"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does not denying self and taking up the cross mean turning from all "self effort" and relying solely on what Jesus has done for us by faith?

Does it not mean that to deny self is to step out from under the Old Covenant and to take up the cross (what Jesus did on the cross), is to take up the new covenant?

Where it is God that works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, and not us working?

My understanding is like this. When God has one will, and our self has another will, a cross is formed. This was the ordeal Christ passed through. Christ also chose not to do His own will, but the will of His Father. He always denied Himself. As His followers, we are called upon to follow His example.

When I consider the command of taking up our cross, which cross is it referring to?

Is it "our" cross, our own "suffering"?

"Take up your suffering and follow me? Take up all your misery and follow me?

Or is it the "cross" that Jesus bore, and by us taking up "that cross", we are entering into the experience of the "merits" of Christ...

Simply put, taking up "our" cross, is taking up by faith what Jesus has done for us.

This then removes all self effort and encourages us to daily appropriate the merits of Christ, which gives us the death to sin and living awareness of God that Paul talks about in Romans 6.

We take up that which "Jesus has done for us" in other words, that which He accomplished "on the cross".

Mark :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

My understanding is like this. When God has one will, and our self has another will, a cross is formed. This was the ordeal Christ passed through. Christ also chose not to do His own will, but the will of His Father. He always denied Himself. As His followers, we are called upon to follow His example.

When I consider the command of taking up our cross, which cross is it referring to?

Is it "our" cross, our own "suffering"?

"Take up your suffering and follow me? Take up all your misery and follow me?

Or is it the "cross" that Jesus bore, and by us taking up "that cross", we are entering into the experience of the "merits" of Christ...

Simply put, taking up "our" cross, is taking up by faith what Jesus has done for us.

This then removes all self effort and encourages us to daily appropriate the merits of Christ, which gives us the death to sin and living awareness of God that Paul talks about in Romans 6.

We take up that which "Jesus has done for us" in other words, that which He accomplished "on the cross".

Mark :-)

I think Christ was very clear that we are to bring our suffering to Him for relief. Come unto me all ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. I think He was referring primarily to spiritual burdens, but He also healed physical burdens.

Re: Take up your cross, we have to understand Christ's words in the background of the culture. "Take up your cross" meant only one thing in that culture. It meant crucifixion - to give up your life, your plans, your aspirations and follow Him. He also put it like this: sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and come, follow Me.

If this is not denial of self, I don't know what is.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Tell Paul he is out of context because it was he who who said: "We know that our old self was crucified with him [for what purpose?] IN ORDER that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, SO THAT we would no longer be enslaved to sin." That's all in the same verse in 6:6!

When was our old self crucified? 2000 years ago! So it can't be talking of you the individual. Your humanity (we all share one humanity - the fallen life of Adam) died in Christ. Sunday morning Christ was raised with a sinless humanity free from all sin. He took this life to heaven. Hence, Paul tells us that "we are sitting in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

But let's go back to Rom 6:6

knowing this, that our old man [our life from Adam] was crucified with Him, that the body of sin [our old life] might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin....

You see Christ came to this world, "born of a woman, born under the law" to redeem those under law. The law points out sin and then it justly states "you must die"! And die we must.

I have accepted my death "in Christ" and therefore as far as the law is concerned I am dead, killed by the law itself. No longer am I under law.

Rom 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit....

While I personally am not dead to sin I nevertheless do experience growth. I am becoming less selfish, but as long as life shall last there will be no point I can come to and state "I have arrived"! Who said that? EGW! If we were free from sin (one's bent to self) then we wouldn't be sinning!!!!

Would you kindly PRODUCE one text where "released from the law" means released from obedience to it? ONE TEXT PLEASE?

As I have asked you in other threads and never got an answer, I ask you again, does growth mean MORE OBEDIENT or LESS OBEDIENT to the law? If neither, WHAT IS IT?

[SivartM]

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Robert

[

Rom 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit....

While I personally am not dead to sin I nevertheless do experience growth. I am becoming less selfish, but as long as life shall last there will be no point I can come to and state "I have arrived"! Who said that? EGW! If we were free from sin (one's bent to self) then we wouldn't be sinning!!!!

