Judgemental Adventists

[Woody]

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Jesus calls upon you

To spread the gospel news

So walk it and talk it, a sermon in shoes

Repeat the first four lines…

So live it and give it, a sermon in shoes

Repeat…

So know it and show it, a sermon in shoes

Repeat…

So teach it and preach it, a sermon in shoes

Do you know Oh Christian ... you're a Sermon in Shoes.

Jesus calls upon you to spread the Gospel News

So, walk it and talk it and live it and give it and know it and show it and preach it and teach it .... A Sermon in Shoes.

[Woody]

"The prevailing monotony of the religious round of service in our churches needs to be disturbed. The leaven of activity needs to be introduced that our church members may work along new lines, and devise new methods. The Holy Spirit's power will move upon hearts when this dead, lifeless monotony is broken up, and many will begin to work in earnest who never before thought of being anything but idle spectators." TM 204 February 2, 1895.

"In the providence of God, those who are bearing the burden of His work have been endeavoring to put new life into old methods of labor, and also to invent new plans and new methods of awakening the interest of church members in a united effort to reach the world." CS 190

" have been shown that in our educational work we are not to follow the methods that have been adopted in our older established schools. There is among us too much clinging to old customs, and because of this we are far behind where we should be in the development of the third angel's message." CT 533

"New methods must be introduced. God's people must awake to the necessities of the time in which they are living. God has men whom He will call into His service,--men who will not carry forward the work in the lifeless way in which it has been carried forward in the past. " EV 70

-Men are needed who pray to God for wisdom, and who, under the guidance of God, can put new life into the old methods of labor and can invent new plans and new methods of awakening the interest of church members and reaching the men and women of the world.--Manuscript 117, 1907.

"The providence of God was ever to open up new methods, and progress was to be made from generation to generation, in order to preserve in the world a knowledge of the true God, of His laws and commandments." FE 286

"God selects His messengers, and gives them His message; and He says, "Forbid them not." New methods must be introduced." RC 228

"In this new year let new methods be recommended." LLM 334

[Overaged]

"The prevailing monotony of the religious round of service in our churches needs to be disturbed. The leaven of activity needs to be introduced that our church members may work along new lines, and devise new methods.

Agreed, this is a healthy process for Churches to go through on an ongoing basis.

Problem here is that "progressive" does not usually refer to "new methods," and is often quite something different.

[Overaged]

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Jesus calls upon you

To spread the gospel news

So walk it and talk it, a sermon in shoes

I love this! Where did you get it?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Do you know, O Christian, you’re a sermon in shoes

Jesus calls upon you

To spread the gospel news

So walk it and talk it, a sermon in shoes

I love this! Where did you get it?

It's an old song from when I was young. (back in the olden days). It has a cool tune. Wish I could sing it to you ...

[Overaged]

[Woody]

[Kevin H]

I have known many loving historic Adventists and many loving liberal Adventists too. I have also known some judgmental people of both varieties. In my experience, the loving ones always outnumbered the judgmental ones but the judgmental ones have always made more noise.

Amen: The Historic Adventists are one thread in historic Adventism, with modifications based in their complete rejection over Questions on Doctrine, and they tend to go to supporting the traditions from the 1800s of this thread of historic Adventisism (only modified by QOD). I respect their Methodist perspective of Adventism, and there are aspects of the truth that they emphessise, but I may not always agreee with their applications of this truth, and that they have tendency to use their aspects of the truth in a way that fights and excludes other aspects of the truth, and some of them like to pretend and present themselves as the only thread of historic Adventism, while many of the voices we hear today are equally truely historically Adventist.

While liberals, say Desmond Ford, are the same situation as above but the other side of the coin, emphesising the truths that the "Historic Adventists" fight but again they tend to present these in a way that it ends up fighting the truths that the Historic Adventists are preserving, it is more of a Lutheran perspective of Adventism, and instead of going to where Bible study was in the 1800's they tend to stop where Bible study was in the 1500s.

Now these new discoveries on Paul were not known when Desmond Ford was studying. I can see where he is coming from, and would feel a lot better about him if he were to respond to questions like the year-day principle and the Investigative Judgment by saying "From my perspective I don't see how these fit, but they are outside of my specific study and I'll leave others to study it out" and just present what he understands and realize that all he can give is information that we can use with our expirence and study.

It is sad that we have so gotten away from the Bible. In 1946 the university of Chicago Press published Henri Franfort's "Before Philosophy" which teaches about the year day principle. The year day principle is esential for studying ancient anthropology, Egyptology, Assyrianalogy, Canaanite history etc. About 30 years later Des Ford says there is not evidence for the year day principle and people sit there like bumbs on a log. He should have been confronted with "Before Philosophy" or other writings about the studies of the ancient near east. These come from aspects outside of his field of study, and he should have spoke what he studied instead of forcing his studies on what he did not study.

Both sides have strong and weak points; and when it comes to being judgmental we find them in both sides. Just look at Ratzlaf; He went from a critical spirit quoting Mrs. White as a hammer to force people to accept traditions based on where Bible study was in the 1800s and he converted into a critical spirit quoting Paul as a hammer to force people to accept traditons based on where Bible study was in the 1500s and he thinks he has made an amazing change.

