Judgemental Adventists

[Dr. Shane]

I have heard some people claim that Adventists are more judgmental than other denominations. I think that claim is made because in that person's experience, they have encountered more judgmental people within Adventism than they have in other denominations.

I think part of this is the belief Adventists have that we hold the end-time truth. Now that doesn't mean we must be judgmental but I think it makes us a little more inclined to be judgmental.

I have know people that belonged to other churches that believe they have the "truth" that also display the same kind of judgmentalism that Adventists are accused of. I have met some that are Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witness and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans that displayed the same type of judgmentalism.

However I do not believe that all, or even most, Adventists are judgmental. I think it is a small minority of members in the church that make enough noise that they appear to be more numerous than they really are. I believe most Adventists are loving, compassionate Christians that honestly care about other people.

[teresaq]

I believe most Adventists are loving, compassionate Christians that honestly care about other people.

ive met about 10 or so of those in person in my 59 years. could you point out the others?

i think its best not to get into a defensive position regarding the church. ive found its much better to admit that, yes, there are those who really make the church look bad, and then try to (first learn positive ways to respond, praying for how to respond would be a good start) point to a more beneficial way to think.

notice there was no arguing nor defending the church, here. they have their feelings, dont try to rip them away.

notice i didnt say tell them how they should think....its something one has to learn and as i said asking God how to respond, well ive found He, many times would say things much differently than i had in mind.

just some thoughts. :)

[Outta Here]

Thank you for sharing your opinions on the matter as well. Your opinions are equally as valuable as are others'. Each of us forms our opinions based on our own experiences and observations.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Never have I encountered such judgmentalism in Adventism as I have here in this Forum lately. As I said in my thread on leaving the church, I'm embarrassed to be known as an Adventist. Witches and other pagans that I have known never even came close to being so judgmental as I have found here. That said, there are also some very fine people on this forum and that's why I stay.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I believe most Adventists are loving, compassionate Christians that honestly care about other people.

[olger]

I know many dear Adventists who take this message seriously and love the Lord's appearing.

I have also noticed that the people who are most susceptible to denominational bitterness and dissatisfaction are multi-generational members. Almost never, was a first generation member caught up in the turmoil of the 1980's surrounding the work of Walter Rea, Desmond Ford and the Brinsmead brothers. Evidently, having a generational heritage subjects one to certain hazards of the faith.

I note this not with any desire to condemn, but to observe.

rejoice always,

oG

[Gerr]

While there ARE obnoxious SDAs, communication is not just about the message sender; it also has to do with the receiver. Even when a SDA shares the truth in love, it may come across or interpreted as being judgmental because there are truths we hold & share that cuts across many errors that non-SDAs hold dear.

As loving as Christ was, the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees & the priests considered Him obnoxious.

[Steve Billiter]

While there ARE obnoxious SDAs, communication is not just about the message sender; it also has to do with the receiver. Even when a SDA shares the truth in love, it may come across or interpreted as being judgmental because there are truths we hold & share that cuts across many errors that non-SDAs hold dear.

As loving as Christ was, the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees & the priests considered Him obnoxious.

How very true. Often times it is a rising up against the testimony of the True Witness. Charges are made of legalism and liberalism which are manifested in personal attacks.

It is that same spirit of blaming others that originated with Adam and Eve.

When the woman was asked, "What is this that thou hast done?" she answered, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." "Why didst Thou create the serpent? Why didst Thou suffer him to enter Eden?"--these were the questions implied in her excuse for her sin. Thus, like Adam, she charged God with the responsibility of their fall. The spirit of self-justification originated in the father of lies; it was indulged by our first parents as soon as they yielded to the influence of Satan, and has been exhibited by all the sons and daughters of Adam. Instead of humbly confessing their sins, they try to shield themselves by casting the blame upon others, upon circumstances, or upon God--making even His blessings an occasion of murmuring against Him. {PP 58.1}

Only Jesus has the cure!

