The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the writing of the Law...

[The Searcher]

Dear Friends,

It is writer of Hebrews not writers. I am sorry for that mistake.

Sincerely,

The Seeker

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with that.

But you have not explained what you think the "indwelling of the Spirit" is?

Is it different to the law being written on our minds and hearts, or is it the same thing?

What did I say before?

[pnattmbtc]

But did you know that many Adventists do not believe in the indwelling of a literal personal Holy Spirit Karl?

You will be amazed!

They think a "knowledge" of doctrine, is that "literal presence".

Watch and you will see this.

If you've somehow gotten this idea from what I've said, you've really misunderstood.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But did you know that many Adventists do not believe in the indwelling of a literal personal Holy Spirit Karl?

You will be amazed!

They think a "knowledge" of doctrine, is that "literal presence".

Watch and you will see this.

If you've somehow gotten this idea from what I've said, you've really misunderstood.

I haven't got that idea from you pnattmbtc, but I know what Mark is talking about. I used to be one of those "Dragnet" Christians (just the facts, ma'am.)

[pnattmbtc]

I found this statement while looking at things for a different thread:

Quote:

Truth is sacred, divine. It is stronger and more powerful than anything else in the formation of a character after the likeness of Christ. In it there is fullness of joy. When it is cherished in the heart, the love of Christ is preferred to the love of any human being. This is Christianity. This is the love of God in the soul. Thus pure, unadulterated truth occupies the citadel of the being. The words are fulfilled, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." There is a nobleness in the life of the one who lives and works under the vivifying influence of the truth. . . .(RC 111;ellipsis original)

This speaks to the importance of truth. Truth affects the heart. If the heart did not involve mental processes, this wouldn't be the case. This quote also goes to show that truth is not simply a "head thing." As we believe the truth, it impacts our whole being, from the top of our heads to our toe-nails. Human beings are indivisible.

A "head" thing, to my mind, would be something along the lines of what Robert has been presenting, the idea being that we need to understand a certain formula. Christ died as us 2,000 years ago, and we were saved in Him. We need to believe this fact, and not believe anything in addition to this, or we're guilty of legalism. It doesn't seem like this should be an accurate representation of what he's saying, so I hope he corrects me, but this is what I've been understanding.

So this is, to me, a head thing. The question comes up as to how this has an impact on me. I think this is a point karl has been raising.

What I've been bringing out are truths involving the love of God. When we perceive the risk God took, and Christ took, that moves us (or should.) Perceiving the sacrifice which Christ made on our behalf, His willingness to be eternally lost, that we (each individual me) should be saved, suffering the death that was ours that we might live the life that was His -- these are not head things! As I recall, the SOP tells us that to not be moved as one contemplates the scenes of the cross is sin.

To my mind, everything revolves around the character of God.

[karl]

As I recall, the SOP tells us that to not be moved as one contemplates the scenes of the cross is sin.

To my mind, everything revolves around the character of God.

To my mind, everything revolves around the transforming John 17 relationship between God and man. The facts are the drawing. The relationship is the objective. And for us to know the Truth in the intimate way God wants us to know Him, IS salvation. By beholding we become CHANGED.

[pnattmbtc]

John 17 tells us that to know God is eternal life, which involves knowing His character.

Quote:

It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. By misrepresenting the attributes of God, Satan leads men to conceive of Him in a false character. With many, a philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few.(GC 583)

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that the relationship with God is what's important, just bringing out the importance of God's character, without which, we're not knowing the true God.

Also, there's more than just man involved in the Great Controversy, which should be kept in mind.

[karl]

John 17 tells us that to know God is eternal life, which involves knowing His character.

Quote:

It is as easy to make an idol of false doctrines and theories as to fashion an idol of wood or stone. By misrepresenting the attributes of God, Satan leads men to conceive of Him in a false character. With many, a philosophical idol is enthroned in the place of Jehovah; while the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation, is worshiped by but few.(GC 583)

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that the relationship with God is what's important, just bringing out the importance of God's character, without which, we're not knowing the true God.

