"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Yes, I believe God can do it, has done it before, and will do it again. See the following texts: Lev. 10: 1,2; Num. 16: 35; and Rev. 20: 9.

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pnattmbtc: Your belief is that God will set people on fire to cause them to suffer torture for a specific period of time which is determined by those who have been resurrected in the first resurrection, right? This isn't anything that you believe has happened before, so you're what you're saying here isn't right.

You're right that it's never been exactly the same thing, because obviously no mere human being has ever died the second death after being condemned to die eternally for his sins. But we do know that God has destroyd people by fire before. That is certainly related to the final destruction of the wicked. We should not be surprised that no one has suffered for their deeds as they will after the Great White Throne Judgment, since that event itself has never occurred before. So, yes, of course, there will be things about that event which will be unique-- fortunately. And fortunately too, it will never occur again. What God does and how He will have handled the problem of sin will secure the entire universe against rebellion and sin for all time to come.

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Let's consider the difference. In the cases cited in the OT where God destroyed people by fire, God isn't taking supernatural action to prevent the people from dying before they suffered a specific amount of time. The dynamics are very different in the second resurrection. In the OT the fire comes and kills them. There's no action on God's part to supernaturally keep them alive, or preventing their never endings from being damaged, so they can suffer torture.

Very true.

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pnattmbtc: You keep mixing in other events that are unrelated to the question I'm raising.

I do not know about you, friend, but it seems clear to me that God's destruction of sinners in fire in the past is related somewhat to His ability and willingness to destroy them by fire in the future. The fact that the destruction by fire in the past was not an exact parallel to the fire in the future is really beside the point. No one should expect those events to be exactly the same, since, as pointed out before, the final destruction of the wicked in the second death is unique in the history of the universe. For that reason it is referred to as God's strange act.

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pnattmbtc: What I've been taking issue with is specifically the idea that God sets people on fire like a torch to suffer excruciating pain for hours or days at a time. If God simply destroyed them with fire like what you think happened in the OT, that wouldn't be such a bad thing, as they would die mercifully quickly. It's the idea that God keeps them alive so the can suffer torture that's particularly objectionable.

This is not my idea. I didn't originate it. It's found in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy. If you need me to post a long list of the verses and quotes on the topic, I'll be happy to do it. For now, please study the following, and I would encourage you to try to think of principles:

Is. 1: 28, 31; 66: 24; Mal. 4: 1-3; Rev. 20: 5-10; Luke 12: 46-48; Rev. 22: 12; 21: 8, 27; 14: 9-11; 2 Thess. 1: 5-9; 2: 8-10; Zeph. 1: 12-18; Matt. 13: 42; 25: 46; 2 Peter 2: 6; 3: 7; Jude 7.

EW 51-53; 290-293; GC 660-661; 2 T 293-294; GC 544-545; 4 SP 364.

Please read carefully all of the above references as well as the following paragraph: .

Concerning the wicked who are raised from their graves at the end of the 1000 years, Ellen White has written, "THEN THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SECURED THE PARDON OF THEIR SINS MUST RECEIVE THE PENALTY OF TRANSGRESSION. THEY SUFFER PUNISHMENT VARYING IN DURATION AND INTENSITY ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, BUT FINALLY ENDING IN THE SECOND DEATH. COVERED WITH INFAMY, THEY SINK INTO HOPELESS, ETERNAL OBLIVION." 4 SP 364.

Could you tell us in your own words what the above paragraph says, particularly the part in bold letters?

[pnattmbtc]

What God does to the wicked at the end-- after Satan's wickedness has been revealed, and after all the universe argrees that he and the rest of the wicked deserve to be punished with everlasting destruction-- does not compel anyone to accept Him any more than warning people of future punishment against sin compells them to accept Him.

[Robert]

no mere human being has ever died the second death after being condemned to die eternally for his sins.

As EGW states, "Deity did not sink and die, humanity died". That humanity was ours. Through Christ we can see how the 2nd death takes place: God abandonment. Just like God didn't actively participate in the death of Christ, as the son of man, He will likewise not actively participate in the destruction of unbelievers.

