The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the writing of the Law...

[pnattmbtc]

Partial indwelling is not an option because the head controls the body. So when the Holy Spirit has control of the brain/mind, He has control of the whole organism.

If it made any sense to think of the Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies in some such which doesn't involve the mind, my question could be addressed, as to what it means for the Holy Spirit to dwell within the foot. For example, germs can dwell within a body part. It would only be in some trivial sense like this that the Holy Spirit dwell within our bodies, if our minds are not involved.

Clearly what it would mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in our foot, or feet, is that our feet obey the instructions of the Holy Spirit.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Yes we need to have the thoughts changed pnat.

Then what you wrote was incorrect. You wrote,"It is the desire, the motives, the very "heart" of man, not his thoughts that need changing."

Jesus taught that out of the heart are mans "thoughts" driven.

The heart and the mind BOTH need changing, the desires, motives of the heart and the thoughts of the mind.

But it only works one way.

Why?

Because man "tries" to change his thoughts, by reform, by study, by strict discipline and constantly fails.

God steps in and changes the heart, the motives and desires and the man is set free.

--------------------

A man who has mentally assented to the truth, but has not been converted at the level of the heart cannot gain victory over sin.

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Let me ask you a question Pnat and I ask you to be honest.

Does it work for you?

Your doctrine, does it work?

Does "changing your thoughts" give you victory over sin?

Because I see a lot of Adventists that believe what you are stating, and I can be very honest when I say, they are not getting victory over sin.

They are fine when everything is fine, but turn the heat up and they crumble.

In other words pnat, does the doctrine you are espousing work?

It did not work for me....

Total abject misery.

Because no matter how hard I tried, something would pop up and wipe me out, something I had determined to deal with...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Partial indwelling is not an option because the head controls the body. So when the Holy Spirit has control of the brain/mind, He has control of the whole organism.

If it made any sense to think of the Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies in some such which doesn't involve the mind, my question could be addressed, as to what it means for the Holy Spirit to dwell within the foot. For example, germs can dwell within a body part. It would only be in some trivial sense like this that the Holy Spirit dwell within our bodies, if our minds are not involved.

Clearly what it would mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in our foot, or feet, is that our feet obey the instructions of the Holy Spirit.

I am making the same argument that you present here pnat, but I point you to the heart.

When the heart is possessed, then the mind also comes under the direct control of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly agencies.

[karl]

[

In other words pnat, does the doctrine you are espousing work?

It did not work for me....

Total abject misery.

Because no matter how hard I tried, something would pop up and wipe me out, something I had determined to deal with...

Mark :-)

"There is a science of Christianity to be mastered--a science as much deeper, broader, higher than any human science as the heavens are higher than the earth. The mind is to be disciplined, educated, trained; for we are to do service for God in ways that are not in harmony with inborn inclination. Hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil must be overcome. Often the education and training of a lifetime must be discarded, that one may become a learner in the school of Christ. Our hearts must be educated to become steadfast in God. We are to form habits of thought that will enable us to resist temptation. We must learn to look upward. The principles of the word of God--principles that are as high as heaven, and that compass eternity--we are to understand in their bearing upon our daily life. Every act, every word, every thought, is to be in accord with these principles. All must be brought into harmony with, and subject to, Christ." The Ministry of Healing (1905), page 453, paragraph 4

I think all of us would appreciate an easier, softer way than this constant battle with self.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

[

In other words pnat, does the doctrine you are espousing work?

It did not work for me....

Total abject misery.

Because no matter how hard I tried, something would pop up and wipe me out, something I had determined to deal with...

Mark :-)

"There is a science of Christianity to be mastered--a science as much deeper, broader, higher than any human science as the heavens are higher than the earth. The mind is to be disciplined, educated, trained; for we are to do service for God in ways that are not in harmony with inborn inclination. Hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil must be overcome. Often the education and training of a lifetime must be discarded, that one may become a learner in the school of Christ. Our hearts must be educated to become steadfast in God. We are to form habits of thought that will enable us to resist temptation. We must learn to look upward. The principles of the word of God--principles that are as high as heaven, and that compass eternity--we are to understand in their bearing upon our daily life. Every act, every word, every thought, is to be in accord with these principles. All must be brought into harmony with, and subject to, Christ." The Ministry of Healing (1905), page 453, paragraph 4

I think all of us would appreciate an easier, softer way than this constant battle with self.