Also, there's more than just man involved in the Great Controversy, which should be kept in mind.

Yes, I agree with you pnattmbtc, that the character of God must be preached and the truth must be told about Him. I have been truly impressed with your insights into the truth about God.

The truth about God, His law, His Self-sacrificing nature, His love, His forbearance, His power, his wisdom are nothing short of mindblowing.

But these facts are not the relationship which they draw us toward. They are the enticement. Intimate relationship with his creatures is God's objective in the plan of salvation, not just enticement. God does not have a hysterical personality disorder.

Yes there are more than earthlings involved in the great controversy, and the objective is to improve the relationships of all creatures with God.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes there are more than earthlings involved in the great controversy, and the objective is to improve the relationships of all creatures with God.

Sure, and with each other.

[teresaq]

But did you know that many Adventists do not believe in the indwelling of a literal personal Holy Spirit Karl?

You will be amazed!

They think a "knowledge" of doctrine, is that "literal presence".

Watch and you will see this.

[Twilight]

Dear friends,

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Paul, in Galatians indicates that the law convicts of sin. It tells us what sin is; without this declaration there is no knowledge of sin. Without this convicting, there is no desire for change. Christ, in John, tells us the Holy Spirit convicts men of sin. The Holy Spirit brings to our senses the requirements of the law and convicts each of us of our less than stellar performance in meeting the dictates of the law. But the law cannot save, it only condemns a sinner to death. As the Holy Spirit brings conviction, and as we see our utter helplessness, we can only cry out, "Who will save us from this body of Sin." But then the Holy Spirit brings us before the cross upon which the Lamb of God was slain. We see our substitute and accept our substitute. The Holy Spirit then convicts us that we need to bow before the cross and accept the sacrifice made for us and that through that acceptance we can be made clean. He indicates that we must change direction, confess our sins and make right those things which we have done against others. Next the Holy Spirit reveals to us the sinless life of Christ, and we are convicted of our less than Christ-like character. The Holy Spirit convicts that we cannot through our own workings change ourselves much less change direction. We cannot, through our own power, become like Christ. He then indicates that we must put our wills into His control daily. That through His leading and power, we will be made over comers. As we release our will into His hands, He will take us through the trials and experiences which will cleanse us from our distrust of allowing God to be totally in control of our lives. He will teach us how to become subject to God's will, walking in God's way, adhering to God's laws. In the process, He will bring us into deeper trust, a deeper love relationship, and a resultant, deeper intimacy with God. We will come to know Him whom to know is life eternal. As that relationship deepens, trust deepens, our intimacy with God deepens, and we come to desire within ourselves only that which pleases God. As the Holy Spirit continues His work in us, we will come to the point of total trust, a total love, and a total intimacy with God. Nothing within us will desire to depart from Him because we desire nothing more than that completely satisfying intimacy with God.

Notice that it is none of me. It is all the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in me which desires God, but the working of the Holy Spirit which brings a change to our hearts and minds. As Paul declares: "A renewing of our minds." But it requires a response to the convicting of the Spirit, the allowing of the Spirit to control and guide our lives, and continual daily walk of surrendering our will to the Spirit, allowing Him to lead and guide. And it comes down to trusting the Spirit to do what is necessary in order to bring us to the complete, total, and soul-satisfying intimacy with God. As the writers of Hebrews declares, "Without trust it is impossible to please Him. Because it is necessary for the one who comes to God to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently search for Him."

Sincerely,

The Seeker

You are correct, this is the over-arching principle.

This is the building.

But we need to examine the bricks sometimes. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I agree with that.

But you have not explained what you think the "indwelling of the Spirit" is?

Is it different to the law being written on our minds and hearts, or is it the same thing?

What did I say before?

I believe you believe it is the very same thing?

That is the very distinct impression I have, am I incorrect in that?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But did you know that many Adventists do not believe in the indwelling of a literal personal Holy Spirit Karl?

You will be amazed!

They think a "knowledge" of doctrine, is that "literal presence".

Watch and you will see this.

If you've somehow gotten this idea from what I've said, you've really misunderstood.

Then I have misunderstood.

