"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Archie777]

A: Also, do you believe 1) revisiting their sins and 2) the revelation of God's character during final judgment will result in the wicked (humans and angels) suffering and dying according to their sinfulness?

P: Please read what I posted from Ty.

Please don't do this. Please don't ask me to read what Ty wrote and then extrapolate your answer to my question. As you know, it never ends well. It is more expedient for you to simply answer my question. Please respect my wishes. Thank you.

[pnattmbtc]

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Actually, I'm sure literal fire will play a part. What I'm not sure about is if Jesus will "set them on fire". There are several examples in the OT of sinners being burned alive. You believe it happened when Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to do it. How does this make Jesus less culpable?

We've discussed this. I answered this at length just a few posts ago. The short answer is that God is caused to remove His protection.

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Elsewhere you've suggested nature itself would burn people alive if Jesus ceased restraining it.

I doubt this. Can you quote something please? I've said that holy angels protect us from a thousand dangers, all of them unseen. Could it be this is what you have in mind?

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But is nature truly self-acting?

This is just misrepresentation. Please don't do this.

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Isn't it true, though, that Jesus had to work to prevent natural disasters even before sin entered the picture?

This is an interesting question. First of all, what's the point of the question? That is, why are you asking it? Suppose one were to answer the question, "Yes, this is true" What would your point be?

To answer your question, I think the answer is no, Christ didn't have to work to prevent natural disasters. I think the causes of natural disasters arose from sin.

For example, let's pick one. Hurricanes. Before sin came into the picture, was it necessary for Jesus to act to prevent them from occurring? No, because the conditions necessary for hurricanes to form didn't exist, and couldn't exist, as there weren't any oceans, to name just one thing.

Did you have some natural disaster in mind? You could suggest it, and we could consider it.

[skyblue888]

When one reads that "the understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan," (1 S.M.355) should not the one question immediately come to mind? How is Satan misrepresenting the character of God?

What is the lie (misrepresentation) of Satan regarding the character of God? Is it that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown?

Is it to teach that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the disobedient but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection?

Or is it to teach that God does directly destroy those who do not appreciate His work or act contrary to His ideas?

Which is it?

sky

[Archie777]

Does God cause diseases?

Did God give Moses leprosy?

Exodus 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.

And Miriam?

Numbers 12:9, 10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

A: Also, do you believe 1) revisiting their sins and 2) the revelation of God's character during final judgment will result in the wicked (humans and angels) suffering and dying according to their sinfulness?

P: Please read what I posted from Ty.

A:Please don't do this. Please don't ask me to read what Ty wrote and then extrapolate your answer to my question. As you know, it never ends well. It is more expedient for you to simply answer my question.

I don't think so.

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Please respect my wishes. Thank you.

I'll compromise. Here's a small portion from what Ty wrote, so you don't have to read the whole thing:

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The second death brings the soul face-to-face with the full, ugly reality of one’s sin, untempered by any sense of divine mercy. Sin, once committed, is an existing reality in the mind. It is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering. Forgiveness is possible only by means of embracing God’s merciful love. Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin.

The weight of sin’s terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul. ...That condemnation will eventually, ultimately impose an unbearable shame upon those whose minds refuse to see the healing reality of God’s pardoning love. A conscious sense of God’s love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing it from destroying the soul.

Especially to the point is:

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Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin.

Suffering is inherent to sin, because sin is based on the principle of selfishness. Selfishness, "me first", can only lead to misery, suffering, and death.

[John317]

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Archie777: Also, do you believe 1) revisiting their sins and 2) the revelation of God's character during final judgment will result in the wicked (humans and angels) suffering and dying according to their sinfulness?

I know you didn't direct this question to me, but I'd like to examine it anyway if I may.

My question is, why do human beings suffer mentally and psychologically for their sins now, at the present time?

It seems obvious to me that we suffer pangs of conscience not because we are naturally good but ONLY because of the convictions and the work of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we would all love sinning and every sort of evil imaginable.

