"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

The wicked will turn upon Satan after the 1,000 years but they will also, in the confusion, turn on each other. So this battle will last for several days and fire will erupt from below and from above to devoure them all. But that fire will not get the better of them at the start of that battle. And that fire will not come directly out from the Lord any more than the fiery serpents did or strong delusions do.

I haven't seen any explanation which I think accounts for everything. The weakness I see in this explanation is that of the proportional suffering. What Ty wrote makes sense to me. The suffering of the wicked is caused by the revelation of their sin. The more sin, the more suffering; that makes perfect sense.

Assuming there was a battle the way you're suggesting, how would you account for the proportional suffering? Also, it seems to me that the wicked would have already had to have incurred proportional suffering. So why more suffering? I think by the time the judgment is over (at the judgment seat of Christ), the wicked have already suffered all the suffering that is the consequence of their sin.

I'm familiar with the explanation you're been speaking of, but there are parts of it which don't make sense to me. However, while we may disagree on this point, we both agree on the general principles involved, which is that the suffering and death of the wicked is not something arbitrarily (i.e. artificially, not connect to sin or a consequence of sin) imposed upon the wicked by God, but is the result of their own choices, their own sin. I view this as the important thing to emphasize.

As I said, I haven't seen any explanation which accounts for everything.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Who's nature is working overtime? How is John asking you about Serequel any different from you asking him ... about Ellen White?

1] This is between me and John.

2] I don't ask him about EGW

Not true. I've seen you ask both me and him about EGW.

[Robert]

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.”[Gal 3:10]

What is the curse of the law? Well, what does Paul state?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse ; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident ; [why?] for, "THE JUST SHALL, BY FAITH, LIVE." 12 However, the Law is not of faith ; on the contrary, "HE WHO DOES THEM SHALL, BY THEM, LIVE."

If you have Christ there's no condemnation. If you are under law what does it require? You must "ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW"...or, stated in another way, "HE WHO DOES THEM SHALL, BY THEM, LIVE."

Since, as far as the law is concerned, there is none righteous - not even one, if it weren't for Christ all would receive the curse of the law. The question is does God do the cursing or do these things happen because "Our God is not among us?"

To understand the curse of the law we need to go to Deut 28:15

15 "But it shall come about, if you do not obey [as in "obey and live"] the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17 "Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 "Cursed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock. 19 "Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. 20 "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. 21 "The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it. 22 "The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. 23 "The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron. 24 "The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust ; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 "The LORD shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies ; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 "Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 "The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors and with the scab and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 "The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart ; 29 and you will grope at noon, as the blind man gropes in darkness, and you will not prosper in your ways ; but you shall only be oppressed and robbed continually , with none to save you. 30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; you shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not use its fruit. 31 "Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will not eat of it; your donkey shall be torn away from you, and will not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you will have none to save you. 32 "Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and yearn for them continually ; but there will be nothing you can do. 33 "A people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually . 34 "You shall be driven mad by the sight of what you see. 35 "The LORD will strike you on the knees and legs with sore boils, from which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36 "The LORD will bring you and your king, whom you set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 "You shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people where the LORD drives you. 38 "You shall bring out much seed to the field but you will gather in little, for the locust will consume it. 39 "You shall plant and cultivate vineyards, but you will neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm will devour them. 40 "You shall have olive trees throughout your territory but you will not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives will drop off. 41 "You shall have sons and daughters but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity. 42 "The cricket shall possess all your trees and the produce of your ground. 43 "The alien who is among you shall rise above you higher and higher, but you will go down lower and lower. 44 "He shall lend to you, but you will not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you will be the tail. 45 "So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 "They shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever . 47 "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things ; 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things ; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 "The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young. 51 "Moreover, it shall eat the offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish. 52 "It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you. 54 "The man who is refined and very delicate among you shall be hostile toward his brother and toward the wife he cherishes and toward the rest of his children who remain, 55 so that he will not give even one of them any of the flesh of his children which he will eat, since he has nothing else left, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you in all your towns. 56 "The refined and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and refinement, shall be hostile toward the husband she cherishes and toward her son and daughter, 57 and toward her afterbirth which issues from between her legs and toward her children whom she bears ; for she will eat them secretly for lack of anything else, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you in your towns. 58 "If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God, 59 then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses. 60 "He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you. 61 "Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed. 62 "Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 "It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. 64 "Moreover, the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth ; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 "Among those nations you shall find no rest, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot ; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul. 66 "So your life shall hang in doubt before you; and you will be in dread night and day, and shall have no assurance of your life. 67 "In the morning you shall say, 'Would that it were evening !' And at evening you shall say, 'Would that it were morning !' because of the dread of your heart which you dread, and for the sight of your eyes which you will see. 68 "The LORD will bring you back to Egypt in ships, by the way about which I spoke to you, 'You will never see it again !' And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves , but there will be no buyer."

