"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[skyblue888]

Continues from #344320 THE FINAL SHOWDOWN

Every question of truth and error in the longstanding controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God, has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted with respect to the eternal good of His people, and the good of all the worlds that He has created. 'All Thy works shall praise Thee, 0 Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee.' Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare, 'Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.'" The Great Controversy, 670, 671.

Once Satan and his followers have been brought to acknowledge the justice and righteousness of God, the stage is set for the final act of the drama—earth's and heaven's actual purification from the stain and presence of sin.

This will be accomplished by fire. The Scripture says, ". . . and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:9, 10, 14, 15.

"'Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.' 'The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.' 'Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.' Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6 (margin). Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,—'the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.' Isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.

"The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. They 'shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah." The Great Controversy, 672, 673.

These texts and statements are familiar to Bible students. Invariably they have given a picture of God personally pouring down fire upon the wicked and thus bringing about their final end. This is no problem to the average person for he considers that God has a perfect right to destroy those who have rebelled against Him. Furthermore, he knows of no other way whereby the problem can be solved. The criminal must be executed or he will go on making trouble forever. Of course this is man's thinking but it is neither the thinking nor the way of God.

There is no difference in the language used in Revelation or The Great Controversy from that used in other parts of the Scriptures describing the outpouring of terrible judgments.

"Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Genesis 19:24

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." Exodus 7:3

"And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." Numbers 21:6

"But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." 1 Samuel 16:14

"But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." Matthew 22:7

We have already considered each of these statements from the Lord. It has been demonstrated that there must be a different definition of the terms and expressions used to describe the behaviour of men. Trouble is experienced in understanding these expressions in regard to God's character when no distinction is made between man's ways and God's ways.

Those previous studies into these verses confirmed the truth that when God pours out fire, sends serpents, or such like, it is not something dispensed from His hands as a response to His personal decree. Rather, it happens only when He is obliged to depart from the scene thus leaving matters in the hands of men and devils.

Then, being out of His control, the rod of power descends in merciless power upon the defenceless heads of the self-willed.

There is no reason to suppose that these verses in Revelation are to be understood any differently. What those expressions mean throughout the remainder of the Scriptures they must still mean at the end of them. Therefore, in the end, God does not decree that the wicked shall die by fire and then set about executing this decree by personally exercising His power. God does not decree what punishment shall befall the evildoer. He foresees what will happen and foretells it. But He neither chooses nor organizes it to be just that way.

In the light of all the truths learned so far in this study, consider the sequence of events in the drama of destruction outside the city. When the wicked are raised at the close of the millennium, it is only possible for them to live safely upon the earth by God's holding firm hands on the rod of power. All the mighty forces of nature are thus held in restraint in order to afford to the lost, the opportunity of seeing the true nature of the great controversy. Thus, there is no outburst of fire and brimstone during the time that they make their preparations and advance upon the city.

But when the revelations of the mystery of God have been completed while simultaneously they have been convincingly shown where they have rejected the loving appeals of God, the time has come for the final settlement. Every one of these individuals has, during this life, made an irrevocable decision rejecting salvation in preference for Satan's kingdom. God knows that once this point has been reached, the wicked will never change no matter what opportunity may be given to them. It is for this reason that Jesus solemnly intones as He leaves the sanctuary, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11.

This is the declaration of Jesus Christ in evaluating the condition of the wicked. It is not to be supposed that Christ says this because He and the Father have decided that probation can no longer be continued, and for this reason those who have not availed themselves of salvation during the designated time limit, are lost forever. It is because, no matter what revelations might be made to them or opportunities given, their decision is final.

The declaration made by Christ will be vindicated by the demonstration of its truthfulness at the close of the millennium. Those whom we thought had gone down to their graves without the necessary chance to see the light, will then be afforded the most comprehensive, clear, and wonderful revelation of the truth. It will convince but not convert them. Their rejection of such light as came to them in this life, will have hardened them beyond any possibility of change.

Their conviction that God is right after all, will be expressed by their bowing before Him and saying so, but they do not plead His forgiveness nor ask to be accepted into His kingdom. All that, is foreign and distasteful to them. They still want to live but on their own terms. Knowing that this cannot be and that accordingly, they are eternally to be deprived of any life, they rise from their knees in a frenzy of disappointment and rage and turn upon him who has robbed them of everything.