Now the wicked at the end of time will not have the Holy Spirit. That seems pretty obvious. They will actually have demons influencing them. They will be filled with hatred and every concievable kind of lust and hatred.

Why then would they be so filled with remorse and self-loathing that they would die from those feelings and thoughts?

The answer is that nowhere in Scripture or the Spirit of prophecy are we given evidence that the wicked die of a broken heart over their sins or over the loss of eternal life. If we analyze the events as they occur, we find that the wicked spend very little time in remorse or in confessing that God is right. They're primarily consumed with hatred for God and with a desire to destroy holy city. But then when they see that can't be successful, and they realize that all is lost, they turn against Satan and his wicked angels. According to Ellen White, it's while they are attempting to attack Satan that the fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. However, the "devouring" takes some time. She says some perish as in a moment, while others suffer "many days." Satan is the last to die, but "he is still to live and suffer on." In the same paragraph, Mrs. White says Satan "is MADE to suffer."

How can anyone reconcile these clear statements with the idea that these things won't happen?

I would ask anyone who believes God will not destroy the wicked in fire to please restudy the following (if they have not recently read them):

5 BC 1122; 3 SG 83-87; 7 BC 946; GC 671-673; EW 294-295; GC 664-666; 3 BC 1142; EW 51-54; EW 221 (SR 391); 7 BC 986; ML 355.

[Archie777]

"God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Jesus took the sins of all mankind. He was made sin...made a curse. We see infinite justice in the death of Christ. He took "the curse of the law", which is clearly God abandonment. God handed him over....He gave Him up. God never touched Christ...nor did He get evil men to do His biding. Why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement? Keep in mind the God doesn't practice partiality. So God isn't going to go easy on Christ and hard on the sinner.

Do you agree with the point Ellen White made above? Do you agree she doesn't here draw conclusions regarding Jesus' death on the cross? Do you agree God drowned the antediluvians? Do you agree God rained down fire on S&G?

[Stan]

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with – even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

[doug yowell]

So what exactly are you trying to say, pnatt? Do you reject the idea of God actively executing the final death sentence on the wicked,period,(even if God's fire would result in instantaneous,"merciful", annihilation rather than extended sentences)? Or is it the concept of torture that you are rejecting?

[pnattmbtc]

My question is, why do human beings suffer mentally and psychologically for their sins now, at the present time?

It seems obvious to me that we suffer pangs of conscience not because we are naturally good but ONLY because of the convictions and the work of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we would all love sinning and love every sort of evil imaginible. Lots of people don't think so, but it's true. If you put any man, who's living in the flesh, in certain situations, you would be amazed at what he will do.

[pnattmbtc]

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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with – even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

Amen!!!

[pnattmbtc]

So what exactly are you trying to say, pnatt? Do you reject the idea of God actively executing the final death sentence on the wicked,period,(even if God's fire would result in instantaneous,"merciful", annihilation rather than extended sentences)? Or is it the concept of torture that you are rejecting?

If one had the idea that God actively executed the final death sentence on the wicked, but did so in a way that didn't involve setting them on fire and torturing them, that would be far more palatable, and I would have far much less of an issue with this than the other idea. Actually, I could say this myself, that God executes the final death sentence on the wicked. He does so by revealing the truth to them. That's one way of expressing things.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's the aspect of God's setting people on fire to torture them that's especially objectionable.

[Archie777]

Pnat, is the idea that the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die less objectionable?

[John317]

I honestly don't know what the problem is with what I said above. My words are not intended as pot-shots, and I don't see how they can be considered as "pejorative/confrontational."

I practice the Golden Rule-- the law of Christ-- according to which I say nothing that I wouldn't want someone to say to me. And what I've said above is not anything I would feel is wrong or objectionable if said to me.