Is God doing these things, or are these things a result of God abandoning those who live under law because of their failure to live up to the OC?

[Robert]

Not true. I've seen you ask both me and him about EGW.

What have I ask you about EGW?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Not true. I've seen you ask both me and him about EGW.

What have I ask you about EGW?

Well just off the top of my head, I remember one time you asked me if she was my pope.

[John317]

Quote:

JHON3:17: At 2: 00 AM, Pacific Time: I just came back online after we had a power outage that lasted several hours. I'm going to bed and will back Tuesday morning to complete this post.

Quote:

doug yowell: Earthquake related?

No earthquake here, although the day before, there was a minor one (4. 4) in Los Angeles, a little over an hour away. I'm not sure about the reason we lost power; the electricity co. said only that they had to repair a transformer.

[pnattmbtc]

Another statement regarding compelling power, speaking of the same events as the DA 759 quote.

Quote:

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

It's interesting to note that God was careful not to set a precedent for the exercise of force. So this goes to show Ellen White's mindset in writing that compelling power is found only under Satan's government. It clearly wasn't a limiting statement, as if she wanted to say that compelling power was a principle of God's government in general, but not in this specific case. Rather she is stating it in the context of explaining that God didn't want to set a precedent for the use of use force, because His principles are not of this order, and He didn't want to give the slightest encouragement for any human being to use compelling power.

She also speaks of compelling power in terms of causing physical and mental suffering to human beings, and states that this principle is "wholly of Satan's creation," which is what I've been saying. Satan invented the use of compelling power. Before Satan created it, it did not exist. It is his creation, and a principle of his government. It has nothing to do with how God does things, or the government of God, or anything to do with God at all.

We could hardly conclude from reading this that God would Himself work to cause the suffering of human beings (for example, by setting them on fire to burn for days) using a principle which is "wholly of Satan's creation."

[Robert]

Well just off the top of my head, I remember one time you asked me if she was my pope.

That's a statement...a rhetorical question. What John is doing is trying to pit me against Jack. He must think Jack is my pope.

Anyway, Jack's specialty is the Pauline Epistles. So if I am following anyone that would be Paul. He is the NT theologian. Over 53% of the NT is written by him. Jesus especially picked him to explain in detail the gospel of Christ.

[Robert]

Is God doing these things, or are these things a result of God abandoning those who live under law because of their failure to live up to the OC?

Well guys, explain Deut 28:15-68!

[pnattmbtc]

Anyway, Jack's specialty is the Pauline Epistles. So if I am following anyone that would be Paul. He is the NT theologian. Over 53% of the NT is written by him. Jesus especially picked him to explain in detail the gospel of Christ.

In my Bible, Paul (including Hebrews) accounts for 108 pages, out of 369 total for the NT, which comes to just under 30%. I don't know how you could get 53%.

Luke accounts for 100 pages, which is just under Paul, and John for about 70% of that, so Paul couldn't account for 53%.

Actually, I see what you did, you just considered the number of books. There are 27 books, of which Paul, including Hebrews, wrote 14, which is 51.8%, so this must be what you did. Expressing this as Paul writing over 53% of the NT is an odd way of putting this. It would be more normal to say that over half the books of the NT were written by Paul. Well, he was an important author; that was your point. There's no denying that.