They see in Satan the cause of all their troubles. The weapons intended for the city will be directed against him and he will employ every evasive maneuver conceivable, to avoid them. Then the fires will start. Exactly how, we are not told. One thing is certain. Men never go to war without generating fire, especially when it is nuclear warfare. Thus, when they hurl their atomic and cosmic weapons at the devil, they will certainly start a mighty conflagration.

to be continued

[pnattmbtc]

John317, a second question I've been asking is, given that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits, how do we know when what is said is direct and when it's permissive? For example, consider the fiery serpents. The Bible says presents God as taking direct action, but His action was passive. How do we know God didn't send fiery serpents upon the Israelites, like the Bible says? Why aren't we trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't say if we suggest that God merely removed His protection from the serpents that were already there? Why aren't we guilty of having a wrong theology, since we have to "interpret" what was said?

[pnattmbtc]

Speaking of pejorative,confrontational, and supposing....how bout responding to the points made rather than badmouthing the style of presentation (and thereby,the presenter)??

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed all points that have been addressed to me.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: John317

If it is self-evident that I agree with her, why did you say that I disagreed with her statement?

I was speaking in the same manner you were, to give an example of what I was referring to.

Quote:

Here's what I wrote in the original post:

What, then, does the Bible say? What does Ellen White say in EW 51-53, 290-291, and GC 660, 661, 673? Those passages could not be clearer. Why would anyone be interested in trying to make it look like they don't mean exactly what they say?

We should be content to let the Bible speak for itself. For instance, when the Bible says that "fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours the wicked," we should not try to explain it away by saying the Bible means something other than what it says. Adventists don't feel the need of doing that with any other texts. It would be difference if we had verses in Scripture that explain the verse as meaning something other than what it says.

Similarly when the Bible says that Satan and the evil angels were "cast out" or driven out of heaven, we shouldn't feel it is necessary to tell people that Satan wasn't really cast out of heaven.

This style of writing is pejorative and confrontational because it supposes that those with whom you disagree are

1.Interested in trying to make it look like they don't mean exactly what they say.

2.Not content to let the Bible speak for itself.

3.Trying to explain the Bible means something different than what it says.

Speaking of pejorative, confrontational,and presuming...How bout addressing the points made instead of impuning the style of presentation (and thereby, the presenter),pnatt??

[pnattmbtc]

Doug, did you repost this by mistake? Also I'm interested in your response to #344219.

[skyblue888]

CONTINUES FROM #344328 THE FINAL SHOWDOWN

As in the flood of water when the fountains of the earth were broken up so that water rushed out from beneath the surface, so the stores of oil and coal still hidden from men in the bowels of the earth will burst forth in flaming torrents upon the surface.

"Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As He called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from His arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years He will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons which He has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood." Spiritual Gifts, 3:87.

In the original flood, water also poured down from above. Likewise it is to be expected that fire will rain down from the heavens. The great source of this would be the sun, as from our study of the principles, we know that it does not come from God personally. When God's presence was withdrawn from the earth in Noah's day, both the sun and the moon were affected. Therefore, when God's presence is again withdrawn in the same way at the close of the millennium, the sun will again be affected. In its final stages of decay resulting from the effects of sin in this earth, it could well erupt in great explosions, projecting streams of fire far out into the solar system and onto this earth. If this is to be so, then fire from above would mingle with the fire from beneath, exactly as the waters did when this earth was flooded. The whole earth will be enveloped in a sea of flame on which the Holy City will ride as did the ark. Within it, the ransomed will be safe and secure until the destruction is completed.

In this final annihilation, the wicked do not all take the same time to perish. There is a direct relationship between the extent to which they have sinned and the length of time they suffer.

"I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, 'The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.'

"Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, 'Amen!' " Early Writings, 294, 295.

The question immediately arises as to how the wicked could suffer exactly according to their desserts unless some intelligence calculates the measure of their individual punishments and so controls events that they will be kept alive until the full punishment has been exacted. On the surface, this would seem to be impossible. Therefore it is considered that God, being the only one with the power to either estimate the deserved chastisement or to control its administration, must surely be the one who executes the sinners in the end.

Anyone who understands and accepts the principles laid down so far, will recognize that there must be another answer. Perhaps it has not yet been revealed. This does not drive us to the conclusion that inasmuch as the real answer is wanting, we have to accept another. One thing must be very clear. It is that God does not execute the sinner, now, or in the past, or ever. It is sin which does that.

