"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Archie777]

Skyblue, yes, I believe God will send the strong delusions mentioned in 2 Thes.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Sky

When the Bible says of God, "I will destroy thee . . . He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest . . . He hath utterly destroyed them" do you think it has in mind the scenario you spelled out above? That is, do you think it symbolizes God permitting evil men to wipe out the evil angels?

Your answer above makes it sound like, yes, you believe those passages symbolize evil men wiping out evil angels. Have I understood your view correctly? If so, thank you for the concise answer.

There is nothing "symbolic" about wicked men, the most violent of the nations for that matter, as the Bible speaks of them, turning upon Satan with the fury of demons, as the SoP tells us in G.C.672.

Doesn't it say that the most violent of the nations will turn upon Satan with the fury of demons and that they will bring him down to the Pit? It does, doesn't it? That Pit is the lake of fire. That fire will not come directly out from the Lord upon them any more than fiery serpents or strong delusions are sent directly from the Lord. That fire will be triggered by powerful weapons during the ensuing battle between the most violent of the nations and Satan and his evil angels.

Was not Mrs. White shown that before they march against the City, they will be implementing weapons of mass destructions? and why is it so difficult to believe that these very weapons will fire back at Satan and his angels?

sky

[skyblue888]

Skyblue, yes, I believe God will send the strong delusions mentioned in 2 Thes.

Are you then rejecting the light from G.C.431?

sky

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN317: God doesn't (say) "accept my Son or I will torture you." He does, however, say that if people don't accept the Son, they will die a horrible death. Some verses in the Bible do say that those who are lost will suffer in fire. John 3: 16 says that the only way to escape death is through accepting Christ. I guess some people would call that coercion of the will. I have a non-Christian friend who certainly sees it that way, and he is not referring to the idea of burning for days in the gehenna of fire, but simply to the idea that one will die if he doesn't accept Christ.

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pnattmbtc: Your friend is right if the horrible death they experience is imposed upon them by God. However, if the death comes as a result of sin, and God is simply warning them of the effects of sin, similar of warning of the effects of smoking, that's another story.

My friend is in rebellion against God. He's never submitted to God's will. He doesn't agree with God's moral laws at all, except the one that says you shouldn't murder. That's about the only one people should obey.

He definitely doesn't believe God has a right to destroy the wicked or make them suffer punishment for their sins. He thinks God was terrible for commanding Israel to destroy the people of ancient Palestine.

So he would completely disagree with Ellen White's statement that God has unlimited control over the works of His hands and that it is His right to do as He pleases, and with what He pleases with the work of His hands. He wouldn't believe, either, that man has no right to ask God, "Why doest thou thus?" (4 SG 50) He would say that man has every right to ask God what He is doing.

I think that's the basic problem here. People think that they have a right to tell God how He should punish the wicked, instead of simply studying the Bible and the SOP to find out what God has said He will do. Instead of doing that, many invent all kinds of scenarios that fit their wishes, whereas we should all be fitting our wishes to conform to God's word and revelation.

[skyblue888]

Is it true that when God withdraws His protection that the forces of nature act on their own and cause devastation and death? Or, do the forces of nature rely on God to act as they do? For example, did the Flood act on its own when God withdrew His protection? Did fire act on its own to destroy S&G? Or, did God employ the forces of nature as weapons to punish and destroy sinners?

Ellen White observed:

God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will. . . {MH 416.1}

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. . . {MH 416.2}

It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops. {MH 416.3}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. {PP 109.1}

Yes these quotes you have cited teach that God by His Spirit is everywhere present, that He moves in all things according to His will, that the Spirit of God is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all, and yes, according to His will.

But when the Spirit is removed from nature it is then out of control and it is in that sense that it is said that God destroys because His Spirit is no longer exercising His restraining power. Not because God chooses to leave but that He is forced to leave. This is what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the antediluvians and to the city of Jerusalem. See G.C.28,35,36.

sky

*nature out of control means that it is Satan now who is in charge and he uses nature to wreck havoc. See G.C.517,589,590

[skyblue888]

When one reads that "the understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan," (1 S.M.355) should not the one question immediately come to mind? How is Satan misrepresenting the character of God?