I think Paul is widely misunderstood. His culture and the beliefs of his time are often not taken into accounts, so theories abound which would have Paul believing things that would have been impossible for him to have believed. Of SDA's discussing Paul, I can't think of anyone better than Waggoner off the top of my head.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: What is wrong with asking this question, since you often study him and quote his books as an authority?

Quote:

Robert: Your aim is to pit me against Sequeira....I've ask you to stop....Your nature is working overtime....

My aim is to understand what you believe and what Jack Sequeira believes. Why do you appear to be unwilling to tell the truth about your beliefs? Since when did asking someone about his position or belief imply an aim to pit someone against another?

[BobRyan]

311 pages??!!

Time for a new thread.

As for Paul --

Quote:

2 Thess 1

4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

As for Peter

Quote:

2 Peter 3

4 and saying, "" Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.''

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

As for John

Quote:

Rev 20

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And thesea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[

As for Matthew

Quote:

Matt 10

26 ""Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

27 "" What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As for Luke's "special focus" on this topic -

Quote:

Luke 12

4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.

5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Luke 12

45 ""But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

[BobRyan]

And of course - page 313 could not end without one last reminder that Ellen White fully agrees with the bible writers on this subject --

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

===================================

"Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutablility of His law might forever be placed beyond all question... [Read entire section]....

"In the contest between Christ and Satan, during the Savior's earthly ministry, the character of the great deceiver was unmasked....Now the guilt of Satan stood forth without excuse. He had revealed his true characeter as a liar and a murderer... Satan's lying charges against the divine character and government appeared in their true light... God had manifested His abhorrence of the principles of rebellion. All heaven saw His justice revealed.... The great controversy which had been so long in progress was then decided, and the final eradication of evil was made certain... [After the destruction of the wicked] the whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. AND ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE HIS LOVE AND ESTABLISH HIS HONOR BEFORE THE UNIVERSE of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest..." GC 501-504.

NOTE: THUS the very same act of God that so many are quick to assert God could NOT do at the start of Lucifer’s rebellion – is the exact act that is executed at the end of the rebellion.

==============================

"...God is merciful and compassionate, but He is also just. Let the cross of Calvary forever settle this matter. As surely as Christ, the guiltless, suffered for the guilty, so surely will the wrath of God fall upon the heads of those who persist in their transgression of His law." ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

NOTE: Christ did not “torment himself for all the sins of all the world”

"The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will NOW [at the time of the final destruction of the wicked] vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law." GC 504.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

The wicked will turn upon Satan after the 1,000 years but they will also, in the confusion, turn on each other. So this battle will last for several days and fire will erupt from below and from above to devoure them all. But that fire will not get the better of them at the start of that battle. And that fire will not come directly out from the Lord any more than the fiery serpents did or strong delusions do.

I haven't seen any explanation which I think accounts for everything. The weakness I see in this explanation is that of the proportional suffering. What Ty wrote makes sense to me. The suffering of the wicked is caused by the revelation of their sin. The more sin, the more suffering; that makes perfect sense.

Assuming there was a battle the way you're suggesting, how would you account for the proportional suffering? Also, it seems to me that the wicked would have already had to have incurred proportional suffering. So why more suffering? I think by the time the judgment is over (at the judgment seat of Christ), the wicked have already suffered all the suffering that is the consequence of their sin.

I'm familiar with the explanation you're been speaking of, but there are parts of it which don't make sense to me. However, while we may disagree on this point, we both agree on the general principles involved, which is that the suffering and death of the wicked is not something arbitrarily (i.e. artificially, not connect to sin or a consequence of sin) imposed upon the wicked by God, but is the result of their own choices, their own sin. I view this as the important thing to emphasize.

As I said, I haven't seen any explanation which accounts for everything.

_____________________

In order for us to understand what will take place after the 1,000 years, events taking place immediately following Satan's and everyone's acknowledgment that God's ways are righteous, it is important that we take a look at what takes place at the time of fifth and sixth plagues after the close of probation. It is in the book The Great Controversy that we find the details of this first scenario which is a microcosm of what will take place after the 1,000 years. Let us begin at the point where the wicked are about to rush upon the saints to execute the death decree upon them.