To understand how sin can do this and selectively punish one more than another, requires knowledge of laws which as yet are beyond our ken. One thing we do know however, is that the more sinful a person is, the more desperately he struggles to live in the face of death. The true child of God does not fight the Grim Reaper. He knows his time has come and that his life is safe in the hands of God. But not so with the rebel against God's laws and government. He resists with all the power of his soul, and is able to prolong his life beyond its natural span.

No one has been so great a sinner as Satan, and no one will fight the inroads of death with greater determination than he. Thus he will prolong his life far beyond that point where he would have died if he had resigned himself to his fate. In so doing he will extend his suffering until he has suffered for all the sins he has committed and caused others to commit.

Finally it will be all over and the fire which had consumed the wicked, will burn up the rubbish and purify the earth. See Early Writings, 295.

The deadly experiment will be ended and it will be demonstrated eternally that through it all, God did not change. When sin entered it changed angels, men, the animals, and the operations of nature, but it did not change God. Nothing was introduced into His ways after the coming of sin which was not there before. He never destroyed before sin entered, never executed, never punished, and never forced. The entry of sin did not cause Him to begin doing any of these things in order to solve the problems sin imposed upon Him.

Satan and evil angels did their utmost to provoke Him to anger and arise to sweep away the rebellious inhabitants of the earth, but He would not be provoked, angered, insulted, or hurt. He emerges from the whole miserable test as immaculate as He entered it. Satan has not been able to sustain a single point against Him and it is shown that the way of the cross—the power of self-sacrificing love, which serves, no matter what the cost to the server—is stronger than all the ways of force combined.

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: doug

Speaking of pejorative,confrontational, and supposing....how bout responding to the points made rather than badmouthing the style of presentation (and thereby,the presenter)??

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed all points that have been addressed to me.

yes, you have, over and over, and in the most patient manner.

i am so sorry to see that when we call ourselves "christians" that we really dont know what true christian behavior is.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

It doesn't sound like it's saying we should select what we like and reject the rest. That is what people do with the Bible. Ellen White had some harsh words for people who do what you do with her writings and what you suggest others do.

I don't see how there can be middle ground with Ellen White. She claimed that God spoke through her, gave her messages and visions, and so forth. Either she was deceived, or worse, or God did the things which she claimed.

Not just Ellen White, but Scripture has harsh things to say about those who reject God's servants. We should be very careful in how we deal with others, especially in terms of judging.

i wish others could see they are the ones guilty of what they are accusing others of, but conviction comes of God....

[pnattmbtc]

Just to be clear, on this particular post (this last one, regarding EGW), I'm in agreement with John317.

[teresaq]

and even better and more meaningful, most of the world will accept satans appearing as if He were Christ!! guess that makes them right?

most will make and enforce the sunday law against sabbath keepers, since majority "wins" twould appear we are on the wrong side.... oh dear...

Quote:

Archie777:

For the sake of others here I agree there are times when circumstances forced Jesus (the principal player and power in the OT and in the NT) to withdraw His protection and permit evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction within His established and enforced limits. He leaves nothing to chance or Satan. Examples include Babylon and Rome conquering Jerusalem.

I also believe Jesus has commanded holy men and holy angels to cause death and destruction. Examples include the sabbath-breaker Moses stoned to death and the first-born of Egypt.

I also believe Jesus has employed the forces of nature to cause death and destruction. Examples include the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

And, I believe the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness during the final judgment. Literal fire from above and below will also play a part in the suffering and death of the wicked.

Quote:

doug yowell: OK,Archie. That's three of us.

I agree, too. But I think that's a lot more than three us who agree with what Archie777 says there. For one thing, virtually the entire Seventh-day Adventist church, including Ellen White and the early Adventist pioneers, would agree with it, too.

[Archie777]

A: It's interesting to me that Robert, at least, is willing to say he might be wrong about God and the final judgment of the wicked. Are others more certain about their position?

P: If you're going to say something like this, please provide the quote you have in mind. I'm sure there's some context to this. I'd imagine Robert is sure about some things regarding the judgment, but not 100% sure regarding some of the details. Assuming this is what he meant, I would hope everyone fell into this category.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: ...Yes, I need more explanation. I need some explanation which addresses the question.

I'm asking....why you think it's possible for God to do the things you think He will do, which is to set people on fire to torture them for days. ...