[Woody]

Quote:

Just look at Ratzlaf; He went from a critical spirit quoting Mrs. White as a hammer to force people to accept traditions based on where Bible study was in the 1800s

I've know Dale most all of my life ... and I never knew him to use Mrs. White as a hammer. And I've never known him to have a critical spirit. That's a new one on me. Perhaps you should stick with the issues rather than the man.

[Overaged]

Both sides have strong and weak points; and when it comes to being judgmental we find them in both sides. Just look at Ratzlaf; He went from a critical spirit quoting Mrs. White as a hammer to force people to accept traditions based on where Bible study was in the 1800s and he converted into a critical spirit quoting Paul as a hammer to force people to accept traditons based on where Bible study was in the 1500s and he thinks he has made an amazing change.

Yes; I would certainly agree with you on this one, with no reservations. I have studied with him a bit, and have many of his books; and I have never encountered a more critical man who, for someone that "disagrees" with Ellen White so much, sure quotes her a lot. he does use her quotes like a hammer - a sledge hammer.

[Guest]

I've know Dale most all of my life ... and I never knew him to use Mrs. White as a hammer. And I've never known him to have a critical spirit. That's a new one on me. Perhaps you should stick with the issues rather than the man.

[Woody]

No. The question is ... who would like to judge another's heart. I think I know the answer to that one. I see no problem with a person being judgmental to issues. But not towards another person. There in lies the difference.

[Sylvia49]

My husband was baptized as a Christian/Adventist many years ago, without having any religious upbringing. Shortly after he was baptized, an elder of the church told him, "You won't stay; you'll leave the church."

My husband did'nt have any idea why this elder said this, but it was not the way to encourage a new believer.

My husband changed churches shortly thereafter, and was welcomed into a nuturing environment. He has been here ever since.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

"You won't stay; you'll leave the church."

I can't believe it. Someone said the exact same thing to me the day before I was baptized.

[Steve Billiter]

My husband was baptized as a Christian/Adventist many years ago, without having any religious upbringing. Shortly after he was baptized, an elder of the church told him, "You won't stay; you'll leave the church."

My husband did'nt have any idea why this elder said this, but it was not the way to encourage a new believer.

My husband changed churches shortly thereafter, and was welcomed into a nuturing environment. He has been here ever since.

Hi Sylvia, I remember hearing this before, how very tragic that another member, elder even would say such a thing. You could be surprised at the nature of some "people" that show up at our meetings; not to say this is what happened, but something to think about.

I will not go into all the painful history; it is too much. But last January the Lord showed me that erroneous theories and methods would be brought into our camp meetings, and that the history of the past would be repeated. I felt greatly distressed. I was instructed to say that at these demonstrations demons in the form of men are present, working with all the ingenuity that Satan can employ to make the truth disgusting to sensible people; that the enemy was trying to arrange matters so that the camp meetings, which have been the means of bringing the truth of the third angel's message before multitudes, should lose their force and influence.  {2SM 37.3}

“I have been shown that evil angels in the form of believers will work in our ranks to bring in a strong spirit

of unbelief. These powers of evil will assemble in our meetings, not to receive a blessing, but to counterwork

the influences of the Spirit of God. In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know

the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God.” {Selected

Messages, Book 3, pp. 410-411}

“There will be seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in the midst of the church, and these evil influences

will increase; but hold fast the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Satan and his angels will

appear on this earth as men, and will mingle with those of whom God's Word says, ‘Some shall depart from

the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.’ (1 Timothy 4:1).” {Manuscript Releases,

Vol. 8, No. 345}

[SivartM]

Maybe it's some sort of reverse psychology thing.

Some really dumb reverse psychology thing.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Sylvia49

"You won't stay; you'll leave the church."

I can't believe it. Someone said the exact same thing to me the day before I was baptized.

Wow, that is pretty dysfunctional, to be sure. One wonders why people who say such things to new members, or to anyone, would want to stay in church themselves?

[pnattmbtc]

My husband was baptized as a Christian/Adventist many years ago, without having any religious upbringing. Shortly after he was baptized, an elder of the church told him, "You won't stay; you'll leave the church."

My husband did'nt have any idea why this elder said this, but it was not the way to encourage a new believer.

My husband changed churches shortly thereafter, and was welcomed into a nuturing environment. He has been here ever since.

Nice emoticons.

[Kevin H]

I'm taking it from stories that I had read in journals and on tapes about how he and his friend Martin (I forgot his first name) discribed themselves before their "conversion"

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I've know Dale most all of my life ... and I never knew him to use Mrs. White as a hammer. And I've never known him to have a critical spirit. That's a new one on me. Perhaps you should stick with the issues rather than the man.

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Both sides have strong and weak points; and when it comes to being judgmental we find them in both sides. Just look at Ratzlaf; He went from a critical spirit quoting Mrs. White as a hammer to force people to accept traditions based on where Bible study was in the 1800s and he converted into a critical spirit quoting Paul as a hammer to force people to accept traditons based on where Bible study was in the 1500s and he thinks he has made an amazing change.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Yes; I would certainly agree with you on this one, with no reservations. I have studied with him a bit, and have many of his books; and I have never encountered a more critical man who, for someone that "disagrees" with Ellen White so much, sure quotes her a lot. he does use her quotes like a hammer - a sledge hammer.