There's also nothing wrong with putting this kind of statement on a post directed to someone else. It was, after all, directed to someone who takes the same basic position that you and sky take. My statement is simply a way of inviting all three of you to comment or explain your view in light of Ellen White's quote.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, you really don't understand the problem with saying

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Evidently, though, pnatt and sky think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

You say you're practicing the golden rule? You want me to post things like:

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Evidently, though, John317 and (whoever) think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc: God executes the final death sentence on the wicked. He does so by revealing the truth to them.

Yes, God does reveal the truth to them about Himself and about themselves. But we can see from what they do immediately afterwards that the wicked aren't changed by it, nor do they die because of that revelation. The record is that they acknowledge that God is right and that His judgment is just-- but then almost immediately they turn back to doing their evil deeds again. They are attempting to attack Satan at the time God brings down fire from heaven on them, and it consumes them.

But the point is that nowhere in Scripture or the Spirit of prophecy are we given evidence that the wicked die at the end of the one thousand years of a broken heart over their sins or over the loss of eternal life. If we analyze the events as they occur, we find that the wicked spend very little time in remorse or in confessing that God is right. They're primarily consumed with hatred for God and with a desire to destroy holy city. But then when they see that can't be successful, and they realize that all is lost, they turn against Satan and his wicked angels. According to Ellen White, it's while they are attempting to attack Satan that the fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. However, the "devouring" takes some time. She says some perish as in a moment, while others suffer "many days." Satan is the last to die, but "he is still to live and suffer on." In the same paragraph, Mrs. White says Satan "is MADE to suffer."

If you believe I'm in fundamental error on these points, please show me by quoting and giving the references.

Specifically, where do you find valid, persuasive evidence that the wicked die from sorrow over their sins?

And how or why would such a death be so closely associated in Scripture and the SOP with fire and flames and burning?

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pnattmbtc: Anyway, to answer your question, it's the aspect of God's setting people on fire to torture them that's especially objectionable.

Why does the Bible use the imagery of fire and and the burning up of the wicked? Is it in order that people will come along and say that the prophecies all pointing to this are wrong?

[pnattmbtc]

Pnat, is the idea that the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die less objectionable?

Than the idea that God will breathe fire on them, setting them on fire to suffer torture for hours or days? Yes, less objectionable.

[doug yowell]

John317, you really don't understand the problem with saying

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Evidently, though, pnatt and sky think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

You say you're practicing the golden rule? You want me to post things like:

Quote:

Evidently, though, John317 and (whoever) think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

I honestly can't imagine John, or anyone else who engages in a respectable debate, having a problem with you saying those types of things. In case you haven't been paying attention to Robert's posts I think that John's words have been in a different league. But I haven't noticed John making an issue of it.

[pnattmbtc]

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pnattmbtc: God executes the final death sentence on the wicked. He does so by revealing the truth to them.

J:Yes, God does reveal the truth to them about Himself and about themselves. But we can see from what they do immediately afterwards that the wicked aren't changed by it, nor do they die because of that revelation. The record is that they acknowledge that God is right and that His judgment is just-- but then almost immediately they turn back to doing their evil deeds again. They are attempting to attack Satan at the time God brings down fire from heaven on them, and it consumes them.

But the point is that nowhere in Scripture or the Spirit of prophecy are we given evidence that the wicked die at the end of the one thousand years of a broken heart over their sins or over the loss of eternal life.

Why are you making this point?

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If we analyze the events as they occur, we find that the wicked spend very little time in remorse or in confessing that God is right.

You said this. I responded to this.

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They're primarily consumed with hatred for God and with a desire to destroy holy city. But then when they see that can't be successful, and they realize that all is lost, they turn against Satan and his wicked angels. According to Ellen White, it's while they are attempting to attack Satan that the fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. However, the "devouring" takes some time. She says some perish as in a moment, while others suffer "many days." Satan is the last to die, but "he is still to live and suffer on." In the same paragraph, Mrs. White says Satan "is MADE to suffer."

If you believe I'm in fundamental error on these points, please show me by quoting and giving the references.