Let's say your father or son or brother. Let's say I said that your father or son or brother believed in setting people on fire as a form of punishment, that this is how he favors punishing criminals, basing this in some article of his that I read. Say you respond, "No, that's not possible! I know my father (or son or brother), and he's not like that! He would never do that! You must have misunderstood what he wrote!"

I think it's possible for God to burn people up in literal fire and destroy them-- and to cause them to be punished according to the deeds done in the body-- because, first, the Bible says He will do it, and secondly, because I believe it is right for him to do it. I believe it is consistent with His holy, just, loving, merciful character as the Creator, Lawgiver, Redeemer and Judge of the whole universe. This is shown in what God has done and said throughout the entire Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit has convicted me though the study of the Scriptures and the Spirit of prophecy that this is what God will do. I have no doubt of it. I'm 100% certain, as certain as I am that God exists and that Christ is my Savior and the Savior of the world. The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy don't speak out of both sides of their mouth.

I believe the reason you have a hard time with this concept is that you evidently don't consider what Ellen White said-- that "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

On the basis of the above paragraph, as well as many things the Bibles says, what you ask about other humans is not relevant to the question. God is not a man, and man has no right to do what God has every righ to do. As Ellen White says, "God has unlimited control over the works of His hands." See 4 SG 50

Quote:

pnattmbtc:.... What I'm asking is why you don't reject that idea that God will torture people because of knowing Him and knowing His character. Why don't you reject this idea on this basis, as you would for your father/son/brother? (assuming you would do so).

My answer:

Because what people do and what God does are two different things. God is not a creature but is the Creator, Lawgiver, and Judge of the universe.

The following paragraph bears repeating in this connection: "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

On the basis of the above paragraph, as well as many things the Bibles says, what you ask about other humans is not relevant to the question. God is not a man, and man has no right to do what God has every right to do "in strict justice." As Ellen White says, "God has unlimited control over the works of His hands." See 4 SG 50

Please be sure to read all of 4 SG 50-53.

Let me know if you would like me to clarify anything here. I'll be glad to do it. :-)

[Archie777]

and even better and more meaningful, most of the world will accept satans appearing as if He were Christ!! guess that makes them right?

most will make and enforce the sunday law against sabbath keepers, since majority "wins" twould appear we are on the wrong side.... oh dear...

Good point. In matters of faith and salvation the minority are usually right. However, sometimes the majority are right. For example, the majority of SDAs believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. They also believe the seventh-day is the Sabbath. They also believe in soul sleep. So, what makes a particular belief right? I suspect we'd all agree the testimony of Jesus is what makes it right. It's not a numbers game.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): ... most of the world will accept satans appearing as if He were Christ!! guess that makes them right?

most will make and enforce the sunday law against sabbath keepers, since majority "wins" twould appear we are on the wrong side....

Nothing sacred about the majority. No one is saying the majority is necessarily right. Truth isn't determined by majority vote. But then it isn't determined by a minority vote, either.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

R: Okay....The Bible is too complex for me to say I'm 100% certain. But I am certain of God's agape love.

A: I appreciate the honest confession. I hope you don't fault me for being 100% certain about God's role in the punishment and destruction of the wicked at the end of time. Also, thank you for leaving out personal comments in this post.

Robert isn't 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die during final judgment. I am 100% certain He will. Are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die?

100% of what? He said, "I'm not 100% certian that Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die"?

[John317]

Quote:

John317: It doesn't sound like it's saying we should select what we like and reject the rest. That is what people do with the Bible. Ellen White had some harsh words for people who do what you do with her writings and what you suggest others do.

Quote:

i wish others could see they are the ones guilty of what they are accusing others of, but conviction comes of God....

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. The original post was written to Robert, who tells us regarding Ellen White's writings that he accepts "the good" and "throws out" the bad. He encourages others to do the same. Thereore I am not making an accussation; I'm talking about something that the person not only admits to but says others ought to do as well.

But Ellen White said people should not treat her writings in this way. It's the same way that many people treat the Bible. We shouldn't pick and choose what to accept and what to throw out. I don't believe that I pick and choose what to accept and what to reject of her writings. I believe all of it, just as I do the Bible. All of it must be taken into account, and there is no subject where this is more important to practice than in the present topic of discussion.

If you believe that I am doing this, please copy and paste where you think I've done it, and please also give the post# and the title of the thread.

[pnattmbtc]

I think it's possible for God to burn people up in literal fire and destroy them-- and to cause them to be punished according to the deeds done in the body-- because, first, the Bible says He will do it, and secondly, because I believe it is right for him to do it.

