense!

It's not my nature to use such words as this usually Robert. But this time you hit the nail on the head.

[Robert]

He claims "I am of the flesh, sold under sin," Rom 7:14.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

He claims "I am of the flesh, sold under sin," Rom 7:14.

Are you free of all sin? No love of self...no self-seeking...no self-interests? No? Then you are of flesh and still bent to self....

There is a world of difference between "sold under sin" "slave to sin" and someone who makes a mistake, or even falls short while trying to comply. It's all in the heart.

Quote:

"To set the mind on the flesh is death,: 8:6, "hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law," & "cannot please God," 8:7

Nope, the man of Romans 7 "loves God's law according to the inward man"....His heart is in harmony with God....

A person can believe in their inmost heart/mind in something and still be wrong or still has not allowed the Spirit to come in.

No doubt even the Scribes & Pharisees loved the law.

Quote:

Saved people have "been set free from sin

Delusional....See 1 John 1:8.....Saved folks are becoming less selfish....Not selfless. Try again!

Then the Paul you like to quote must be delusional because it was he who said:

17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:17-18 ESV.

[Gerr]

P.S.

Do you love Jesus? Then obey His commandments. It's not legalism to do so.

[Guest]

Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Our problem is ...having hearts which love sin and hate God.

R:Sorry, that's not my problem....My heart/mind loves God and hates sin, but my nature loves self and wants to take God off His throne.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Legalism is not believing that one can, by faith, obey God's commandments....

Legalism is preoccupation with the law....Legalism is thinking you have arrived and are fully keeping the law.

[karl]

Quoting AT Jones:

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power—the power of sin—that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fulness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all; it is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

I love this. It is so logical and clear.

[Guest]

Yes it is.

[Robert]

There is a world of difference between "sold under sin" "slave to sin" and someone who makes a mistake, or even falls short while trying to comply. It's all in the heart.

[Robert]

P.S.

Do you love Jesus? Then obey His commandments. It's not legalism to do so.

Okay...then obey Jesus in Matthew 5:48; Luke 12:33, etc....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:Our problem is ...having hearts which love sin and hate God.

R:Sorry, that's not my problem....My heart/mind loves God and hates sin, but my nature loves self and wants to take God off His throne.

Through the grace of God, we can deny our self.

Have you completely denied self or is there still self-love, self-seeking, self-interests in your life? IF not why talk about something that you aren't fully achieving?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Quoting AT Jones:

No man ever yet naturally found it difficult to do wrong. His great difficulty has always been to do right. But this is because man naturally is enslaved to a power—the power of sin—that is absolute in its reign. And so long as that power has sway, it is not only difficult but impossible to do the good that he knows and that he would. But let a mightier power than that have sway, then is it not plain enough that it will be just as easy to serve the will of the mightier power, when it reigns, as it was to serve the will of the other power when it reigned?

But grace is not simply more powerful than is sin. If this were indeed all, even then there would be fulness of hope and good cheer to every sinner in the world. But this, good as it would be, is not all; it is not nearly all. There is much more power in grace than there is in sin. For "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." And just as much more power in grace than there is in sin, just so much more hope and good cheer there are for every sinner in the world.

I love this. It is so logical and clear.

agreed!