[Robert]

"THEY SUFFER PUNISHMENT VARYING IN DURATION AND INTENSITY ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS

Baloney! Jesus took the sin of the whole human race, yet He suffered less than a day.

What is it with you John, do you think I just fell off a turnip truck? Where's the justice in the individual sinner who suffers many days for his own sins, but Christ, who had the weight of the sins of every man, woman and child that was ever born into this fallen world, suffered less than a day. Where's the justice? Answer: It's unjust!

[Huh, I disagree with you]

Rob

[Robert]

You know what? I don't think any of us have changed our minds. But as long as folks keep posting, I'll do the same. Anyone want to say uncle?

Rob

[John317]

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John317: This is another positive proof that your so-called "universal principle" against God's using compelling force is not universal at all....

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Robert: Dream on....

Show how the above conclusion I stated is in error, based on the following statement by the messanger of the Lord to the remnant church:

Do you beleive that God has ever compelled Satan to obey Him? Has God ever used compelling power against him?

Look at 1 SM 288.

Speaking of the temptations of Christ by Satan, Ellen White writes, "At the divine command of Christ [to withdraw], he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to enable him to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word to instantly desist and to leave the world's Redeemer."

[Robert]

Look at 1 SM 288.

Naughty, naughty.... teehe

[Robert]

Ready to say uncle?

[skyblue888]

:)

[John317]

Quote:

John317 (quoting Mrs. White): THEY [the wicked at the end of the one thousand years] SUFFER PUNISHMENT VARYING IN DURATION AND INTENSITY ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 4 SP 364

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ROBERT: Baloney! Jesus took the sin of the whole human race, yet He suffered less than a day.

What is it with you John, do you think I just fell off a turnip truck? Where's the justice in the individual sinner who suffers many days for his own sins, but Christ, who had the weight of the sins of every man, woman and child that was ever born into this fallen world, suffered less than a day. Where's the justice? Answer: It's unjust!

Did you read the rest of the references, as in EW 51-53? They are plain, aren't they?

You, however, evidently think that her comments are contrary to the Bible. I'd like to know if Jack Sequeira thinks Ellen White taught things that are false in those statements. I doubt it. But I would like to know what he thinks.

OK, you don't accept what Ellen White said there. And why not? Do her words contradict the Scripture? If so, what Scriptures? Jesus Himself says that the wicked will endure varying degrees of punishment for their sins.

Well, OK, at least you understand the meaning of the words that Ellen White wrote there. Evidently, though, pnatt and sky think her words don't mean what they obviously say. I look forward to seeing their thoughts on what Ellen White wrote in those lines.

By the way, there is indeed an answer to your question, "where's the justice?" but a person will only understand it if they are willing to submit themselves to God's will (no matter what it is) and admit that God has unlimited control to do what He chooses to do with the works of His hands.

God is agape/love, yes, but we must be willing to allow God to define what that agape/love means and let Him decide how to punish the wicked. Criminals don't have the right or the power to dictate to the Judge and Governor how He shall punish the offenders. (See Mrs. White comment on this very point, in 12 MR 207-209). As long as we think we have a right to tell God what He can and cannot do, we will have a problem submitting to God's will.

[John317]

Here's a very interesting quote:

During the time of Christ's agony on the cross, the unfallen angels were amazed that Christ did not kill those who were scoffing at Him.

Of course they did not fully understand the issues involved, but the question comes to mind why they would consider it that way if they had never witnessed God destroying the wicked before during all the thousands of years of their existence? If they understood that Christ had never used any kind of force against Satan and the rest of the wicked, and if they knew that Christ never would destroy the wicked, why would they be so amazed that Christ didn't "seal with death the lips of the scoffers"?

Compare this with what the angel of God told Balaam in Numbers 22: 23. He said he would have killed Balaam if the donkey hadn't turned aside. Was that the truth or was it an empty threat that the angel knew he couldn't have done? Is it likely that this angel was one of the angels who were amazed that Christ didn't kill the scoffers.

