The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the writing of the Law...

[Twilight]

Is the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, nothing more than the "law" written in our hearts and minds, nothing more than learned behaviour?

Or is it a spiritual reality?

The literal presence of God with you and in you?

Over to you. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

[karl]

Is the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, nothing more than the "law" written in our hearts and minds, nothing more than learned behaviour?

Or is it a spiritual reality?

The literal presence of God with you and in you?

Over to you. :-)

Mark

When EGW was getting on the people at Minneapolis in 1888 she said that we had preached the Law until we were dry. She then said we must preach Christ IN the Law.

The indwelling Christ is the answer. Christ working IN us to will and to do of His good pleasure. That's what I was trying to get across to pnattmbc on the other thread. Facts are just the drawing card. Relationship is the objective.

[teresaq]

another one? well, i guess if at first you dont succeed, try, try again. lol

[SivartM]

One Breath for all...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Haven't we gone over this.....several times?????

What is it, Twilight, that you're looking for? You're obviously stumped about *something*, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out what the problem is!

[teresaq]

sooooo, relationship means having another being literally coming inside me and dwelling?

wonder why God made it so our spouses, children, friends all dwell outside of our bodies then?

[Tom Wetmore]

I was very tempted to respond, but children may be watching...

[karl]

another one? well, i guess if at first you dont succeed, try, try again. lol

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It was obvious that Tom was referring to Teresaq's last post...it didn't need to be repeated.

NOT THAT I HAVE ANYTHING IMPORTANT TO ADD TO ANYTHING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID, SINCE NOBODY READS WHAT I WRITE ANYHOW, IDONT KNOW WHY I EVEN BOTHER TO WRITE AT ALL, SO I JUST FEEL LIKE TELLLING EVERYONE WHERE TO GO AND/OR WHERE TO STICK IT.

[Woody]

Quote:

It would help if you quoted what you are responding (or not responding) to.

It's automatically difficult for him to quote anybody.

[karl]

KARL

I think TOM is not wanting to make a general

statement here

but then maybe I AM wrong

maybe I should let TOM say something

dgrimm60

Yes, I think that would be best. Or you could make a comment on the topic if you were so inclined.

[pnattmbtc]

What a thread!

[Woody]

It was obvious that Tom was referring to Teresaq's last post...it didn't need to be repeated.

NOT THAT I HAVE ANYTHING IMPORTANT TO ADD TO ANYTHING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID, SINCE NOBODY READS WHAT I WRITE ANYHOW, IDONT KNOW WHY I EVEN BOTHER TO WRITE AT ALL, SO I JUST FEEL LIKE TELLLING EVERYONE WHERE TO GO AND/OR WHERE TO STICK IT.

I read your posts. Keep up the good work Rudywoofs.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

It was obvious that Tom was referring to Teresaq's last post...it didn't need to be repeated.

NOT THAT I HAVE ANYTHING IMPORTANT TO ADD TO ANYTHING THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID, SINCE NOBODY READS WHAT I WRITE ANYHOW, IDONT KNOW WHY I EVEN BOTHER TO WRITE AT ALL, SO I JUST FEEL LIKE TELLLING EVERYONE WHERE TO GO AND/OR WHERE TO STICK IT.

I read your posts. Keep up the good work Rudywoofs.

So do I. :)

[pnattmbtc]

Me too.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks guys...I appreciate it.

[pnattmbtc]

p:I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

Mark:This is so wrong! It is God who changes us. We do not change ourselves.

We need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's literal presence to perform this.

We are confusing the writing of the Law on our hearts and minds with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit here.

This is "conversion by study" and it is not the gospel.

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

[teresaq]

thats ok. i got it - after some study!

[teresaq]

me too. but then i must since i respond to some of them. :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twlight

p:I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

Mark, I've quoted the following several times.

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

I never said we change ourselves. I don't think that's a fair representation of anything I've said anywhere, ever.

Let's take a look at this paragraph. It brings out the process of salvation starts with what? With revelation. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. Salvation depends upon our "beholding the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." The sight of Christ (this involves the illumination of the Holy Spirit) leads us to repentance. As we repent, what happens?

The "Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul." This is most assuredly not we "changing ourselves."

Continuing, "the thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ." We can't do this either, any more than a leopard can change its spots. This is what being born again is all about.

"The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works is us." This involves the work of the Holy Spirit upon our minds, transforming us so that we, who previously loved sin, and the ways of Satan, to love Christ and righteousness.

The writing of the law in the heart and mind refers to God's bringing us into harmony with Him. Here's a description of it:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

This is what it means to have the law written in the heart and mind.

and we are consciously mentally and heart-ily involved in that process! :)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Is the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, nothing more than the "law" written in our hearts and minds, nothing more than learned behaviour?

Or is it a spiritual reality?

The literal presence of God with you and in you?

