Judgemental Adventists

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Shane

And I don't come from an ideal background.

you dont have to.

but i know as many stories about when the church didnt help, such as the time a man died a couple of years ago of a heartattack in his car while the church "voted" whether to let him sleep in some part of the church grounds.

The church had nothing to do with that mans heart attack, he would have died irregardless.Perhaps the untold story is the man lived a lifestyle that was not good, developing heart disease.

The pastor or elder is not the ruler of the church, no matter that some think they are. Unless clear rules are in place that may give authority to the pastor to authorize a homeless person to sleep on church property, then its right to vote or a counsel together should take place.

I remember a time at the OGR meetings in '07 when a family with kids came in our church that was out of gas, homeless, and out of food. We took up a collection of well over a 100.00 for them to have a motel room, food and gas for their destination. Cash was not given out as some do not tell the truth and use the money for nefarious purposes.

Nearly every church that I've been a member of or attended helped the needy in some manner.

[Kevin H]

Good one Rudywoofs. Did you know that there is almost a religion inside our religion ... of those that think the first generation SDAs are superior to the rest of us bums.

How sad ....

Sadly this is true; even among our hiring of pastors there seems to be a more interst in fairly new converts instead of their children who have gone into deeper study in our history and the scriptures.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

While there ARE obnoxious SDAs, communication is not just about the message sender; it also has to do with the receiver. Even when a SDA shares the truth in love, it may come across or interpreted as being judgmental because there are truths we hold & share that cuts across many errors that non-SDAs hold dear.

As loving as Christ was, the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees & the priests considered Him obnoxious.

ummmm, did they find Christs behavior obnoxious, or His message?

Please re-read my post and see if there is any doubt in your mind what I meant.

[LynnDel]

One EGW quote I always remember is when she said somethiing to the effect that we shoud "err on the side of the people" - which I take to mean that we should show love to those making choices we think are not right. Therefore, I WOULD go to the ill-advised wedding, I WOULD have a baby shower for the unwed mother, I WOULD let Sunday-keeping churches have their services in our sanctuary on the day we don't need it, etc. I believe that is what Jesus would have done. It is His spirit of love in action.

LynnDel

[Gail]

My experience has been like Shane's, for the most part. My church families were MOST supportive to us during our difficult years, even though I was married to an unbeliever.

I am aware, though, of the experience of others who were not so fortunate. I don't know what made the difference. But I do feel that the kindness of the church brethren was vital to how my children ended up.

[Overaged]

The church had nothing to do with that mans heart attack, he would have died irregardless.Perhaps the untold story is the man lived a lifestyle that was not good, developing heart disease.

Nearly every church that I've been a member of or attended helped the needy in some manner.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

you dont have to.

but i know as many stories about when the church didnt help' date=' such as the time a man died a couple of years ago of a heartattack in his car while the church "voted" whether to let him sleep in some part of the church grounds. [/quote']

The church had nothing to do with that mans heart attack, he would have died irregardless.

didnt say it did.

it had been a particularly hot spell and that was one of the hottest days. why wasnt he inside in one of the air conditioned rooms, while these good folk were voting? why did they have to wait til they could "vote" and this man sleeping in his truck all those days, outside in the daytime in that heat?

why hadnt someone taken him into their home? if i had known about it i would have. ive taken many in, some complete strangers.

so yes, he might have had a heart attack anywhere and at some point, but....

and no, that isnt the only circumstance ive seen.

i also have met some very good christians in our church, and i think they are probably the best christians you could find anywhere given our "light". but they are a minority.

i also know that the truly obnoxious are a minority.

the rest of us seem to be trying to learn.

anyway im not really interested in defending the church. lets glorify God and let the church take care of itself.

[rickcf]

You have to be judgmental to be effected by judgmental people. If you love everyone as the Bible says and as Jesus lived then you will have the strength through Him to turn the other cheek or give your coat to the robber or to forgive those who treat you wrong. If you loose your focus on Christ and look at how the world judges or you see the speck in someone else’s eye then your focus is off of Christ. The log in your life is then justified and a stumbling block to salvation. Everyone is responsible for their own salvation and responsible to share the light of Christ to everyone in their path. Everyone has logs in their eyes but God sees souls for salvation and those eyes should be our eyes when we look at every man. This is if we are looking at people within the church or in the street. Are we going to complain to God because epeople are judgemental? Did not Christ get persecuted and eventually killed by judgemental people? Are we better than Him? God forgive us.

[karl]

You have to be judgmental to be effected by judgmental people. If you love everyone as the Bible says and as Jesus lived then you will have the strength through Him to turn the other cheek or give your coat to the robber or to forgive those who treat you wrong. If you loose your focus on Christ and look at how the world judges or you see the speck in someone else’s eye then your focus is off of Christ. The log in your life is then justified and a stumbling block to salvation. Everyone is responsible for their own salvation and responsible to share the light of Christ to everyone in their path. Everyone has logs in their eyes but God sees souls for salvation and those eyes should be our eyes when we look at every man. This is if we are looking at people within the church or in the street. Are we going to complain to God because epeople are judgemental? Did not Christ get persecuted and eventually killed by judgemental people? Are we better than Him? God forgive us.