Chap. 32 - The Shaking

November 20, 1857, I was shown the people of God, and saw them mightily shaken. Some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, were pleading with God. Their countenances were pale, and marked with deep anxiety, expressive of their

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internal struggle. Firmness and great earnestness were expressed in their countenances, while large drops of perspiration fell from their foreheads. Now and then their faces would light up with the marks of God's approbation, and again the same solemn, earnest, anxious look would settle upon them. ["BLOW THE TRUMPET IN ZION, SANCTIFY A FAST, CALL A SOLEMN ASSEMBLY: GATHER THE PEOPLE, SANCTIFY THE CONGREGATION, ASSEMBLE THE ELDERS. . . . LET THE PRIESTS THE MINISTERS OF THE Lord, WEEP BETWEEN THE PORCH AND THE ALTAR AND LET THEM SAY, SPARE THY PEOPLE, O Lord, AND GIVE NOT THINE HERITAGE TO REPROACH, THAT THE HEATHEN SHOULD RULE OVER THEM: WHEREFORE SHOULD THEY SAY AMONG THE PEOPLE, WHERE IS THEIR God?" JOEL 2:15-17.

"SUBMIT YOURSELVES THEREFORE TO God. RESIST THE DEVIL, AND HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU. DRAW NIGH TO God, AND HE WILL DRAW NIGH TO YOU. CLEANSE YOUR HANDS, YE SINNERS; AND PURIFY YOUR HEARTS, YE DOUBLE-MINDED. BE AFFLICTED, AND MOURN, AND WEEP: LET YOUR LAUGHTER BE TURNED TO MOURNING, AND YOUR JOY TO HEAVINESS. HUMBLE YOURSELVES IN THE SIGHT OF THE Lord, AND HE SHALL LIFT YOU UP." JAMES 4:7-10.

"GATHER YOURSELVES TOGETHER, YEA, GATHER TOGETHER, O NATION NOT DESIRED; BEFORE THE DECREE BRING FORTH, BEFORE THE DAY PASS AS THE CHAFF, BEFORE THE FIERCE ANGER OF THE Lord COME UPON YOU, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE Lord'S ANGER COME UPON YOU. SEEK YE THE Lord, ALL YE MEEK OF THE EARTH, WHICH HAVE WROUGHT HIS JUDGMENT; SEEK RIGHTEOUSNESS, SEEK MEEKNESS: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE Lord'S ANGER." ZEPHANIAH 2:1-3.] {1T 179.3}

Evil angels crowded around them, pressing their darkness upon them, to shut out Jesus from their view, that their eyes might be drawn to the darkness that surrounded them, and they distrust God and next murmur against Him. Their only safety was in keeping their eyes directed upward. Angels of God had charge over His people, and as the poisonous atmosphere from the evil angels was pressed around these anxious ones, the heavenly angels were continually wafting their wings over them, to scatter the thick darkness. {1T 180.1}

Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut

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them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these, and I saw them hastening to the assistance of those who were struggling with all their energies to resist the evil angels, and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But the angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. As the praying ones continued their earnest cries, a ray of light from Jesus would at times come to them, to encourage their hearts, and light up their countenances. {1T 180.2}

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people. {1T 181.1}

The testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {1T 181.2}

Said the angel: "List ye!" Soon I heard a voice that sounded like many musical instruments, all in perfect strains, sweet and harmonious. It surpassed any music I had ever heard. It seemed to be so full of mercy, compassion, and elevating, holy joy. It thrilled through my whole being. Said the angel: "Look ye!" My attention was then turned to the company I had seen, who were mightily shaken. I was shown those whom I had before seen weeping and praying with agony of spirit. The company of guardian angels around them had been doubled, and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, firmly, like a company of soldiers. Their countenances

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expressed the severe conflict which they had endured, the agonizing struggle they had passed through. Yet their features, marked with severe internal anguish, now shone with the light and glory of heaven. They had obtained the victory, and it called forth from them the deepest gratitude, and holy, sacred joy. {1T 181.3}

The numbers of this company had lessened. Some had been shaken out, and left by the way. ["I KNOW THY WORKS, THAT THOU ART NEITHER COLD NOR HOT: I WOULD THOU WERT COLD OR HOT. SO THEN BECAUSE THOU ART LUKEWARM, AND NEITHER COLD NOR HOT, I WILL SPEW THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH. BECAUSE THOU SAYEST, I AM RICH, AND INCREASED WITH GOODS, AND HAVE NEED OF NOTHING; AND KNOWEST NOT THAT THOU ART WRETCHED, AND MISERABLE, AND POOR, AND BLIND, AND NAKED." REVELATION 3:15-17.]