What is the lie (misrepresentation) of Satan regarding the character of God? Is it that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown?

Is it to teach that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the disobedient but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection?

Or is it to teach that God does directly destroy those who do not appreciate His work or act contrary to His ideas?

Which is it?

sky

I'm still waiting for your answers to these questions.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: But not from here on. They won't have the Holy Spirit in the sense that the righteous have the Holy Spirit, of course, but who will be communicating the truth to the wicked? The Holy Spirit, of course. We're told that the lost will be made aware of every sin they've committed, of every point where they rejected Christ, and turned from the right path. Who does this work? The Holy Spirit. Who else could it be?

Quote:

JOHN3:17: :Sure, the Holy Spirit communicates the truth to them. But if criminals have a hardened conscience and don't have the Holy Spriit convicting them of sin, it doesn't matter if you pointed out their sin. They might be made aware of their sins, but if the Holy Spirit isn't there to make them sorrowful for sin, a man in the flesh won't feel true sorrow for what he's done. You could take a cold blooded murderer and show him pictures of his victims all day long, and he might even laugh and brag about it. Merely showing him his sins isn't going to make him die or make him feel like he wants to die.

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pnattmbtc: There's a tendency in discussing this subject to dehumanize the wicked, as if they were people totally unlike us, people we don't know.

I'm not doing that, whether you think so or not.

Quote:

But they're not. The lost will be comprised of many people we know; people we work with, our family members, people we go to church with, even we ourselves if we don't surrender to the Lord.

Yes, very true. I'm not saying anything different from that.

Quote:

I think thinking in terms of people we know may help here. Think of someone you know well that you fear may be lost. What is this person like? What will happen to him at the judgment?

I am thinking of people I know. I'm thinking of how I was only a few years ago, and of how I would be right now if it wasn't due to God's answering people's prayers. I am thinking of the gang members I worked with for 21 years, and the people at Patton State Hospital where I used to work. I'm thinking of my friends, all of whom are non-Christians. I'm thinking of the men I served in the army with. I'm thinking of the bums I used to ride freight cars with. I'm thinking of the people I often meet and photograph on skid row in downtown Los Angeles. I'm thinking of people I knew in jail. I seldom associate with Christians, except for my direct family and the people I see at church.

[skyblue888]

"The power and malice of Satan and his host might justly alarm us were it not that we may find shelter and deliverance in the superior power of our Redeemer. We carefully secure our houses with bolts and locks to protect our property and our lives from evil men; but we seldom think of the evil angels who are constantly seeking access to us, and against whose attacks we have, in our own strength, no method of defense. If permitted, they can distract our minds, disorder and torment our bodies, destroy our possessions and our lives. Their only delight is in misery and destruction. Fearful is the condition of those who resist the divine claims and yield to Satan's temptations, until God gives them up to the control of evil spirits. But those who follow Christ are ever safe under His watchcare. Angels that excel in strength are sent from heaven to protect them. The wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people." G.C.517.

[Archie777]

A: Skyblue, yes, I believe God will send the strong delusions mentioned in 2 Thes.

S: Are you then rejecting the light from G.C.431?

No. I believe "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3} In this case I suspect God will use evil angels to persuade them to believe the lie I named above. It could be something like the "lying spirit" in 2 Chronicles 18:19-22. No doubt they will work through means of spiritualism.

[skyblue888]

"Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5.

And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils. The class that have provoked the displeasure of Heaven will charge all their troubles upon those whose obedience to God's commandments is a perpetual reproof to transgressors. It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of the Sunday sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people, preventing their restoration to divine favor and temporal prosperity. Thus the accusation urged of old against the servant of God will be repeated and upon grounds equally well established: "And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the Lord, and thou hast followed Baalim." 1 Kings 18:17, 18. As the wrath of the people shall be excited by false charges, they will pursue a course toward God's ambassadors very similar to that which apostate Israel pursued toward Elijah. G.C.589,590.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

A: Skyblue, yes, I believe God will send the strong delusions mentioned in 2 Thes.