Thank you for this, Rick. It was a blessing to read.

[aldona]

Good one Rudywoofs. Did you know that there is almost a religion inside our religion ... of those that think the first generation SDAs are superior to the rest of us bums.

How sad ....

Hang on...I must be living in a different SDA universe. Where I hang out, it is the 3rd and 4th generation SDA's who are the Pillars of the Church and the Mothers and Fathers in Israel, and whose word is Law and must be Obeyed...the 1st generation believers are just newbies who need to keep their mouths shut and pay their tithes.

aldona

[aldona]

Quote:

but I know that for me, I would not attend the wedding of a church member that married a known alcoholic, if that is the case here, because it would cause my blessing to be upon alcoholism.

With all due respect, I understand my presence at fellow church members' weddings as signifying "These people are dear to me and I am rejoicing with them on their special day, and I intend to give them support and encouragement in their life together." Not "I am here to show I wholeheartedly approve of all of the sins and imperfections that they have not managed to overcome yet."

What if the two practicing alcoholics met at an AA meeting and were devoted to help each other quit drinking? (often a long process which takes years.)

Just a thought... in New Testament times, if you were a normal, average member of the synagogue with no inside information on the supernatural origin of Mary's pregnancy (just what other members were saying), would you have gone to Mary and Joseph's wedding?

aldona

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Good one Rudywoofs. Did you know that there is almost a religion inside our religion ... of those that think the first generation SDAs are superior to the rest of us bums.

How sad ....

Hang on...I must be living in a different SDA universe. Where I hang out, it is the 3rd and 4th generation SDA's who are the Pillars of the Church and the Mothers and Fathers in Israel, and whose word is Law and must be Obeyed...the 1st generation believers are just newbies who need to keep their mouths shut and pay their tithes.

aldona

ive seen it both ways.

ive seen some of our best people be multigenerational,

as well as some convert.

ive seen some of our worst people be multigenerational

as well as some converts.

[Gerr]

One EGW quote I always remember is when she said somethiing to the effect that we shoud "err on the side of the people" - which I take to mean that we should show love to those making choices we think are not right. Therefore, I WOULD go to the ill-advised wedding, I WOULD have a baby shower for the unwed mother, I WOULD let Sunday-keeping churches have their services in our sanctuary on the day we don't need it, etc. I believe that is what Jesus would have done. It is His spirit of love in action.

LynnDel

My previous church paid for the school expenses of a girl in a boarding academy. She did not apply herself and got failing grades. Caring

members counseled with her. Failed to graduate. After she left school she got pregnant and delivered the baby out of wedlock. The women in the church threw an elaborate baby shower. A year or two later, she got pregnant and delivered another baby out of wedlovk. The women threw another baby shower. She is now on her third out-of-wedlock baby. I don't think the church threw a baby shower for the third one. This is a fairly conservative SDA church.

Judgmental conservative Adventists? Yeah, no doubt they exist. It only takes a few to give a group a bad name. Then it takes on a life of its own. But without loving conservative Adventists, it might have made finding my way back into the church much more difficult.

[Overaged]

Fundamentalism is usually understood as believing in the inerrancy of Scripture.

I have a number of Catholic friends whom I study with periodically. To them, a "Fundamentalist" is one who believes in "Sola Scriptura". Guess it depends on who you are and where you are coming from.

[Dr. Shane]

To some; helping the needy is just something to do to look good. To be "righteous" or "holy."

I don't think I have every met people that help out the needy just to look good. I have met a lot that take on titles and hold positions of authority so they look good but if I ever met anyone that helped out the needy so they looked good I didn't know it. I wish everyone would help out the needy so they looked good. If that is a manifestation of pride, I wish more would manifest their pride like that.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

To some; helping the needy is just something to do to look good. To be "righteous" or "holy."

I don't think I have every met people that help out the needy just to look good. I have met a lot that take on titles and hold positions of authority so they look good but if I ever met anyone that helped out the needy so they looked good I didn't know it. I wish everyone would help out the needy so they looked good. If that is a manifestation of pride, I wish more would manifest their pride like that.

I believe, just like EGW says, there are real Christians in every church, not excepting the Catholics, but the system of Romanism is a religion totally of works. To my knowledge, they also have the largest network of social service agencies.

[Dr. Shane]

My previous church paid for the school expenses of a girl in a boarding academy. She did not apply herself and got failing grades. Caring members counseled with her. Failed to graduate. After she left school she got pregnant and delivered the baby out of wedlock...

I am quite sure that the girl dropping out of school and getting pregnant were not connected to the church paying for her schooling. She probably had a lot of issues from her childhood and the church reached out to her. Someday in crisis she may return to the church that loved her so much.