[Twilight]

I can honestly say: That fire that God has told us about, has absolutely nothing to do with why I choose to serve the LORD. I have not been coerced into being a Christian.

Also I never argue with what God says He will do. He knows what He's doing. Our ways are not His ways, and our thoughts are not His thoughts. To believe that we need to be able to figure His ways out, so that they all make perfect sense to us, is foolishness.

I also serve God imperfectly because of His love for me.

Not because of fear of fire...

Mark

[Twilight]

I'm just pointing out what is plainly stated in scripture. That is what you're disagreeing with. Are you sure you want to take that path?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Are you sure that does not say:

Fire appeared to come down from God from heaven, but it was really a new super weapon that satan and fallen mankind released on themselves accidently, and devoured them.

???

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Archie777

Pnattmbtc, no doubt you know I'm Mountain Man from the Maritime forum. It's good to see you hear. Thank you for catching me up. You're right, I didn't read the entire thread. It's a bit long. By the way, I'm using the name Archie because it's the name our son is considering using if they have a baby boy in May.

Would you mind telling me what the letters mean in your name? Pnat is an amusing abbreviation. However, I suspect each letter stands for something and together it means something important and meaningful.

As you know, I'm pretty familiar with the "withdraw and permit" principle of death and destruction. You have labored long and lovingly to help me understand it. And I thank you.

For the sake of others here I agree there are times when circumstances forced Jesus (the principal player and power in the OT and in the NT) to withdraw His protection and permit evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction within His established and enforced limits. He leaves nothing to chance or Satan. Examples include Babylon and Rome conquering Jerusalem.

I also believe Jesus has commanded holy men and holy angels to cause death and destruction. Examples include the sabbath-breaker Moses stoned to death and the first-born of Egypt.

I also believe Jesus has employed the forces of nature to cause death and destruction. Examples include the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

And, I believe the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness during the final judgment. Literal fire from above and below will also play a part in the suffering and death of the wicked.

OK,Archie. That's three of us.

Add another...

[Guest]

Have you counted me yet?

[Robert]

Quote:

R: Okay....The Bible is too complex for me to say I'm 100% certain. But I am certain of God's agape love.

A: I appreciate the honest confession. I hope you don't fault me for being 100% certain about God's role in the punishment and destruction of the wicked at the end of time. Also, thank you for leaving out personal comments in this post.

Robert isn't 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die during final judgment. I am 100% certain He will. Are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die?

100% of what? He said, "I'm not 100% certian that Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die"?

I am not 100% certain on if God kills or not because both sides have good points....I just don't think that it is cut and dry. I am not 100% certain because I am fallible. You folks that say you are 100% certain might take heed of the following:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

You guys might be wrong; it would do some good for ya'll to take a more humble position. I mean you guys aren't infallible, right?

[Twilight]

[ But what troubles me is that I hear some Seventh-day Adventists saying that God must NOT directly destroy the wicked, and if He does, He has the character of the devil.

That kind of thinking is dangerous and is setting people up to rebel against God and reject His ways of dealing with sin.

Amen.

They are leaving themselves no room for error (except Robert who admits he may not be correct).

If they are wrong, they have passed judgement on God's character.

Yet they are so determined on this point, that does not seem to occurr to them.

And I firmly believe it has been clearly shown they are wrong.

Mark

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

[ But what troubles me is that I hear some Seventh-day Adventists saying that God must NOT directly destroy the wicked, and if He does, He has the character of the devil.

That kind of thinking is dangerous and is setting people up to rebel against God and reject His ways of dealing with sin.

Amen.

They are leaving themselves no room for error (except Robert who admits he may not be correct).

If they are wrong, they have passed judgement on God's character.

Yet they are so determined on this point, that does not seem to occurr to them.

And I firmly believe it has been clearly shown they are wrong.

Mark

I believe you're right Mark.

[Robert]

Quote:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Remember we are dealing with symbolism. Look at the context...what's real and not real?

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Okay, it says fire came down out of heaven and destroyed them. Then in the next verse apparently "the fire" didn't destroy the devil and some others because someone throws him in "the lake of burning sulfur" were the "beast" and "false prophet" are....They are also tormented forever and ever.....

13..., and death and Hades [hell] gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Hmmm? Death and hell were thrown into hell....Folks, why do SDA (and others) always jump to Revelation? Answer: It's easy to make it say what you want....