S: Are you then rejecting the light from G.C.431?

No. I believe "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3} In this case I suspect God will use evil angels to persuade them to believe the lie I named above. It could be something like the "lying spirit" in 2 Chronicles 18:19-22. No doubt they will work through means of spiritualism.

By "God will use His emenies" it is meant that God will not interfere with them, not that He will directly use them any more than He directly used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. We know it was Satan who used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. God had no choice but to abandon them, to leave them to the leader they had chosen. See G.C.28.

sky

[Archie777]

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. {PP 109.1}

Nature out of control means that it is Satan now who is in charge and he uses nature to wreck havoc. See G.C.517,589,590

Yes, I have read where God gives evil angels permission to employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction within His established and enforced limits. In such cases do you think God totally ceases regulating nature and leaves it to evil angels to manage and manipulate as they see fit? Or, do you think they are limited by the established and enforced will of God?

Also, would you say the following insights should be interpreted to mean God permitted evil angels to cause the death and destruction described in the Bible and in the SOP?

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt: Surely it's not the case that you think Ellen White's words mean what they obviously say. What is the case is that you perceive them to mean something different than I do.

J:Here is the passage in Ellen White's writings that I had in mind when I said that it's obvious what it means:

It really doesn't make any difference what the passage is, as far as my comment is concerned. For *any* passage where I could say, "John evidently doesn't think Ellen White's words mean what they obviously say," it would be the case that it actually do think the words mean what they say, but you think the mean something different than I do.

[Archie777]

By "God will use His emenies" it is meant that God will not interfere with them, not that He will directly use them any more than He directly used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. We know it was Satan who used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem. God had no choice but to abandon them, to leave them to the leader they had chosen. See G.C.28.

Thank you for sharing how you view things. Please understand I'm not here to find fault with your view of things. I am merely seeking to understand what you believe. Again, thank you for sharing. You are very good at explaining your view. I appreciate that about you.

[Twilight]

At the divine command of Christ [to withdraw], he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to enable him to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word to instantly desist and to leave the world's Redeemer."

This is another positive proof that your so-called "universal principle" against God's using compelling force is not universal at all but that God has before used compelling force against Satan.

This is a very good point.

Mark

[Guest]

The Bible also says that God killed Saul or that He hardened Pharaoh's heart but we know that God did not directly kill Saul or directly harden Pharaoh's heart

So from this we are to glean that in every other place in the Bible, and the SOP where God says He will do something, that it never really means what it says?

I don't know exactly why those appearant contradictions are there in the Bible, but I do know that someone sure is getting a lot of mileage out of them.

And I also believe that there is a perfectly good explanation for them being there, other than causing us to disbelieve everything God says He will do.

[Archie777]

When one reads that "the understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan," (1 S.M.355) should not the one question immediately come to mind? How is Satan misrepresenting the character of God?

What is the lie (misrepresentation) of Satan regarding the character of God? Is it that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown?

Is it to teach that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the disobedient but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection?

Or is it to teach that God does directly destroy those who do not appreciate His work or act contrary to His ideas?

Which is it?

I'll venture to address your questions. As I understand it Satan has labored to lead created beings into believing God is selfish and that His law is His way of preventing free moral agents from excelling as gods. He would also have them believe God is cruel and dictatorial looking for excuses to maim, murder, and otherwise torture those who refuse to comply with His unjust demands.

Will God directly punish and destroy resurrected sinners and evil angels in final judgment? Yes. I believe this is what it means when Inspiration says the wicked will reap what they have sown.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN317: :Why does the Bible use the imagery of fire and the burning up of the wicked? Is it in order that people will come along and say that the prophecies all pointing to this are wrong?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: This must be a sarcastic question(?). Or I'm not understanding it. Anyway, no, that's not the reason. The reason is to communicate spiritual truth to us.