The careless and indifferent, who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, but their numbers were immediately made up by others taking hold of the truth and coming into the ranks. Still the evil angels pressed around them, but they could have no power over them. ["FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES. [OR, "WICKED SPIRITS IN HEAVENLY PLACES," AS IN THE MARGIN.] WHEREFORE TAKE UNTO YOU THE WHOLE ARMOR OF God, THAT YE MAY BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND IN THE EVIL DAY, AND HAVING DONE ALL, TO STAND. STAND THEREFORE, HAVING YOUR LOINS GIRT ABOUT WITH TRUTH, AND HAVING ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND YOUR FEET SHOD WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

ABOVE ALL, TAKING THE SHIELD OF FAITH, WHEREWITH YE SHALL BE ABLE TO QUENCH ALL THE FIERY DARTS OF THE WICKED. AND TAKE THE HELMET OF SALVATION, AND THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE WORD OF God: PRAYING ALWAYS WITH ALL PRAYER AND SUPPLICATION IN THE SPIRIT, AND WATCHING THEREUNTO WITH ALL PERSEVERANCE AND SUPPLICATION FOR ALL SAINTS." EPHESIANS 6:12-18.] {1T 182.1}

I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth in great power. It had effect. I saw those who had been bound; some wives had been bound by their husbands, and some children had been bound by their parents. The honest

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who had been held or prevented from hearing the truth, now eagerly laid hold of it. All fear of their relatives was gone. The truth alone was exalted to them. It was dearer and more precious than life. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered: "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel." {1T 182.2}

Great power was with these chosen ones. Said the angel: "Look ye!" My attention was turned to the wicked, or unbelievers. They were all astir. The zeal and power with the people of God had aroused and enraged them. Confusion, confusion was on every side. I saw measures taken against this company, who had the power and light of God. Darkness thickened around them, yet there they stood, approved of God, and trusting in Him. I saw them perplexed. Next I heard them crying unto God earnestly. Through the day and night their cry ceased not. ["AND SHALL NOT God AVENGE HIS OWN ELECT, WHICH CRY DAY AND NIGHT UNTO HIM, THOUGH HE BEAR LONG WITH THEM? I TELL YOU THAT HE WILL AVENGE THEM SPEEDILY. NEVERTHELESS WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMETH, SHALL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH?" LUKE 18:7, 8. SEE ALSO REVELATION 14:14, 15.] I heard these words: "Thy will, O God, be done! If it can glorify Thy name, make a way of escape for Thy people! Deliver us from the heathen round about us!

They have appointed us unto death; but Thine arm can bring salvation." These are all the words that I can bring to mind. All seemed to have a deep sense of their unworthiness, and manifested entire submission to the will of God. Yet like Jacob, every one, without an exception, was earnestly pleading and wrestling for deliverance. {1T 183.1}

Soon after they had commenced their earnest cry, the angels, in sympathy, would have gone to their deliverance. But a tall, commanding angel suffered them not. Said he: "The will of God is not yet fulfilled. They must drink of the cup. They must be baptized with the baptism."

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{1T 183.2}

Soon I heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and the earth. ["THE LORD ALSO SHALL ROAR OUT OF ZION, AND UTTER HIS VOICE FROM JERUSALEM; AND THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH SHALL SHAKE: BUT THE LORD WILL BE THE HOPE OF HIS PEOPLE, AND THE STRENGTH OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL." JOEL 3:16. SEE ALSO HebrewS 12:26; REVELATION 16:17.] There was a mighty earthquake. Buildings were shaken down, and fell on every side. I then heard a triumphant shout of victory, loud, musical, and clear. I looked upon this company, who, a short time before, were in such distress and bondage.

Their captivity was turned. A glorious light shone upon them. How beautiful they then looked! All weariness and marks of care were gone; health and beauty were seen in every countenance. Their enemies, the heathen around them, fell like dead men. They could not endure the light that shone upon the delivered, holy ones. This light and glory remained upon them until Jesus was seen in the clouds of heaven, and the faithful, tried company were changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from glory to glory. The graves were opened and the saints came forth, clothed with immortality, crying: "Victory over death and the grave!" and together with the living saints they were caught up to meet their Lord in the air, while rich, musical shouts of glory and victory proceeded from every immortal tongue. {1T 184.1}

[Kevin H]

I know many dear Adventists who take this message seriously and love the Lord's appearing.