Do you believe in the literal spiritual presence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within you?

That God is personally in you?

Within your heart (your definition of heart of course)?

[Twilight]

I found this statement while looking at things for a different thread:

Quote:

Truth is sacred, divine. It is stronger and more powerful than anything else in the formation of a character after the likeness of Christ. In it there is fullness of joy. When it is cherished in the heart, the love of Christ is preferred to the love of any human being. This is Christianity. This is the love of God in the soul. Thus pure, unadulterated truth occupies the citadel of the being. The words are fulfilled, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." There is a nobleness in the life of the one who lives and works under the vivifying influence of the truth. . . .(RC 111;ellipsis original)

This speaks to the importance of truth. Truth affects the heart. If the heart did not involve mental processes, this wouldn't be the case. This quote also goes to show that truth is not simply a "head thing." As we believe the truth, it impacts our whole being, from the top of our heads to our toe-nails. Human beings are indivisible.

A "head" thing, to my mind, would be something along the lines of what Robert has been presenting, the idea being that we need to understand a certain formula. Christ died as us 2,000 years ago, and we were saved in Him. We need to believe this fact, and not believe anything in addition to this, or we're guilty of legalism. It doesn't seem like this should be an accurate representation of what he's saying, so I hope he corrects me, but this is what I've been understanding.

So this is, to me, a head thing. The question comes up as to how this has an impact on me. I think this is a point karl has been raising.

What I've been bringing out are truths involving the love of God. When we perceive the risk God took, and Christ took, that moves us (or should.) Perceiving the sacrifice which Christ made on our behalf, His willingness to be eternally lost, that we (each individual me) should be saved, suffering the death that was ours that we might live the life that was His -- these are not head things! As I recall, the SOP tells us that to not be moved as one contemplates the scenes of the cross is sin.

To my mind, everything revolves around the character of God.

It is the desire, the motives, the very "heart" of man, not his thoughts that need changing.

A man can have his thoughts changed in church, yet still sleep with his friends wife the next day.

"Mental assent" does not change someone.

That is why God wants the heart.

The heart is the "centre" of a man, here the man is expressed in his most basic ways.

Out of this expression, out of the desires and motives, the thoughts find their growth, their soil.

This is the point I am trying to get across.

I am personally fully convicted that it is the literal heart. But is that a test?

No!

It just "helps".

My brother will be just as saved if he sincerely believes that the heart is a faculty of the mind, but I will just have to accept his loving apology when he gets to heaven, for not listening to me, or visa versa of course...

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

That God is personally in you?

you dont see this as pantheism?

what do you think of ellen whites assessment of kellogs, the living temple, if i may ask? :)

[Woody]

There are a number here on the forum with apparent pantheistic beliefs. I've approached the topic with them but they deny it. I guess ignorance is bliss.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Twilight:It is the desire, the motives, the very "heart" of man, not his thoughts that need changing.

These things aren't mutually exclusive. To assert that our thoughts do not need to change can't be right. By beholding we become changed. What we choose to think about has a profound impact on our entire being. It impacts our desires and motives.

Here's a typical statement from the SOP speaking of the importance of our thoughts.

Quote:

The mind will never cease to be active. It is open to influences, good or bad. As the human countenance is stamped by the sunbeam on the polished plate of the artist, so are thoughts and impressions stamped on the mind of the child; and whether these impressions are of the earth earthy, or moral and religious, they are well-nigh ineffaceable. When reason is awakening, the mind is most susceptible; and so the very first lessons are of great importance. These lessons have a powerful influence in the formation of character. If they are of the right stamp, and if, as the child advances in years, they are followed up with patient perseverance, the earthly and the eternal destiny will be shaped for good. This is the word of the Lord: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.(Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, page 143;emphasis mine)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That God is personally in you?

you dont see this as pantheism?

what do you think of ellen whites assessment of kellogs, the living temple, if i may ask?

If we are not relying on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for victory, then we are under the old covenant.

To label that as "pantheism" is error of the highest order.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

Twilight:It is the desire, the motives, the very "heart" of man, not his thoughts that need changing.