I asked the question because it seems to me that this is what happens: God tells prophets and apostles that He will punish and destroy the wicked in fire, and then some people come along afterwards and teach or preach that God won't punish anyone in fire but that the fire is a symbol of suffering from a guilty conscience to the point where they die from it. Or else they teach that the wicked won't suffer punishment in fire but will destroy each other with human weapons, etc.

This isn't sarcasm. You may interpret something that way, but I certainly don't mean it to be understood like that. I'm writing openly, sincerely and honestly.

You say that the reason for the biblical imagery of fire and burning up the wicked is for the purpose of communcating spiritual truth to us. Yes, and what is that spiritual truth?It is also literal truth. To say it is not literal is based on as much authority as saying that God did not make the Sabbath in Eden or that it is not a memorial of God's Creation of the earth. Those things are not left up to us to interpret away, which is what I believe happens when we study the Bible with people on this topic and tell them that the fire is not real. When I study these things with people, I leave it just as the Bible gives it. I let Peter and Paul and Jesus and the apostle John do the preaching. I give very few of my own comments or interpretation. I simply ask a question and then allow the Bible to give the answer or explanation. My opinions in a Bible study are nothing-- the words of Scripture are everything.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Sky

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. {PP 109.1}

Nature out of control means that it is Satan now who is in charge and he uses nature to wreck havoc. See G.C.517,589,590

Yes, I have read where God gives evil angels permission to employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction within His established and enforced limits. In such cases do you think God totally ceases regulating nature and leaves it to evil angels to manage and manipulate as they see fit? Or, do you think they are limited by the established and enforced will of God?

Also, would you say the following insights should be interpreted to mean God permitted evil angels to cause the death and destruction described in the Bible and in the SOP?

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

Again, brother, when it says that God will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons, that does not mean that He will do this directly, for His judgments, we are told, do not come directly out from Him but that the wicked have placed themselves beyond His protection. If Satan is responsible for all the earthquakes that have ever struck the earth, as we are told in G.C.589,590, and if he is responsible for all the calamities that have befallen the earth ever since the fall of Adam in Eden, we may be sure that when the most violent of the nations shall turn upon him with the fury of demons, that to protect himself he will not hesitate in the least to trigger many earthquakes or whatever he can to stay alive as long as he possibly can and it is these earthquakes that will cause fires from beneath to erupt to the surface to meet the fire from above, from volcanoes, which will be erupting all over the earth.

And they will all be consumed. God will not lift one finger against them all and yet God portrays Himself as being the One who will have destroyed them all by fire. The language of the Bible is consistent from cover to cover and Mrs. White uses that language too but explains that language in other statements just as the Bible does explain itself, a little here and a little there. See Isaiah 28:13.

sky

[Twilight]

Quote:

What's the title of the book?

It's from "See With New Eyes," Chapter 8, Destiny Consciousness.

Quote:

I would not reject what Ty says here, but at the same time, I see no reason that these things could not take place just before the wicked see that their case is hopeless and they then attempt to destroy Satan. Of course they cannot destroy Satan, and that is when fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them. That humans can't destroy Satan is proved by the fact that Satan is still living and suffering on many days later, after all the other wicked have perished.

If what Ty wrote is true, then, by the time the wicked are attempting to destroy Satan, they will already have suffered in proportion to their sin, because, in Ty's view, the suffering the wicked experience is inherent in their sin. His point is that it's not something external, imposed as a non-organic consequence, but it is an organic consequence. This is a point he makes several times in the book. I can provide more quotes where he speaks to this, if desired.

Quote:

Could you give either EGW statements or Bible verses to support the above ideas, in Ty's quote? What Bible or SOP evidence shows a clear connection between what he says and the final destruction of the wicked?

Ty provides the Scripture references himself in what he writes. He doesn't cite Ellen White explicitly, but you can see often see what EGW quote he has in mind by the way he phrases things. For example, "The revelation of God’s perfect righteousness and love will destroy the wicked" is a paraphrase of "The glory of Him who is love will destroy the wicked" (DA 764).