I've done so. The idea that God will set people on fire to cause them to suffer torture disagrees with:

1.Everything Jesus Christ ever revealed about God.

2.DA 764

3.GC 535-536

4.GC 541-543

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Specifically, where do you find valid, persuasive evidence that the wicked die from sorrow over their sins?

Why are you asking this? I don't understand these questions that come out of the blue. Why don't you quote something so I have some context or reference to what's prompting the question?

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And how or why would such a death be so closely associated in Scripture and the SOP with fire and flames and burning?

Did you read what I posted from Ty some time ago regarding fire? That goes into the question. I can repost it for your convenience.

The short answer is that if God is to communicate to us about things with which we aren't familiar, he has to do so using ideas with with we are familiar. So that's what He does.

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pnattmbtc: Anyway, to answer your question, it's the aspect of God's setting people on fire to torture them that's especially objectionable.

J:Why does the Bible use the imagery of fire and and the burning up of the wicked? Is it in order that people will come along and say that the prophecies all pointing to this are wrong?

This must be a sarcastic question(?). Or I'm not understanding it. Anyway, no, that's not the reason. The reason is to communicate spiritual truth to us.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's the post on fire:

When Moses reminded Israel of when God gave them His holy law, he said of the Lord, „He shined ... from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people” (Deuteronomy 33:2, 3). “And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel” (Exodus 24:17). “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire” (Deuteronomy 4:24). Paul made the same kind of parallel between God and fire: “Our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29).

We are not to conclude from such texts that God is composed in nature of literal fire. But rather, as Moses said, his glory is “like devouring fire . . . in the eyes” of human beings. God’s law is fiery; His glory is like a devouring fire; and His love is like an unquenchable fire. In what sense? In that the righteousness of God’s character of love stands in distinct contrast to our sinful selfishness.

The use of the words consuming and devouring indicate the reality that God’s righteous love not only exposes sin, it destroys it like darkness vanishes before the greater power of light. God’s love is wholly incompatible with sin. Whenever the two meet in close proximity, the lesser is consumed by the greater. With unrelenting passion, love devours all that is sinful an selfish. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire by virtue of who and what He is in character.

It is for this very reason that God has hidden Himself behind the subduing veil that is Christ. In Jesus we see the sunlight, as it were, without looking directly into the sun; we see the attractive beauty of God’s character in bearable splendor, without having to face the full brilliance of divine glory before we can survive it. As we come to know God in Christ, the heat of His glorious love slowly turned up to consume away our sin with merciful, healing gentleness. As we see Him more and more clearly, we see ourselves in ugly contrast with progressive clarity as well. With each sensitizing revelation we have the opportunity to dive deeper into the flame, to be “washed . . . by the spirit [the mental process[ of judgment [discernment] and by the spirit of burning” (Isaiah 4:4, NKJV). “The path of the just is like the shining sun, shat shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18, NKJV).” “’For He is like a refiner’s fire and like launderer’s soap’” (Malachi 3:2, NKJV).

Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJV). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.

The love of which Solomon speaks—strong as death, relentless as the grave, and as unquenchable as the fire of God’s glory—was manifested in Christ. At Gethsemane and Calvary we behold God’s love put to the severest test and emerging from the fire victorious over the law of sin and death. In a word, the sufferings of Jesus consisted of a raw encounter with reality. He entered into the uncharted realm of total truth, both about God and about fallen mankind. He experienced perfect consciousness of God’s holy love in contrast to our sinful selfishness.

In His mind and heart He faced, with painful acuity, the full reality of human wickedness being consumed by the holiness of God. When the two realities reached their zenith point in His consciousness, they clashed for the mastery, and God’s love was victorious. He chose to resist “the law of sin and death” and to keep tight hold of the principle of selfless love. Sinful humanity died in the death of Christ and an entirely new humanity emerged triumphant over sin an drenched in the blood of relentless love.