There is an easier way...

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I think all of us would appreciate an easier, softer way than this constant battle with self.

There is an easier way...

The directions laid down in the word of God leave no room for compromise with evil. The Son of God was manifested that He might draw all men unto Himself. He came not to lull the world to sleep, but to point out the narrow path in which all must travel who reach at last the gates of the City of God. His children must follow where He has led the way; at whatever sacrifice of ease or selfish indulgence, at whatever cost of labor or suffering, they must maintain a constant battle with self.

The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 565, paragraph 3

Oh, how different are the standards by which God and men measure character. God sees many temptations resisted of which the world and even near friends never know--temptations in the home, in the heart. He sees the soul's humility in view of its own weakness; the sincere repentance over even a thought that is evil. He sees the wholehearted devotion to His service. He has noted the hours of hard battle with self--battle that won the victory. All this God and angels know. A book of remembrance is written before Him for them that fear the Lord and that think upon His name. Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 403, paragraph 3

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

To nobody in particular:

When I was watching my father die, I know the Holy Spirit was with him. My father was comatose and his heart was giving up the battle. For a brief second right before he died, he opened his eyes and gave us all a little smile. Then he died. The Holy Spirit was not just in his foot or hand; it was in his whole body. I think that final brief second was a gift to the family from the Holy Spirit. And it was manifested through my father's face.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

There is an easier way...

The directions laid down in the word of God leave no room for compromise with evil. The Son of God was manifested that He might draw all men unto Himself. He came not to lull the world to sleep, but to point out the narrow path in which all must travel who reach at last the gates of the City of God. His children must follow where He has led the way; at whatever sacrifice of ease or selfish indulgence, at whatever cost of labor or suffering, they must maintain a constant battle with self.

The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 565, paragraph 3

Oh, how different are the standards by which God and men measure character. God sees many temptations resisted of which the world and even near friends never know--temptations in the home, in the heart. He sees the soul's humility in view of its own weakness; the sincere repentance over even a thought that is evil. He sees the wholehearted devotion to His service. He has noted the hours of hard battle with self--battle that won the victory. All this God and angels know. A book of remembrance is written before Him for them that fear the Lord and that think upon His name. Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 403, paragraph 3

There is the requirements (expressed above), then the method (not expressed above). :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus taught that out of the heart are mans "thoughts" driven.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Partial indwelling is not an option because the head controls the body. So when the Holy Spirit has control of the brain/mind, He has control of the whole organism.

If it made any sense to think of the Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies in some such which doesn't involve the mind, my question could be addressed, as to what it means for the Holy Spirit to dwell within the foot. For example, germs can dwell within a body part. It would only be in some trivial sense like this that the Holy Spirit dwell within our bodies, if our minds are not involved.

Clearly what it would mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in our foot, or feet, is that our feet obey the instructions of the Holy Spirit.

T:I am making the same argument that you present here pnat, but I point you to the heart.

[karl]

The process originates with God. The love of God, shining from the cross, is revealed, and if man does not resist, he will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross. It is not man's reaching after God that does the trick, but God's reaching after man. God is looking for man, and has things to reveal to him, and man agrees that he needs and wants the things which God has for him. These things are spiritual things, spiritual truths, telling us of God's love for man, of God's character, and principles, the principles of His government, and the issues of the Great Controversy.

Actually it is both God reaching after man and man reaching after God.

Jeremiah 29:13

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[Twilight]

We are starting to go around in circles again Pnat. :-)

[Twilight]

Truth comes through the conscience and hits the heart.

Whatever is in the heart, drives the mental state of a man.

So the Mind is the gateway, through which spiritual truth comes.