GC 541-542 is the SOP passage that most directly seems to me to speak to the subject Ty discusses here, in terms of the reaction of the wicked. In terms of Scripture, Revelation 20 is what he's discussing.

I do not think you should use Ty Gibson as some type of authority Pnat.

You should argue your own position, not someone elses.

Mark :-)

[Archie777]

S: The Bible also says that God killed Saul or that He hardened Pharaoh's heart but we know that God did not directly kill Saul or directly harden Pharaoh's heart

R: So from this we are to glean that in every other place in the Bible, and the SOP where God says He will do something, that it never really means what it says?

I don't know exactly why those appearant contradictions are there in the Bible, but I do know that someone sure is getting a lot of mileage out of them.

And I also believe that there is a perfectly good explanation for them being there, other than causing us to disbelieve everything God says He will do.

It makes sense to me to believe God uses "His enemies as instruments to punish" (LDE 242.3) and that it is the same as though He did it Himself. If someone uses fiery serpents to kill people it is the same as though they did the killing themselves.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

When one reads that "the understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan," (1 S.M.355) should not the one question immediately come to mind? How is Satan misrepresenting the character of God?

What is the lie (misrepresentation) of Satan regarding the character of God? Is it that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown?

Is it to teach that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the disobedient but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection?

Or is it to teach that God does directly destroy those who do not appreciate His work or act contrary to His ideas?

Which is it?

I'll venture to address your questions. As I understand it Satan has labored to lead created beings into believing God is selfish and that His law is His way of preventing free moral agents from excelling as gods. He would also have them believe God is cruel and dictatorial looking for excuses to maim, murder, and otherwise torture those who refuse to comply with His unjust demands.

Will God directly punish and destroy resurrected sinners and evil angels in final judgment? Yes. I believe this is what it means when Inspiration says the wicked will reap what they have sown.

Yes God will "punish" but not according to our ways of punishing. In the case of Jerusalem for example, the Jews were left to reap that which they had sown. Inspiration explains what that means. "Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." G.C.28.

As far as I can see, you have only given us what you think these expressions mean instead of letting inspiration speak. Right?

sky

[Twilight]

Quote:

Has God ever used compelling power against him? Look at 1 SM 288. Speaking of the temptations of Christ by Satan, Ellen White writes, "At the divine command of Christ [to withdraw], he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to enable him to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word to instantly desist and to leave the world's Redeemer."

Pnatt and Sky.

Please answer the question.

According to this quote, Satan was compelled to obey Christ.

Do you agree that the word "compelled" has been used in the above quote and do you agree the above quote is "inspired"?

Mark

[Archie777]

As far as I can see, you have only given us what you think these expressions mean instead of letting inspiration speak. Right?

No.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

S: The Bible also says that God killed Saul or that He hardened Pharaoh's heart but we know that God did not directly kill Saul or directly harden Pharaoh's heart

R: So from this we are to glean that in every other place in the Bible, and the SOP where God says He will do something, that it never really means what it says?

I don't know exactly why those appearant contradictions are there in the Bible, but I do know that someone sure is getting a lot of mileage out of them.

And I also believe that there is a perfectly good explanation for them being there, other than causing us to disbelieve everything God says He will do.

It makes sense to me to believe God uses "His enemies as instruments to punish" (LDE 242.3) and that it is the same as though He did it Himself. If someone uses fiery serpents to kill people it is the same as though they did the killing themselves.

When God is forced to withdraw His protection and death occurs, it cannot be said that He is doing the killing Himself eventhough the language of the Bible makes it appear that way. When He allowed the fiery serpents to bite the Israelites it is because they had forfeited God's protection, not fully, but partially. His restraining power was in a measure removed from them and that is why the fiery serpents had access to them. But those who believed in the remedy, who looked upon the serpent of brass, a symbol of Christ, without doubting, were instantly healed. They were taught of the necessity of faith in the merits of a Saviour to come.

sky