Any ideas?

The EGW quote is from YI June 14, 1900 and is also quoted in The Truth About Angels, p. 202:

"At any moment He could have saved Himself, and come down from the cross; but had He done this, the world would have been given over to the control of the great apostate. IT WAS A MARVEL TO THE ANGELS THAT CHRIST DID NOT SEAL WITH DEATH THE LIPS OF THE SCOFFERS."

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc: Your belief is that God will set people on fire to cause them to suffer torture for a specific period of time which is determined by those who have been resurrected in the first resurrection, right? This isn't anything that you believe has happened before, so you're what you're saying here isn't right.

J:You're right that it's never been exactly the same thing, because obviously no mere human being has ever died the second death after being condemned to die eternally for his sins. But we do know that God has destroyd people by fire before.

[pnattmbtc]

(from Ty Gibson; emphasis original)

Revelation 20 brings to view three dimensions of the second death.

1.Consciousness of God’s Righteousness and Love. The second death is initiated by a full revelation of God Almighty, seated upon “a great white throne” with His “face” fully exposed to the astonished gaze of all. Paul calls this event “the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God” (Romans 2:5). Wrath occurs in the light of “revelation.” The revelation proceeds from God and takes on the form of self-realization in those who behold it.

It is inevitable that every created being encounter his Maker. In this sense, the ultimate destiny of each person, both believers and unbelievers, is exactly the same. We are all bound for a full, unveiled encounter with God. All will stand before His throne and see His face. All will not, however, see the same dimension of reality in that face. The divine countenance will be the same toward all, but all will not behold the same things as they look upon it. All will not think the same thoughts and feel the same feelings as they meet the undimmed reality of God’s character.

Those who have trusted in Jesus as the true image of God will see infinite love and mercy in the face of God. They will sense the accepting embrace of His unalterable love. But the wicked, both of heaven and earth, fallen angels as well as men, will be compelled from within their sin-damaged souls to flee away from such a God as this. They will fell within themselves an irrepressible impulse to run an hide, not because of the diving face flashes with hostility, but because it shines brilliant with a love they cannot bear. It is unbearable form their own twisted perspective, not unbearable due to any change of character on God’s part.

Unbearable because they have rejected that beckoning love over and over again.

Unbearable because the infinite contrast between God’s changeless love and their own selfishness is more than they can tolerate.

Unbearable because they have formed within themselves a character so contrary, thoughts and feelings so opposite, that the love of their Creator appears as condemnation to them.

They cannot see Him any other way. Their sin-darkened hearts are forever blinded to the beauty of the divine character. Psychologically and emotionally they are left with only the capacity for condemnation. Everything in them is urgent to flee away from the One who was so good to them while they hated Him. The guilty conscience cannot endure the presence of the One who gave His life for them while they lived for themselves. Eternal love itself, by its very nature, is utter condemnation to sin and selfishness. It is by contrast, not by sameness, that God’s righteousness is destructive to sin.

While God does not condemn the sinner, His righteousness and love does condemn sin. Those who ultimately identify themselves with sin so intimately that they cannot separate from it will perish in its condemnation. God will not destroy unrepentant sinners by assuming toward them an unrighteous attitude contrary to love, but rather by maintaining the glorious integrity of His love without wavering. The revelation of God’s perfect righteousness and love will destroy the wicked.

2.Consciousness of Separation: “The was found no place for them” (Revelation 20:11). These are some of the most horrifying words in all human language. The second death is total aloneness, a deep inner sense of complete unbelonging. The wicked, standing before God’s throne and gazing upon His countenance, realize with intense vividness that they are so out of harmony with the universe that there is absolutely “no place for them.”

They don’t fit into a universe governed by the absolute rule of selfless love. They cannot exist among or interact with a society of beings who live wholly for others. They can’t even comprehend such a society. The beautiful ebb and flow of give-and-receive-with-no-intent-to-get is beyond their ability to appreciate or engage in. Sin has hollowed their hearts of the capacity for love. Rebellion has stripped away the gentle emotional impulses of the soul. Selfishness has eradicated their sensitive humanity….