Would you kindly PRODUCE one text where "released from the law" means released from obedience to it? ONE TEXT PLEASE?

As I have asked you in other threads and never got an answer, I ask you again, does growth mean MORE OBEDIENT or LESS OBEDIENT to the law? If neither, WHAT IS IT?

I'm curious as to what you might think keeping the spirit of the law might mean?

I would think that keeping the spirit would be a higher calling than simply keeping the letter. But I don't think you could keep the spirit without keeping the letter. I can't see any way you could love your brother and yet steal, kill or covet.

Romans 7:6

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

[Gerr]

Quote:

the key here seems to be abiding in Christ. do we abide in Christ every second of the day? or are we in and out of Christ, regardless of our intentions?

if i start out the morning "abiding in Christ" then im pretty much assured of "keeping the commandments". if i slip out of Christ, knowingly or unknowingly, at any point during the day, or in and out, then im pretty much assured of not "keeping the commandments".

so, it seems to me that my goal is to learn how to abide in Christ, that that should be my goal and concentration....

That is probably why the warning over & over: "Watch & pray!"

1 Pet 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. ESV.

And -

Heb 2:1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

[teresaq]

that is your understanding of abiding in Jesus? :)

[teresaq]

Rom 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit....

While I personally am not dead to sin I nevertheless do experience growth. I am becoming less selfish, but as long as life shall last there will be no point I can come to and state "I have arrived"! Who said that? EGW! If we were free from sin (one's bent to self) then we wouldn't be sinning!!!!

[pnattmbtc]

Re: Take up your cross, we have to understand Christ's words in the background of the culture. "Take up your cross" meant only one thing in that culture. It meant crucifixion - to give up your life, your plans, your aspirations and follow Him. He also put it like this: sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and come, follow Me.

I like what karl wrote in response to what taking up one's cross means.

[Robert]

God gave the Old Covenant with the express intent to reveal to the Isrealites that they were totally incapable, within themselves and of themselves (by self) to keep Gods Law.

Is this what you are saying?

Mark

Yes, and Matthew chapter 19 is a perfect example of how God uses OC principles to try and bring the self-righteous to repentance.

[Robert]

I don't understand this comment. My question is if it is your position what we need not deny self, or cannot deny self? Would you please answer this question?

The fact that one accepts Christ means that he must deny self because in order to accept Christ one has to view himself as completely undone. He must admit, as did Paul, "I know in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good."

The proud...the self-righteous will never do this....They'll say, "why should I accepted Christ?"...."After all I'm good to my family...my kids. I keep the rules of my government...I don't steal...I don't murder...I don't cheat on my wife....Why do I need Christ?"

That's why Christ said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." [Luke 5:32]

But if you mean living a selfless life (as did Christ) in order to gain heaven, then you are denying that you are already complete "in Christ"! That is a self-righteous stance and the one who believes this is not denying self....

Think it out....If you can add, by your self-denial as it pertains to the law, then you are not denying your nature. You are feeding it....You are saying Christ did so much and now I, even through the Spirit, do the rest....

[Robert]

Here's your reasoning:

Me:The Bible says Saturday is the Sabbath.

You:Are you keeping Sabbath?

No, it's not the same.....Apples and oranges dude...apples and oranges...

[Robert]

As to how Satan developed a bent to sin, that's not hard to explain. Satan chose to follow his own independent will, rather then the will of God.

Why would Lucifer's will be outside God's will? As to Christ's will being outside, that's easy to understand because He assumed our humanity indwelt with our bent-to-self.....Our humanity told Christ "don't do it...don't die for these sinners...screw them...save yourself...you come first...to heck with these guys...love yourself man!" But what did Christ do? He said, "Not my will, but yours"....

Lucifer didn't have this bent-to-self to contend with....So it was very unnatural for him to sin....That's why it is a mystery. How could a sinless being, who by nature lives for others only, take a u-turn and become bent-to-self? No one knows....So your original point is invalid!

[Robert]

And what does this commandment of love consist of? How do you show love to God? Serve idols? Take his name in vain? And love to your neighbor?By robbing him? Killing him?