But the heart is the place where the "work" is done.

------------

Man tries to work on the mind and fails.

God works on the heart and succeeds.

Mark :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

He came not to lull the world to sleep, but to point out the narrow path in which all must travel who reach at last the gates of the City of God. His children must follow where He has led the way; at whatever sacrifice of ease or selfish indulgence, at whatever cost of labor or suffering, they must maintain a constant battle with self.

The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 565, paragraph 3

There is the requirements (expressed above), then the method (not expressed above). :-)

Mark

Agreed that EGW has not stipulated the method of the warfare with self. Nor did Jesus stipulate the method by which we are to strive to enter in at the narrow gate.

One thing I have learned is to invite Him to cast me out. And, like the guy who rubs the bottle and gets a wish from the genie - the first thing I ask for is more wishes - more effective prayer and more of it.

[pnattmbtc]

p:The process originates with God. The love of God, shining from the cross, is revealed, and if man does not resist, he will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross. It is not man's reaching after God that does the trick, but God's reaching after man. God is looking for man, and has things to reveal to him, and man agrees that he needs and wants the things which God has for him. These things are spiritual things, spiritual truths, telling us of God's love for man, of God's character, and principles, the principles of His government, and the issues of the Great Controversy.

k:Actually it is both God reaching after man and man reaching after God.

Jeremiah 29:13

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Truth comes through the conscience and hits the heart.

Whatever is in the heart, drives the mental state of a man.

So the Mind is the gateway, through which spiritual truth comes.

But the heart is the place where the "work" is done.

------------

Man tries to work on the mind and fails.

God works on the heart and succeeds.

Through the mind, right? That is, God works on the heart through the gateway of the mind, and succeeds (assuming we are willing).

Also God works on the heart in the sense of the seat of the thoughts/desires/affections/emotions (or, one could say "kidneys," if we wish to use the Biblical language), not in the sense of the muscle which pumps blood.

In regards to our going in circles, it appears that way in a sense, although I've gotten some new insights.

One thing which seems circular is my asking you to explain what it means for the Holy Spirit to dwell in a physical body part, your not answering that, and my asking again.

I'll try again. You've said that the Holy Spirit can dwell in any body part. What would it mean to say that the Holy Spirit is dwelling in our foot?

[karl]

[

Luke 15 illustrates the principles well in the parables told there. One is of the lost coin, the lost sheep, and the prodigal son. In the case of the lost coin, the coin didn't even know it was lost. In the case of the sheep, the sheep knew it was lost, but couldn't do anything to find its way back. In the case of the prodigal, he knew how to return, but this was one who already knew the love of the father, and it was this love which drew him back. Also the story tells us that while he was a long ways away, the father was there waiting (and we're also told that this story, as touching as it is, still comes a long ways from describing the wonderful love of God as it is in its fullness.)

Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd, who goes to seek and to save that which was lost.

If our salvation depending upon our seeking for God, not a soul would be saved. It's always God who draws us to Him by His love.

I guess she blew it when she titled her book "Steps to Christ?"

Your last statement above is only true if you stipulate that we seek God first. Certainly God has made all the overtures and has given us every reason, like the prodigal son, to seek Him. But seek Him we must.

Blessed are they that keep His testimonies, and that seek Him with the whole heart.

The Lord will bless all who will seek Him with the whole heart, and who with humble souls and earnest purpose strive to follow the example of Christ.

The whole mind must be molded by the Holy Spirit. Divine power will combine with human effort, when we seek earnestly to be complete in Christ Jesus. The Lord will help every one who seeks Him with all his heart.

The Friend of sinners knows how to help and strengthen and bless those who, having sinned, turn again unto the Lord. Those who seek God with the whole heart will find Him a present help in every time of need. He will heal the erring, instead of denouncing and crushing them. He will hear the penitential prayers, and will pardon the repentant ones, doing them good, according to the great riches of His grace. . . .