These things aren't mutually exclusive. To assert that our thoughts do not need to change can't be right. By beholding we become changed. What we choose to think about has a profound impact on our entire being. It impacts our desires and motives.

Here's a typical statement from the SOP speaking of the importance of our thoughts.

Quote:

The mind will never cease to be active. It is open to influences, good or bad. As the human countenance is stamped by the sunbeam on the polished plate of the artist, so are thoughts and impressions stamped on the mind of the child; and whether these impressions are of the earth earthy, or moral and religious, they are well-nigh ineffaceable. When reason is awakening, the mind is most susceptible; and so the very first lessons are of great importance. These lessons have a powerful influence in the formation of character. If they are of the right stamp, and if, as the child advances in years, they are followed up with patient perseverance, the earthly and the eternal destiny will be shaped for good. This is the word of the Lord: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.(Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, page 143;emphasis mine)

Yes we need to have the thoughts changed pnat.

But when the desire and motives are changed, the thoughts naturally follow.

It is the desires and motives the Lord fixes first, then the thoughts follow.

But we tend to think that if we change the thoughts, we are there.

But if the underlying desires and motives have not been changed, then we are just doing surface work.

And the seed will show itself again at some point.

We can control our thoughts up to a point, but when great trial or pressure comes, then we will soon see how "succesful" we really are...

Have you ever wondered why "old sins" pop up again from time to time, sins you thought you had the victory over?

It is because it has not been dealt with at the level of the heart.

-------------

Our real danger is in trying to change the "thoughts" by ourselves, we concentrate on this and we end up with salvation by "positive thinking".

And that mistake then never allows us to enter into the gift of the heart change that God desires to perform in us.

Mark :-)

[karl]

"That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels." The Review and Herald, November 6, 1900

[Twilight]

"That perfection of character which the Lord requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God will accept of nothing less than the service of the entire human organism. It is not enough to bring into action certain parts of the living machinery. All parts must work in perfect harmony, or the service will be deficient. It is thus that man is qualified to cooperate with God in representing Christ to the world. Thus God desires to prepare a people to stand before Him pure and holy, that He may introduce them into the society of heavenly angels." The Review and Herald, November 6, 1900

But when the truth is received as truth by the heart, it has passed through the conscience, and has captivated the soul with its pure principles. It is placed in the heart by the Holy Spirit, who reveals its beauty to the mind, that its transforming power may be seen in the character. . . . {RC 217.4}

All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. {AG 223.4}

It is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this bad habit or that bad habit and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the heart.... {AG 223.5

[Twilight]

They are not at enmity with Satan. The heart is the treasure house of sin. Not being expelled, it is hidden until an hour of opportunity, and then is revealed and springs into action. The first work is with the heart. Truth, the love of Jesus must supply the vacuum, Saith Christ, Make the tree good and the fruit will be good. . . . {PC 344.2}

We must as a people rise up from our formality. We must enter the straight gate. Satan has placed his active agents all along the passage to dispute the way of every soul. Christ has encouraged his followers not to be intimidated, but to press, urge your way through. Strive to enter in at the straight gate, "For many I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, but shall not be able." Darling cherished idols will have to be given up, the sins that have been indulged in, even if it comes as close as the plucking out of the right eye, or cutting off the right arm. Arouse! Force your way through the very armies of hell that oppose your passage. {PC 345.1}

[pnattmbtc]

Yes we need to have the thoughts changed pnat.

[pnattmbtc]

A bit above there was discussion regarding the Holy Spirit's dwelling in our body, and that He could dwell anywhere in our body. I'm curious as to what this means. Let's choose a specific body part, the foot. What does it mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells within our foot? Mark, if you would address this, I'd appreciated it.

[karl]

A bit above there was discussion regarding the Holy Spirit's dwelling in our body, and that He could dwell anywhere in our body. I'm curious as to what this means. Let's choose a specific body part, the foot. What does it mean to say that the Holy Spirit dwells within our foot? Mark, if you would address this, I'd appreciated it.

It's all or nothing. Partial indwelling is not an option.