3.Consciousness of Sin “Books were opened… and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books” (Revelation 20;12, NKJV).

The second death brings the soul face-to-face with the full, ugly reality of one’s sin, untempered by any sense of divine mercy. Sin, once committed, is an existing reality in the mind. It is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering. Forgiveness is possible only by means of embracing God’s merciful love. Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin.

The weight of sin’s terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul. All human beings are sinners. Therefore, all are under condemnation. That condemnation will eventually, ultimately impose an unbearable shame upon those whose minds refuse to see the healing reality of God’s pardoning love. A conscious sense of God’s love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing it from destroying the soul.

In order to grasp what the Bible means when it says, “the books were opened…and the dead were judged,” try to imagine the unimaginable. Try to imagine what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you’ve ever committed—every wrong thought and feeling and action; perfect awareness, all at once, with every ugly detail staring at your inner soul with no way of escape. Then add to that horrendous picture an absolute absence of mercy—no concept of forgiveness; no sense of acceptance; no picture of a God who freely and eagerly pardons all sin.

What would that moment in time be like for you? I know what it would be like for me. There are no words adequate to describe the mind-shattering ordeal. Such is the nature of that death which is the full wages paid by sin. The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us form sin’s full effect. He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 20 pictures the wicked gathered around God’s throne. They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have ever committed….The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin. The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.

[phkrause]

Here's a very interesting quote:

During the time of Christ's agony on the cross, the unfallen angels were amazed that Christ did not kill those who were scoffing at Him.

Of couse they did not fully understand the issues involved, but the question comes to mind why they would consider it that way if they had never witnessed God destroying the wicked before. If they understood that Christ had never used any kind of force against Satan and the rest of the wicked, and if they knew that Christ never would destroy the wicked, why would they be so amazed that Christ didn't "seal with death the lips of the scoffers"?

Any ideas?

The EGW quote is from YI June 14, 1900 and is also quoted in The Truth About Angels, p. 202:

"At any moment He could have saved Himself, and come down from the cross; but had He done this, the world would have been given over to the control of the great apostate. IT WAS A MARVEL TO THE ANGELS THAT CHRIST DID NOT SEAL WITH DEATH THE LIPS OF THE SCOFFERS."

I had heard this before, not sure where. Could have read it or heard this in a sermon.

pk

[Dr. Rich]

good question PK.

[pnattmbtc]

Evidently, though, pnatt and sky think her words don't mean what they obviously say.

This is another example of the pejorative/confrontational comment I was referring to. This isn't even a post directed to sky or myself. These sorts of pot-shots are unbecoming.

DA 759 says that compelling power is found only under Satan's government. You understand this to mean compelling power is NOT found only under Satan's government, except in two circumstances, which is to coerce the will or win the Great Controversy. I've pointed out that these two exceptions don't apply, given your ideas regarding things (such as the final judgment) so what you're suggesting is pretty much diametrically opposed to what's she's saying. So I, by using your style of writing, should write, "Evidently John317 think her words don't mean what they obviously say."

But I don't write things like this (except as a response to your writing, to hopefully open your eyes to how unbecoming this is). Why? Because obviously this isn't how you see things. It's enough to make arguments, and present evidence to support those arguments.

[Archie777]

R: Okay....The Bible is too complex for me to say I'm 100% certain. But I am certain of God's agape love.

A: I appreciate the honest confession. I hope you don't fault me for being 100% certain about God's role in the punishment and destruction of the wicked at the end of time. Also, thank you for leaving out personal comments in this post.

Robert isn't 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die during final judgment. I am 100% certain He will. Are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die?

P: 100% of what? He said, "I'm not 100% certain that Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die"?

Yes, that's what he meant. Are you surprised? If so, perhaps it would be best if you asked him to clarify.

By the way, are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die? That is, are you 100% certain He will withdraw His protection and permit them to suffer and die?