"With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. (this is the fifth plague) Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness...

The sentence I have underlined "the angry multitudes are suddenly arrested" is the drying up of support. The people finally see that they have been deceived or deluded and they will no longer support Babylon the Great. Instead they turn upon the false shepherds to execute them. This is the drying up of the River Euphrates as mentioned in Revelation 16 under the sixth plague. The "waters" of support will be dried up and this is what brings about the complete physical fall of Babylon the Great.

Then we read,

"They realize what they have forfeited by transgression, and they fall at the feet of those whose fidelity they have despised and derided, and confess that God has loved them... The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed.

"A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword." Jeremiah 25:31; The Great Controversy, pp.635,636,655,656.

Notice the language again. God will give them that are wicked to the sword. He will not interefere when the lost rush upon the false shepherds. There will be bloodshed everywhere.

It will be the same exactly after the 1,000 years except that this time the slaughter will be on a much larger scale. The lost will be in the hundreds of billions and they will rush upon Satan and his angels, the ministers of unrighteousness, with the fury of demons. Again, God will give them that are wicked to the sword. And this is the very description we find in Ezekiel 28:6-10, how it is said there that the terrible of the nations shall draw their swords against Satan and his angels and how they will defile them and bring them down to the Pit. But before they destroy themselves completely and, of course, Satan will be the last to fall, they will have suffered tremendous mental agony, the like of which Jesus felt upon the cross from the sense of eternal separation from God and that explains why the unsaved will want to make sure Satan pays for all his heinous crimes. I believe this "Pit" is the lake of fire, a fire that they themselves will have triggered with their deadly weapons and which will cause fire from beneath the earth and from above (volcanoes) to erupt and to engulf them all. And the Bible, consistenly, describes this fire as coming from God out of heaven but only in the sense that He will not exercise His power to prevent it.

sky

Just as the wicked accuse the false shepherds for their being lost eternally and turned upon them to execute them, at the time of the sixth plague, so will the unsaved of all ages accuse Satan and his angels, the false shepherds, for their being lost eternally and they will turn upon them with the fury of demons. It is interesting to notice that when Satan makes his last ditch effort to convince the lost that they are able to take the City, no one responds to his call. His power is at an end. This is the ultimate drying up of the River Euphrates. The people of all ages are now convinced that they have been deceived by him and they will bring him down to the Pit.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

We all know how Satan is often referred to as "the wicked one"

[pnattmbtc]

In order for us to understand what will take place after the 1,000 years, events taking place immediately following Satan's and everyone's acknowledgment that God's ways are righteous, it is important that we take a look at what takes place at the time of fifth and sixth plagues after the close of probation.

1.Why is this important?

2.How does this account for the proportional punishment? I.e., how is it that people would suffer in accordance to their sin? There wouldn't seem to be any relationship between how much they sinned during their life before being resurrected and how much they would suffer in the suggested scenario.

3.Wouldn't the wicked have already suffered before this point, as they were being judged? Wouldn't this suffering actually be directly related to their sinfulness? Why would additional suffering be necessary?

[Guest]

In my Bible, Paul (including Hebrews) accounts for 108 pages, out of 369 total for the NT, which comes to just under 30%. I don't know how you could get 53%.

He probably got it from Pope Jack.

[Guest]

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

But on the great day of judgement, God shall slay the evil, and the wicked with it.

Surely you will slay the wicked, O God... Psa 139:19

Eze 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: my eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, retribution to his enemies;

[pnattmbtc]

Another statement regarding compelling power, speaking of the same events as the DA 759 quote.

Quote:

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

It's interesting to note that God was careful not to set a precedent for the exercise of force. So this goes to show Ellen White's mindset in writing that compelling power is found only under Satan's government. It clearly wasn't a limiting statement, as if she wanted to say that compelling power was a principle of God's government in general, but not in this specific case. Rather she is stating it in the context of explaining that God didn't want to set a precedent for the use of use force, because His principles are not of this order, and He didn't want to give the slightest encouragement for any human being to use compelling power.