The Judaizers and Pharisees did these things....But Christ said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." And He sums it up by saying, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

[Robert]

I think He was referring primarily to spiritual burdens, but He also healed physical burdens.

No, Christ was speaking to the Jews who were in bondage to the yoke of legalism....They had no peace...no hope...no assurance, just law, law, law....He offered them His righteousness instead....

[Robert]

Would you kindly PRODUCE one text where "released from the law" means released from obedience to it?

I've already given you many....If you are still under the law as it pertains to obedience you immediately come back under its curse for you are failing to meet its highest demands.....It's a vicious cycle....

[Robert]

I'm curious as to what you might think keeping the spirit of the law might mean?

If you could have been in heaven before sin and you walked up to an angel and said, "Don't sin!" the angel would have said, "What's sin?"

Why? There was no law posted in the center of town that said "do no steal...do not kill" (letter of the law) or "do not covet...do not hate" (spirit of the law). They were created in the likeness and image of God meaning they were created with a nature in harmony with agape love - a love that is not self-seeking!

The spirit of the law is simply agape.....

[Robert]

Quote:

He also put it like this: sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and come, follow Me.

I like what karl wrote in response to what taking up one's cross means.

But who has done this? And remember it must be done with no self in mind for it to be true righteousness! See 1 Cor 13:3

[Gerr]

that is your understanding of abiding in Jesus?

If you mean that I am lost every time I am not thinking about Christ or make a mistake, then the answer is, NO.

To abide means to remain. The grafted scion or twig has to remain attached, receive the life-giving sap in order to survive. How long can the graft be without the sap before it dies? The devil uses all kinds of distractions, even things that are good in themselves, just to take our eyes off Christ. That's why in Hebrews the counself is to pay attention lest we drift away.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Would you kindly PRODUCE one text where "released from the law" means released from obedience to it?

I've already given you many....

I can't seem to remember any. Kindly refresh my memory. If you have given many, surely you can repeat at least one. You have no problem repeating over and over that we died in Christ 2000 yrs ago, surely you can indulge on just one?

Quote:

If you are still under the law as it pertains to obedience you immediately come back under its curse for you are failing to meet its highest demands......

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if I obey what the law says, I come back under its curse because I fail to fully meet what it requires? While if I live a lawless life, I am delivered from its curse? IOW, citizens who try to keep the laws of the land albeit imperfectly should all go to jail while the lawless should all be free?

Or another way of saying it is: Obey and you fall away from grace? Continue in disobedience to remain under grace?

Quote:

It's a vicious cycle....

Yeah, it's a vicious cycle because no matter how many times your arguments have been debunked, you keep bringing the same arguments as though nothing happened before!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does this commandment of love consist of? How do you show love to God? Serve idols? Take his name in vain? And love to your neighbor?By robbing him? Killing him?

The Judaizers and Pharisees did these things....But Christ said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." And He sums it up by saying, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Ok, how can I have a righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees who seemed to have been doing those things? By bowing to idols? Stealing? Fornicating? Killing?

[Robert]

I can't seem to remember any. Kindly refresh my memory.

Romans 7:6 is one....Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: karl

I think He was referring primarily to spiritual burdens, but He also healed physical burdens.

No, Christ was speaking to the Jews who were in bondage to the yoke of legalism....They had no peace...no hope...no assurance, just law, law, law....He offered them His righteousness instead....

And what does the righteousness of Christ consist of? Serving idols? Bearing false witness? Fornicating? Killing?"

"Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 ESV

[Robert]

And what does the righteousness of Christ consist of? Serving idols? Bearing false witness? Fornicating? Killing?

Imputed righteousness Gerry....And why is it you only bring up the letter of the law when you speak of sin? There's much more to the law than the mere letter ...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does the righteousness of Christ consist of? Serving idols? Bearing false witness? Fornicating? Killing?

Imputed righteousness Gerry....And why is it you only bring up the letter of the law when you speak of sin? There's much more to the law than the mere letter that you quote.....

Am I? And what does the imputed righteousness consist of? Disobedience? If you ignore the letter of the law, how then can you obey the spirit? Let's forget the letter for the moment. Are YOU, am I enjoined to obey the spirit of the law?