Do not rest satisfied that in the ordinary course of the season, rain will fall. Ask for it. The growth and perfection of the seed rests not with the husbandman. God alone can ripen the harvest. But man's cooperation is required. God's work for us demands the action of our mind, the exercise of our faith. We must seek His favors with the whole heart if the showers of grace are to come to us.

[pnattmbtc]

The words "seek" are two different words in the original languages. In the sense of looking for someone or something which is missing, this is only God. In the sense of "pay attention to," "investigate" etc. (that I listed before) then yes, that describes us.

Consider the parables of Luke 15. They should make the point clear.

[Twilight]

Agreed that EGW has not stipulated the method of the warfare with self. Nor did Jesus stipulate the method by which we are to strive to enter in at the narrow gate.

One thing I have learned is to invite Him to cast me out. And, like the guy who rubs the bottle and gets a wish from the genie - the first thing I ask for is more wishes - more effective prayer and more of it.

I may start a new thread on this soon Karl, about the warfare and share some of the I have been shown and am being shown, not as one that has arrived, but as one who is in the "thick of it".

Will do that soon. :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Agreed that EGW has not stipulated the method of the warfare with self. Nor did Jesus stipulate the method by which we are to strive to enter in at the narrow gate.

One thing I have learned is to invite Him to cast me out. And, like the guy who rubs the bottle and gets a wish from the genie - the first thing I ask for is more wishes - more effective prayer and more of it.

I may start a new thread on this soon Karl, about the warfare and share some of the I have been shown and am being shown, not as one that has arrived, but as one who is in the "thick of it".

Will do that soon. :-)

Good deal. I'm all for it. Enjoying very much the conversation between you and pnattmbc and others peeking in from time to time.

I can think of lots worse things we could be discussing. If the science of salvation is not our topic, something less worthwhile will come along and usurp its place.

[karl]

The words "seek" are two different words in the original languages. In the sense of looking for someone or something which is missing, this is only God. In the sense of "pay attention to," "investigate" etc. (that I listed before) then yes, that describes us.

Consider the parables of Luke 15. They should make the point clear.

Actually, you can draw the wrong (forensic) conclusions from two of the parables. Remember Jesus' introduction to the parables - he said that this is what the kingdom of heaven is like. He did not say, "this is what the sinner is like." He was emphasizing God's care for us, not our response to God.

There is a third category of seeking that you did not include above, and that is the category that applies here. The category is one of seeking for someone you have lost connection with emotionally. Seeking a relationship. Like people do when they go to a counselor. This is not so much getting out the research books and finding out all the facts about the others' phlegmatic or sanguine personality, or blood type or whether or not you are compatible according to the experts. It is seeking actual intimacy in our relationship with God.

[pnattmbtc]

Actually, you can draw the wrong (forensic) conclusions from two of the parables.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I may start a new thread on this soon Karl, about the warfare and share some of the I have been shown and am being shown, not as one that has arrived, but as one who is in the "thick of it".

Will do that soon. :-)

Good deal. I'm all for it. Enjoying very much the conversation between you and pnattmbc and others peeking in from time to time.

I can think of lots worse things we could be discussing. If the science of salvation is not our topic, something less worthwhile will come along and usurp its place.

Here it is Karl.

Enjoy. :-)

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/325489.html#Post325489

[teresaq]

bumped for pnat

[pnattmbtc]

In case anyone is interesting in discussing this further, I'm reposting from above something I wrote which I think was clearly stated.

(karl said:)Partial indwelling is not an option because the head controls the body. So when the Holy Spirit has control of the brain/mind, He has control of the whole organism.

"If it made any sense to think of the Holy Spirit dwelling within our bodies in some such which doesn't involve the mind, my question could be addressed, as to what it means for the Holy Spirit to dwell within the foot. For example, germs can dwell within a body part. It would only be in some trivial sense like this that the Holy Spirit dwell within our bodies, if our minds are not involved.

Clearly what it would mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in our foot, or feet, is that our feet obey the instructions of the Holy Spirit."

Especially I think the last sentence clearly indicates what it would mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in our feet. I'm wondering if anyone disagrees with what I've written here (the part in quotes especially).