Also, do you believe 1) revisiting their sins and 2) the revelation of God's character during final judgment will result in the wicked (humans and angels) suffering and dying according to their sinfulness?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

During the time of Christ's agony on the cross, the unfallen angels were amazed that Christ did not kill those who were scoffing at Him.

Of couse they did not fully understand the issues involved, but the question comes to mind why they would consider it that way if they had never witnessed God destroying the wicked before. If they understood that Christ had never used any kind of force against Satan and the rest of the wicked, and if they knew that Christ never would destroy the wicked, why would they be so amazed that Christ didn't "seal with death the lips of the scoffers"?

Any ideas?

Sure. There are two suggestions which have been made in regards to how God destroys. One is that God removes His protection, and the other is that God takes direct action to kill. There are many quotes which discuss how the good angels protect against many things, a thousand dangers, all of them unseen. If they remove their protection, then those whom they are protecting die. This is one possibility.

The other possibility is that the angels themselves have killed.

Now obviously they know what they've done. If the first view is right, then their amazement that Christ didn't kill them means they were amazed Christ did not command them to release their protection, as they had done many times in the past.

If the second view is right, then their amazement that Christ didn't kill them was because He didn't command them to kill them along the lines you are thinking.

So this whole thing just begs the question of how God destroys. Does He do so by removing His protection, or by taking direct action too?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

R: Okay....The Bible is too complex for me to say I'm 100% certain. But I am certain of God's agape love.

A: I appreciate the honest confession. I hope you don't fault me for being 100% certain about God's role in the punishment and destruction of the wicked at the end of time. Also, thank you for leaving out personal comments in this post.

Robert isn't 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die during final judgment. I am 100% certain He will. Are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die?

P: 100% of what? He said, "I'm not 100% certain that Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die"?

Yes, that's what he meant. Are you surprised? If so, perhaps it would be best if you asked him to clarify.

I'm surprised you wouldn't quote what he said. You still didn't quote enough to know what the context was.

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By the way, are you 100% certain Jesus will not directly cause the wicked to die?

By setting them on fire like a fire breathing dragon, causing them to suffer torture for days? If this is what you mean, yes.

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That is, are you 100% certain He will withdraw His protection and permit them to suffer and die?

Have I said this?

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Also, do you believe 1) revisiting their sins and 2) the revelation of God's character during final judgment will result in the wicked (humans and angels) suffering and dying according to their sinfulness?

Please read what I posted from Ty.

[Archie777]

A: I believe the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness during the final judgment. Literal fire from above and below will also play a part in the suffering and death of the wicked.

P: Just FYI, for all of you guys that are agreeing with this, Archie (assuming he hasn't changed his mind) does not believe that God will set people on fire to burn them. Also, John was saying that it's fire that God breathes on the wicked that sets them on fire, not that the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence causes them to suffer and die. You're not really agreeing here.

Actually, I'm sure literal fire will play a part. What I'm not sure about is if Jesus will "set them on fire". There are several examples in the OT of sinners being burned alive. You believe it happened when Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to do it. How does this make Jesus less culpable?

Elsewhere you've suggested nature itself would burn people alive if Jesus ceased restraining it. But is nature truly self-acting? Isn't it true, though, that Jesus had to work to prevent natural disasters even before sin entered the picture?

[Archie777]

Pnat, here's what Robert wrote about it:

I am not 100% certain on if God kills or not because both sides have good points....I just don't think that it is cut and dry. I am not 100% certain because I am fallible.

What do you think? Does it sound like to you he is certain God does not kill?

[Guest]

This is another example of the pejorative/confrontational comment I was referring to. This isn't even a post directed to sky or myself. These sorts of pot-shots are unbecoming.

[pnattmbtc]

I am not 100% certain on if God kills or not because both sides have good points....I just don't think that it is cut and dry. I am not 100% certain because I am fallible.

What do you think? Does it sound like to you he is certain God does not kill?

[pnattmbtc]

This is another example of the pejorative/confrontational comment I was referring to. This isn't even a post directed to sky or myself. These sorts of pot-shots are unbecoming.

I didn't see where he said anything that wasn't true.

[Guest]

Ok