I have also noticed that the people who are most susceptible to denominational bitterness and dissatisfaction are multi-generational members. Almost never, was a first generation member caught up in the turmoil of the 1980's surrounding the work of Walter Rea, Desmond Ford and the Brinsmead brothers. Evidently, having a generational heritage subjects one to certain hazards of the faith.

I note this not with any desire to condemn, but to observe.

rejoice always,

oG

May I also point out that those who were more susceptible were those who came from a more Fundamentalist perspective and from a more judgmental perspective several going from being judgmental Adventists to becoming judgmental Evangelicals, using the same Fundamentalist perspectives towards Paul, began to quote Paul (and Hebrews) massively to judge the rest of us. Others were those who were being pressured under the judgmental attitudes of people in the church who used these events to push the judgmental pressure off of them.

Also, may I point out that among the non-fundamentalists communities in the church, Ford and Rea came into town with their horse and pony show and left and there was no devistation, the members still believed in Mrs. White and the Investigative Judgment and went along in our every day lifes. It was the more Fundamentalists communities that was devistated by the Ford and Rea visits. I'm sad that so many in the church seems to want to lay the foundation that was devistated by Ford and Rea instead of the foundation that was not moved by them.

[pnattmbtc]

Never have I encountered such judgmentalism in Adventism as I have here in this Forum lately.

This is typical of forums in general. If you look at CARM, for example (I think that's the largest Christian forum), you'll see that what goes on here is very mild.

I'm not defending anything here. I'm just pointing out that it's typical of forums.

[Gail]

Interesting perspectives!

[karl]

However I do not believe that all, or even most, Adventists are judgmental. I think it is a small minority of members in the church that make enough noise that they appear to be more numerous than they really are. I believe most Adventists are loving, compassionate Christians that honestly care about other people.

Define judgmental, Shane.

There are some who believe that anyone who holds a firm belief which is contrary to their own is judgmental.

I consider judgmental statements to be things like:

"You're an idiot" or "what you said is irrelevant" or "you're thinking such and such" - comments that actually make a negative judgement about the other person.

This is different from presenting the evidence you have considered in developing your opinion or presenting contrasting evidence to the evidence the other person has supplied.

Unfortunately, obstinacy often breeds obstinacy in a reflexive fashion.

I know I need to be more understanding and alert to this in my own posts.

[teresaq]

While there ARE obnoxious SDAs, communication is not just about the message sender; it also has to do with the receiver. Even when a SDA shares the truth in love, it may come across or interpreted as being judgmental because there are truths we hold & share that cuts across many errors that non-SDAs hold dear.

As loving as Christ was, the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees & the priests considered Him obnoxious.

ummmm, did they find Christs behavior obnoxious, or His message?

yes, they did hate it when Christ reached out to those they turned away. but what was Christs behavior in delivering His messages?

in all good conscience can we compare our behavior favorably to His? better yet, do we even really know what His behavior was like?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Never have I encountered such judgmentalism in Adventism as I have here in this Forum lately.

This is typical of forums in general. If you look at CARM, for example (I think that's the largest Christian forum), you'll see that what goes on here is very mild.

I'm not defending anything here. I'm just pointing out that it's typical of forums.

I've seen CARM. I'm not impressed with their behavior either.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I have also noticed that the people who are most susceptible to denominational bitterness and dissatisfaction are multi-generational members. Almost never, was a first generation member caught up in the turmoil of the 1980's surrounding the work of Walter Rea, Desmond Ford and the Brinsmead brothers. Evidently, having a generational heritage subjects one to certain hazards of the faith.

I wouldn't consider myself to be a multi-generational member. My mom converted when I was 2 yrs old, and my dad was Baptist/Methodist. I think you're painting a section of people with a large brush without knowing them.

[Woody]

Good one Rudywoofs. Did you know that there is almost a religion inside our religion ... of those that think the first generation SDAs are superior to the rest of us bums.

How sad ....

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: olger

I know many dear Adventists who take this message seriously and love the Lord's appearing.

I have also noticed that the people who are most susceptible to denominational bitterness and dissatisfaction are multi-generational members. Almost never, was a first generation member caught up in the turmoil of the 1980's surrounding the work of Walter Rea, Desmond Ford and the Brinsmead brothers. Evidently, having a generational heritage subjects one to certain hazards of the faith.