She also speaks of compelling power in terms of causing physical and mental suffering to human beings, and states that this principle is "wholly of Satan's creation," which is what I've been saying. Satan invented the use of compelling power. Before Satan created it, it did not exist. It is his creation, and a principle of his government. It has nothing to do with how God does things, or the government of God, or anything to do with God at all.

We could hardly conclude from reading this that God would Himself work to cause the suffering of human beings (for example, by setting them on fire to burn for days) using a principle which is "wholly of Satan's creation."

(repost)

[skyblue888]

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

But on the great day of judgement, God shall slay the evil, and the wicked with it.

Surely you will slay the wicked, O God... Psa 139:19

Eze 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: my eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, retribution to his enemies;

___________________________________________________________

Wow, Richard, I need to say something here. We need to understand the anger of the Lord, what His fierce anger is. I suggest you re-consider 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1

Yes the Lord will slay the wicked just as He slayed Saul. "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chron.10:14. Yet the Lord did not lift His little finger against Saul. The Lord had no choice but to leave him to himself, to reap what he had sown. Saul killed himself just as the wicked will kill each other in the end.

Richard, we need to understand the language of Heaven.

Yes, the Lord will repay and it will look like He will have no pity for the finally impenitent, as though He Himself will do the work of destruction.

sky

[John317]

Quote:

John317:Do you agree with sky's understanding that wicked humans will destroy Satan and one another?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Not completely. I think the wicked will have already suffered their proportionate punishment, along the lines that Ty laid out, so I think that's been taken care of.

You are ignoring-- or at least not taking into account-- the difference between natural and positive penalties. The Bible speaks plainly of both. The natural consequences of sin are referred to in Job 4: 8; Ps. 9: 15; 94: 23; Prov. 5: 22; 23: 21; 24: 14; 31: 3. The postive penalties for sin-- which are in no sense the natural consequences of sin-- are referred to in Ex. 32: 33; Lev. 26: 21; Numbers 15: 31; 1 Chron. 10: 13; Ps. 11: 6; 75: 10; Is. 1: 24, 28; Matt. 3: 10; 24: 51. Notice that in all those passages, punishment of sin is by a direct act of God.

If someone suffers the natural consequences of sin, it can't be said to be "punishment," for it denies "guilt," and it is exactly guilt that constitutes suffering a punishment.

As I've said before, the suffering people have as a natural consequences of their sins is not the same as the punishment against sin that will come to the wicked as a result of the Judgment and decision of Christ.

That would be like saying that justice is satisfied, and the righteous demands of the law are met, by the natural consequences of a criminal's act. But of course no one would say this. If a criminal were to tell the court that he should only have to suffer the natural consequences of his criminality, and that he shouldn't have to pay the full penalty of the law, everyone would laugh at the suggestion.

It wouldn't matter that his crimes have made it hard for him to get a job, or that his family has left him, or that he's been wounded from shoot-outs, etc. Those things do show that sin has a way of rewarding the evil-doer, but they don't take the place of the punishment and suffering he must ungergo for having violated the justice of the law.

It is the same with God's law and God's justice. The finally impentenant must suffer for having violated the law of God and rebelled against God's justice-- and that is in addition to the suffering the sinner undergoes as a natural consequences of his sins.

Ellen White speaks of Jesus and the saints in heaven "deciding" on and "meting out the portion that the wicked MUST suffer." Why MUST the wicked suffer? Why can't they simply die in their sleep, for instance?

The reason obviously can't be to reform the sinners.

Is there any reason to vindicate divine righteousness or justice?

And does the final destruction of all rebels against God also play an essential part in permenantly securing the universe from apostasy?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: If something happened like there was a huge nuclear explosion that instantely wiped everybody out, that seems possible.

What exactly does the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say which tells you it is possible for the wicked to be finally and instantly destroyed by a nuclear detonation?