There seems to be a huge divide between Redwood's perception of Dale, and Kevin & overaged perception.....

Who should I believe? ...Hmmmmmm, who is usually 100% wrong about these types of things?

Who is usually 180 degrees off course when it comes to theology?

Ohhh, this is so hard....

Maybe we both have a point, as I have never met the men, only listened to some of their tapes and read some of their writings, and contrast what they say with what I've learned in college about Mrs. White and the Bible, and in contrast to what Methodist Archaeologist Jim Fleming said and the growing new studies of Paul, and contrasting how they quote Mrs. White and what the actual words they claim to be quoting actually says. The fact that while they quote Mrs. White a lot; they have an amazing tendency to misquote her, changing her words to make her say things that she did not actually say; sometimes she was speculating and her actual quote was her starting out with phrases like "How do we know that..." and they turn this wondering if something was possible into that thing actually being fact in her mind, or talking about like England considering whether or not to get involved in the Civil War (which they did consider) but they turn her into predicting that England would enter the Civil War. etc. And getting back to "How much of Scripture is inpsired" they constantly attack the aspects that Mrs. White sees as side issues where she says there may be problems, and they avoid her key issues; the 3 deceptions of Satan and everything involved with them.

The fact that I keep finding them looking at the side issues that Mrs. White warns us against focusing on while avoiding (and could very well be ingnorant of) her core issues; the fact that they so frequently misquote her and read more into her words or frequently change her words so that their quotes have her say more than she's saying; and that they turn to Fundamentalism and tradition instead of serious exogeses and the new studies of Paul, all cause me to not take what they say too seriously.

But once again, there is a thing about knowing them in person that is a lot different from reading their words and hearing their tapes. And I may be guilty of too much blending Ratzlaf and Martin due to their similarities and that I've actually heard more of Martin's materials. Yet while I've read and heard how both men have discribed themselves from back when they were Adventists, to how they are now, I don't see that much of a difference. And again Redwood, my source is what I had read from his discription of himself. Maybe he mis-discribed himself.

[Woody]

Well ... I had him as my Academy Bible teacher. And I can assure you that he never used Ellen White as a hammer. His impression of what others did with her might have been that way. But, he never did.

[Overaged]

Well ... I had him as my Academy Bible teacher. And I can assure you that he never used Ellen White as a hammer. His impression of what others did with her might have been that way. But, he never did.

Well; there could be some truth to this; but the character of his ministry has changed from way back then. Even in the 7 or so years I have followed his ministry; I have seen a lot of change. I guess to be brief, I would say he is much more "intense" with what he does. But please don't see us as "judging" Mr Ratzlaff as a person; from what I see on this thread, I think people are making statements and observations about his "ministry" and his writings. No one is questioning your experience with Dale; but I feel that he has some problems he has never dealt with.

A couple of years ago; I submitted a study to him that I did on salvation. He actually approved of it; except of course to condemn a short quote by Ellen White that I did at the end. It was actually an adaptation of an old study Emilio Knechtle did when he was alive. (I hope I spelled his name right). But I do believe very strongly Dale is definitely very judgmental of Adventists and of Ellen White. It is the same spirit that many Adventist malcontents also have. Makes no difference if the person is Adventist or non - but it's easy to see the judgmental spirit in either.

[Overaged]

But once again, there is a thing about knowing them in person that is a lot different from reading their words and hearing their tapes. And I may be guilty of too much blending Ratzlaf and Martin due to their similarities and that I've actually heard more of Martin's materials. Yet while I've read and heard how both men have discribed themselves from back when they were Adventists, to how they are now, I don't see that much of a difference. And again Redwood, my source is what I had read from his discription of himself. Maybe he mis-discribed himself.

Dale freely admits in some of his writing how that Walter Martin was his schoolmaster for his current "ministry" of "reaching out to Adventists."

[teresaq]

It is the same spirit that many Adventist malcontents also have. Makes no difference if the person is Adventist or non - but it's easy to see the judgmental spirit in either.

that even covers those who believe they know and understand our message.

it is so hard for us to see and understand what judgmentalism and condemnation is in ourselves!! it seems we come across bible or egw statements and feel quite comfortable throwing them around not realizing we may have a long way to go in the being converted business.

or perhaps that is the problem. not realizing the difference between being converted to some understanding of the truth, and being converted to the character of God.

Jesus was killed because He wouldnt make the jews "rich and famous" on the one hand. and wouldnt judge and condemn on the other. He was more about reaching out to the ones the church had hurt and had no use for self-glorification.

[Tom Wetmore]

...except of course to condemn a short quote by Ellen White that I did at the end... But I do believe very strongly Dale is definitely very judgmental of Adventists and of Ellen White...

Not accepting or questioning the use of EGW, or even rejecting her prophetic ministry, is not being judgmental, in the sense that I understand the intent of the OP.