I note this not with any desire to condemn, but to observe.

rejoice always,

oG

May I also point out that those who were more susceptible were those who came from a more Fundamentalist perspective and from a more judgmental perspective several going from being judgmental Adventists to becoming judgmental Evangelicals, using the same Fundamentalist perspectives towards Paul, began to quote Paul (and Hebrews) massively to judge the rest of us. Others were those who were being pressured under the judgmental attitudes of people in the church who used these events to push the judgmental pressure off of them.

Also, may I point out that among the non-fundamentalists communities in the church, Ford and Rea came into town with their horse and pony show and left and there was no devistation, the members still believed in Mrs. White and the Investigative Judgment and went along in our every day lifes. It was the more Fundamentalists communities that was devistated by the Ford and Rea visits. I'm sad that so many in the church seems to want to lay the foundation that was devistated by Ford and Rea instead of the foundation that was not moved by them.

Blanket all-inclusive statements always bother me because none of them are true.Some will take a few known isolated examples and then try to apply that to millions of people of whom they do not know anything. Multi-generational Adventists are no different than anyone else. Influences for good or for evil shape the lives of everyone.

Godly Adventists parents will bring up their children in the admonition of the Lord,If they are only false professors, then there will be problems, and their children will see the hypocrisy. Conversely, even those children will be exposed to the truths of the church and seeds may be planted to bear fruit years later. There are simply far to many variables to make statements of this order.

As for Ford and Rea, what you say makes no sense to me. Ford is in severe apostasy as we know. I may consider myself a "fundamentalist." That means I believe ALL the fundamentals. Ford cannot devastate me, not anyone else grounded in truth. It will be the ones teaching error and doctrines of devils that will obtain the final "devastation." Truth stands like an unmovable rock. Just ask the 50 to 100 million true saints the papacy executed.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph 2:20 And are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[Guest]

Blanket all-inclusive statements always bother me because none of them are true.Some will take a few known isolated examples and then try to apply that to millions of people of whom they do not know anything. Multi-generational Adventists are no different than anyone else. Influences for good or for evil shape the lives of everyone.

Godly Adventists parents will bring up their children in the admonition of the Lord,If they are only false professors, then there will be problems, and their children will see the hypocrisy. Conversely, even those children will be exposed to the truths of the church and seeds may be planted to bear fruit years later. There are simply far to many variables to make statements of this order.

As for Ford and Rea, what you say makes no sense to me. Ford is in severe apostasy as we know. I may consider myself a "fundamentalist." That means I believe ALL the fundamentals. Ford cannot devastate me, not anyone else grounded in truth. It will be the ones teaching error and doctrines of devils that will obtain the final "devastation." Truth stands like an unmovable rock. Just ask the 50 to 100 million true saints the papacy executed.

Amen Steve, I agree 100% with what you have said here.

[pnattmbtc]

Fundamentalism is usually understood as believing in the inerrancy of Scripture.

[Steve Billiter]

Fundamentalism is usually understood as believing in the inerrancy of Scripture.

Thank you Richard.

That sounds good to me. I will just expand on that and say my beliefs are inline with all of the pillars of Adventism that God used to establish the 7th Day Adventist prophetic movement.

FUNDAMENTALIST: a CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN who affirms "the fundamentals" of the CHRISTIAN FAITH. (Adventist)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/books/concise/WORDS-F.html

The below statement is interesting as well, as it strikes me that the fundamentalist church these people(protestants) were looking for was their friendly, neighborhood 7th Day Adventist church!

FUNDAMENTALISM: a CONSERVATIVE THEOLOGICAL movement which arose in American PROTESTANTISM in the 1920s in opposition to "MODERNISM." Fundamentalism should be understood primarily as an attempt to protect the essential doctrines or "fundamentals" of the CHRISTIAN FAITH from the eroding effects of modern thought.

The doctrines considered essential by Fundamentalists include: the VIRGIN BIRTH of JESUS, His RESURRECTION and DEITY, His substitutionary ATONEMENT and SECOND COMING. Finally, they lay great stress on the authority of the BIBLE which is usually expressed in terms of its INFALLIBILITY and INERRANCY. The roots of fundamentalism go back to the nineteenth century when EVOLUTION, BIBLICAL CRITICISM, and COMPARATIVE RELIGION began to challenge the authority of the Biblical REVELATION. A significant offensive against MODERNISM was launched in 1910 with the publication of The Fundamentals a series of tracts written by conservative scholars to counter certain theological tendencies they considered dangerous.