Over to you. :-)

Mark

When EGW was getting on the people at Minneapolis in 1888 she said that we had preached the Law until we were dry. She then said we must preach Christ IN the Law.

The indwelling Christ is the answer. Christ working IN us to will and to do of His good pleasure. That's what I was trying to get across to pnattmbc on the other thread. Facts are just the drawing card. Relationship is the objective.

But did you know that many Adventists do not believe in the indwelling of a literal personal Holy Spirit Karl?

You will be amazed!

They think a "knowledge" of doctrine, is that "literal presence".

Watch and you will see this.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

sooooo, relationship means having another being literally coming inside me and dwelling?

wonder why God made it so our spouses, children, friends all dwell outside of our bodies then?

Teresa, there is something here you have missed:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twlight

p:I think the thing that is interactive is that God gives us understanding/clarity as we study spiritual things, and as we make moral decisions. I think when saying the power is in Christ, this is precisely what this means. We eat His flesh and drink His blood (i.e. receive His power) by studying and understanding His sayings (appropriate the concepts I mentioned, and other spiritual ones as our own).

Mark:This is so wrong! It is God who changes us. We do not change ourselves.

We need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit's literal presence to perform this.

We are confusing the writing of the Law on our hearts and minds with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit here.

This is "conversion by study" and it is not the gospel.

"You search the scripture, because in them you think you have eternal life, but you will not come to me that you may have life..."

Mark, I've quoted the following several times.

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

I never said we change ourselves. I don't think that's a fair representation of anything I've said anywhere, ever.

Let's take a look at this paragraph. It brings out the process of salvation starts with what? With revelation. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. Salvation depends upon our "beholding the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." The sight of Christ (this involves the illumination of the Holy Spirit) leads us to repentance. As we repent, what happens?

The "Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul." This is most assuredly not we "changing ourselves."

Continuing, "the thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ." We can't do this either, any more than a leopard can change its spots. This is what being born again is all about.

"The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works is us." This involves the work of the Holy Spirit upon our minds, transforming us so that we, who previously loved sin, and the ways of Satan, to love Christ and righteousness.

The writing of the law in the heart and mind refers to God's bringing us into harmony with Him. Here's a description of it:

Quote:

When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.

This is what it means to have the law written in the heart and mind.

I agree with that.

But you have not explained what you think the "indwelling of the Spirit" is?

Is it different to the law being written on our minds and hearts, or is it the same thing?

[The Searcher]

Dear friends,

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Paul, in Galatians indicates that the law convicts of sin. It tells us what sin is; without this declaration there is no knowledge of sin. Without this convicting, there is no desire for change. Christ, in John, tells us the Holy Spirit convicts men of sin. The Holy Spirit brings to our senses the requirements of the law and convicts each of us of our less than stellar performance in meeting the dictates of the law. But the law cannot save, it only condemns a sinner to death. As the Holy Spirit brings conviction, and as we see our utter helplessness, we can only cry out, "Who will save us from this body of Sin." But then the Holy Spirit brings us before the cross upon which the Lamb of God was slain. We see our substitute and accept our substitute. The Holy Spirit then convicts us that we need to bow before the cross and accept the sacrifice made for us and that through that acceptance we can be made clean. He indicates that we must change direction, confess our sins and make right those things which we have done against others. Next the Holy Spirit reveals to us the sinless life of Christ, and we are convicted of our less than Christ-like character. The Holy Spirit convicts that we cannot through our own workings change ourselves much less change direction. We cannot, through our own power, become like Christ. He then indicates that we must put our wills into His control daily. That through His leading and power, we will be made over comers. As we release our will into His hands, He will take us through the trials and experiences which will cleanse us from our distrust of allowing God to be totally in control of our lives. He will teach us how to become subject to God's will, walking in God's way, adhering to God's laws. In the process, He will bring us into deeper trust, a deeper love relationship, and a resultant, deeper intimacy with God. We will come to know Him whom to know is life eternal. As that relationship deepens, trust deepens, our intimacy with God deepens, and we come to desire within ourselves only that which pleases God. As the Holy Spirit continues His work in us, we will come to the point of total trust, a total love, and a total intimacy with God. Nothing within us will desire to depart from Him because we desire nothing more than that completely satisfying intimacy with God.

Notice that it is none of me. It is all the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in me which desires God, but the working of the Holy Spirit which brings a change to our hearts and minds. As Paul declares: "A renewing of our minds." But it requires a response to the convicting of the Spirit, the allowing of the Spirit to control and guide our lives, and continual daily walk of surrendering our will to the Spirit, allowing Him to lead and guide. And it comes down to trusting the Spirit to do what is necessary in order to bring us to the complete, total, and soul-satisfying intimacy with God. As the writers of Hebrews declares, "Without trust it is impossible to please Him. Because it is necessary for the one who comes to God to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently search for Him."

Sincerely,

The Seeker