I know of students that did not get any assistance to attend the academy whose parents paid for them in full and they too dropped out and went on to leave the church.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

To some; helping the needy is just something to do to look good. To be "righteous" or "holy."

I don't think I have every met people that help out the needy just to look good. I have met a lot that take on titles and hold positions of authority so they look good but if I ever met anyone that helped out the needy so they looked good I didn't know it. I wish everyone would help out the needy so they looked good. If that is a manifestation of pride, I wish more would manifest their pride like that.

I know what you are saying; but I have seen some "ministries" fight over who gets to help who, or Pastors squabbling over baptisms

[olger]

Blanket all-inclusive statements always bother me because none of them are true.Some will take a few known isolated examples and then try to apply that to millions of people of whom they do not know anything. Multi-generational Adventists are no different than anyone else. Influences for good or for evil shape the lives of everyone.

Godly Adventists parents will bring up their children in the admonition of the Lord,If they are only false professors, then there will be problems, and their children will see the hypocrisy. Conversely, even those children will be exposed to the truths of the church and seeds may be planted to bear fruit years later. There are simply far to many variables to make statements of this order.

As for Ford and Rea, what you say makes no sense to me. Ford is in severe apostasy as we know. I may consider myself a "fundamentalist." That means I believe ALL the fundamentals. Ford cannot devastate me, not anyone else grounded in truth. It will be the ones teaching error and doctrines of devils that will obtain the final "devastation." Truth stands like an unmovable rock. Just ask the 50 to 100 million true saints the papacy executed.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph 2:20 And are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Hi Steve. Lest I be misunderstood, some of the greatest people that I know are multi-generational church members. I thank God for them.

We find ourselves as a church in a unique position. For some thirty-five years, publications sponsored by a self-pronounced progressive wing of the Adventist church have promoted reinterpretation of virtually every element of the Adventist faith. Should these proposals have prevailed, the character of the church would be almost entirely redefined, leaving little beyond a lingering sentiment to tie us to the work of the pioneers.

It is with interest that we notice a curious but predictable phenomenon. The process that I am describing exerts a particular and peculiar impact on those reared on the internal culture of our church.

blessings,

oG

[Dr. Shane]

I have seen some "ministries" fight over who gets to help who

That is wonderful!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I have seen some "ministries" fight over who gets to help who

That is wonderful!

Shane; if you would have seen it you wouldn't say that. it was disgusting and no one ended up getting help.

[Tom Wetmore]

...We find ourselves as a church in a unique position. For some thirty-five years, publications sponsored by a self-pronounced progressive wing of the Adventist church have promoted reinterpretation of virtually every element of the Adventist faith. Should these proposals have prevailed, the character of the church would be almost entirely redefined, leaving little beyond a lingering sentiment to tie us to the work of the pioneers.

It is with interest that we notice a curious but predictable phenomenon. The process that I am describing exerts a particular and peculiar impact on those reared on the internal culture of our church.

Ger, I think you may be over-stating the situation, or perhaps ignoring the much more prolific publication of materials by the polar opposite elements of the church, the so-called "historic Adventist" that resist virtually any suggestion of progress or change on anything to do with the Church... unless it is to reverse progress or change back to some fixed pet point of the Church's history.

Ironically, the part overlooked by these folk is that this Church was at its founding and throughout its early history a progressive movement that spent much time and energy examining and reexamining "every element of the Adventist faith", always open to new light or "reinterpretation". But there has always been the anti-progressive element resisting and balking at change or progress. Sadly, the watershed point in our history that halted the progressive movement and virtually froze further progress was 1888. The forces against progress, change and "reinterpretation" prevailed and dominated for the next 75 plus years. Most present day "historic Adventists" are stuck in the mud and mire of that era and mindset. That the Church is re-awakening to its true historic roots of progressiveness is unsettling to those comfortable with the status quo.

[Dr. Shane]

I have known many loving historic Adventists and many loving liberal Adventists too. I have also known some judgmental people of both varieties. In my experience, the loving ones always outnumbered the judgmental ones but the judgmental ones have always made more noise.

[Overaged]

But there has always been the anti-progressive element resisting and balking at change or progress.

That the Church is re-awakening to its true historic roots of progressiveness is unsettling to those comfortable with the status quo.

It doesn't take a theologian or a rocket scientist or any such thing to know that there are a number of different definitions and manifestations of "progressive" Adventists. This "resisting" you speak of as a disadvantage; is in fact quite the opposite most times. This "reawakening" you laud may in fact be quite another type of movement.

We can take comfort in the scripture which says we can do nothing against the truth; only for the truth," and "all things work together for good if you love Jesus." [my paraphrases] I have seen this scripture ring true, over and over, and my experience here would "resist" your alleged "awakening."

[Overaged]

I have known many loving historic Adventists and many loving liberal Adventists too. I have also known some judgmental people of both varieties. In my experience, the loving ones always outnumbered the judgmental ones but the judgmental ones have always made more noise.

Now this is well spoken!