In a relatively short time the fundamentalist image became stereotyped as close-minded, belligerent, separatist, and uncultured. Even though the original Fundamentalists were well educated scholars--some from leading universities, such as Graham Gresham Machen at Princeton-- the movement as a whole quickly became identified with a rejection of education and a reactionary rural nostalgia for earlier times. Recently the term "fundamentalism" has been applied to MUSLIMS and members of other FAITHS who wish to retain their TRADITIONAL BELIEFS. Although there may be some merit is such usage, it is very misleading because many people identified thus are simply anti-Western.

For example the Iranian REVOLUTION is usually described as "fundamentalist Islam" while the Saudis are seen as pro-Western and therefore more LIBERAL. In reality the Iranians interpret the QUR'N in a far more liberal and open manner than the Saudis who are much closer to CHRISTIAN fundamentalists in their religious beliefs and practices than the Iranians. The use of "fundamentalism" in this context is, therefore, not very helpful.

[Dr. Shane]

My mother was a mentally ill, drug addict and alcoholic. She had multiple marriages and multiple divorces. All through my childhood she drug me and my siblings all across the nation and to the Adventist churches in every town. I can never remember any church being judgmental of my family. I remember church schools allowing us kids to attend for free. I remember the church bringing us food baskets when our cupboards were bare. The only new pair of shoes I received as child were bought for me by the church dorcus. When my mother decided to marry an active alcoholic the church threw her a wedding shower! When my mother went to drug rehab for two months, various families within the local church took care of us kids.

When I moved off to college, I showed up in Mankato, Minnesota without a place to sleep. I called the local Adventist pastor and he found a church family to take me in until I could get settled. When I got stuck in Mexico City, a local pastor let me sleep at his house. When my student aid didn't come through while studying in Mexico, a Mexican nurse that made maybe $150/month gave me $20 so I could eat. Once in college when I was broke a church member at prayer meeting slipped me a $100 bill and told me not to worry about paying it back. When I got married local church members furnished the used trailer house I bought (it was used but nice furniture). The local church threw baby showers for my wife when she was pregnant with both of our kids as we had no biological family in the area.

I have no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of Adventists are loving, kind and generous. In my experience the church has went above and beyond of what one would expect. And I don't come from an ideal background.

[Steve Billiter]

Shane, I appreciate your story, I too find almost all Adventists kind as well as other Christians too. We can read Isaiah 58, and Matt. 25 how we should feed the poor and help the downtrodden.

You don't say if your mother was a church member, but I know that for me, I would not attend the wedding of a church member that married a known alcoholic, if that is the case here, because it would cause my blessing to be upon alcoholism.

I'm not sure what the point is here, but is seems a good example of Adventists exhibiting the spirit of Christian love and accetance.

[Dr. Shane]

My mother was an Adventist much of her life although she never married any of her five husbands in the Adventist church. She rarely took part in communion either because she felt she was not worthy.

Quote:

I know that for me, I would not attend the wedding of a church member that married a known alcoholic

This is the kind of judgmentalism that I think is limited to a minority of Adventists. In fact, most that do feel this way would never express it in person but on the internet they feel a little more at liberty to express their condemnation of others.

Jesus once attended a dinner with tax collectors and the Pharisees asked, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" Jesus replied, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

[teresaq]

And I don't come from an ideal background.

you dont have to.

but i know as many stories about when the church didnt help, such as the time a man died a couple of years ago of a heartattack in his car while the church "voted" whether to let him sleep in some part of the church grounds.

[Dr. Shane]

Are you suggesting that not sleeping on church grounds caused a heart attack? Was there a hospital on church grounds?

I know of a time that the church decided not to allow a couple of men sleep in the church. Helping people doesn't always mean giving them what they want. It often means doing what is best for them which can be tough love. Our local Salvation Army doesn't let homeless people sleep in their shelter if they have alcohol on their breath.

Certainly the church has made errors. Parents make errors when raising children. But these errors are not made due to hardheartedness. People are not perfect and the church is made up of people. Sometimes the judgment of a church can be wrong but that doesn't mean the intentions were not good. I have seen church boards make bad decisions but those on the church board making those bad decisions were not bad people. They were acting in the way they thought was best.