[John317]

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John317: My question is, why do human beings suffer mentally and psychologically for their sins now, at the present time?

Now the wicked at the end of time will not have the Holy Spirit.

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pnattmbtc: But not from here on. They won't have the Holy Spirit in the sense that the righteous have the Holy Spirit, of course, but who will be communicating the truth to the wicked? The Holy Spirit, of course. We're told that the lost will be made aware of every sin they've committed, of every point where they rejected Christ, and turned from the right path. Who does this work? The Holy Spirit. Who else could it be?

Sure, the Holy Spirit communicates the truth to them. But if criminals have a hardened conscience and don't have the Holy Spriit convicting them of sin, it doesn't matter if you pointed out their sin. They might be made aware of their sins, but if the Holy Spirit isn't there to make them sorrowful for sin, a man in the flesh won't feel true sorrow for what he's done. You could take a cold blooded murderer and show him pictures of his victims all day long, and he might even laugh and brag about it. Merely showing him his sins isn't going to make him die or make him feel like he wants to die.

So the question is what will make all those billions and billions of wicked people any different than they are now when shown their sins? Will the Holy Spirit perform a miracle in order to make them feel sorry for what they've done? Will they be truly, deeply repentant? Or do they merely feel sad that they can't go on living?

Is sorrow over not living going to result in the death of the wicked? What is the evidence for this concept?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Evidently, though, John317 and (whoever) think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

d:I honestly can't imagine John, or anyone else who engages in a respectable debate, having a problem with you saying those types of things.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, please respond to post #344466.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting Ty Gibson):

The second death brings the soul face-to-face with the full, ugly reality of one's sin, untempered by any sense of divine mercy. Sin, once committed, is an existing reality in the mind. It is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering. Forgiveness is possible only by means of embracing God;s merciful love. Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin.

The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul. ...That condemnation will eventually, ultimately impose an unbearable shame upon those whose minds refuse to see the healing reality of God's pardoning love. A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing it from destroying the soul.

What's the title of the book?

I would not reject what Ty says here, but at the same time, I see no reason that these things could not take place just before the wicked see that their case is hopeless and they then attempt to destroy Satan. Of course they cannot destroy Satan, and that is when fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them. That humans can't destroy Satan is proved by the fact that Satan is still living and suffering on many days later, after all the other wicked have perished.

Could you give either EGW statements or Bible verses to support the above ideas, in Ty's quote?

What Bible or SOP evidence shows a clear connection between what he says and the final destruction of the wicked?

[John317]

John317, please respond to post #344466.

Sure, I'll be glad to, but I would also appreciate it if you would respond directly to the following:

1) Do you beleive that God has ever compelled Satan to obey Him? Has God ever used compelling power against him? Look at 1 SM 288. Speaking of the temptations of Christ by Satan, Ellen White writes, "At the divine command of Christ [to withdraw], he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to enable him to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word to instantly desist and to leave the world's Redeemer."

This is another positive proof that your so-called "universal principle" against God's using compelling force is not universal at all but that God has before used compelling force against Satan.

2) Concerning the wicked who are raised from their graves at the end of the 1000 years, Ellen White has written, "THEN THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SECURED THE PARDON OF THEIR SINS MUST RECEIVE THE PENALTY OF TRANSGRESSION. THEY SUFFER PUNISHMENT VARYING IN DURATION AND INTENSITY ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, BUT FINALLY ENDING IN THE SECOND DEATH. COVERED WITH INFAMY, THEY SINK INTO HOPELESS, ETERNAL OBLIVION." 4 SP 364.

Compare the above with the statements by Mrs. White that Christ metes out to the wicked the portion they must suffer. She makes many statements showing that both the length and the intensity they suffer is "decided" by Christ and the saints in heaven during the 1000 years. The decision is even written in a book against the names of the wicked. See EW 51-53, 290-291.

Could you tell us in your own words what the above quote in paragraph #2 from Ellen White says, particularly the part in bold letters?