Do you think it's possible that many of the wicked will die by suicide, putting themselves our of their misery in an instant by a shot to the head perhaps? Do you think Hitler could do it and thus avoid long suffering of punishment?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: I'm not saying this is what I think will happen, but that seems to me like a possibility that wouldn't contradict the things that Ty mentioned or the passages (DA 764, GC 535-535;541-542) mentioned before.

You are right that being blown up in a bomb or committing suicide would not contradict the references you give here, but such a senario would definitly contradict many other passages in both the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White. It is necessary to accept and apply ALL of Inspiration, not merely a portion of it. Specifically, your senario would contradict pages 486, 660-661, 672, 665, 666, 673 of The Great Controversy, as well as 4 T 384-385; 4 T 453; 5 T 352, 720; 7 BC 972, 986-987; 4 BC 1171; 5 BC 1085; EW 52, 53, 290-291; ; PP 357-358. The postive penalties for sin-- which are in no sense the natural consequences of sin-- are referred to in Ex. 32: 33; Lev. 26: 21; Numbers 15: 31; 1 Chron. 10: 31; Ps. 11: 6; 75: 10; Is. 1: 24, 28; Matt. 3: 10; 24: 51. In all those passages, punishment of sin is by a direct act of God.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: I don't think the wicked fighting amongst each could be responsible for the proportionate suffering.

Yes, I agree. There can be no real doubt of it.

[skyblue888]

Do you not remember the words of Psalm 2:7?

God the Father, speaking to His Son, says to Him, "I will give you the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." Psalm 2:7-9.

This is how the Scriptures present the work of destruction as though Jesus Himself will be the executioner of the sentence against the nations who did not obey Him.

If it were left to us to interpret these words, unaided, we would take these words as they read, as you do Richard, and see God and Christ in a false light. But the Holy Spirit has not left us in the dark as to the true meaning of these words:

"God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy." MS 17, 1906.

Thank God for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. He is truly the Teacher of His people. And let us not forget that we can honor God only as we have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them. See G.C.593.

sky

[Archie777]

You may be sure that Satan and his angels will suffer the full penalty of their sins and of the sins they have caused people to commit. During the thousand years they will suffer mental agony the like of which you and I cannot comprehend and that for a thousand years and at the end of that time they will have to face the fury of all the unsaved of all ages!!! In war fire is always involved. When you play with fire you always get burned. It is the same if you kill by the sword you must be killed by the sword. Sin will only follow its natural course and God will not interfere. Why is this so difficult to accept or understand? "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

Appreciate your gentleness. You didn't say if you agreed with my reply or not. I'm sure you can rephrase your last post and make it a bit clearer for me. Thank you.

My understanding of the chronology of events delineated in the GC leads me to conclude:

1. Jesus raises the wicked.

2. They are initially wowed.

3. They attempt to storm New Jerusalem.

4. Judgment interrupts their plan.

5. They revisit their sins.

6. Jesus recounts the truth.

7. They turn upon one another.

8. Jesus rains down fire.

9. They suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

10. Jesus restores paradise.

I do not believe the wicked will die before they suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. For this reason I do not believe anyone will be killed when they turn upon one another.

[Archie777]

A: By the way, why did Jesus "command" godly people like Moses to kill sinners? When the Jews inquired of God, because they were uncertain what to do in the cases of the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer, why did Jesus "command" the Jews to stone them to death? Why didn't He take advantage of the situation and command the Jews to pardon and release the sinners?

R: Better yet, why don't we stone folks today? After all, God changes not....That will answer your question.

A: Please explain how you think this observation explains why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners.

R: Moses was a sinner...He should have killed himself then....You fail to see the big picture....I've explained it before, but you couldn't comprehend it....

I don't recall you attempting to explain why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners. If you did, then I'm sorry to say I overlooked it somehow. Please redirect me to the post or posts where you address this question and I'll read and reply. I realize finding old posts can be tedious so please feel free to simply summarize your view here I will be happy to study your response and reply to it. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you. But I would very much appreciate learning what you believe about it.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

John317:Do you agree with sky's understanding that wicked humans will destroy Satan and one another?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Not completely. I think the wicked will have already suffered their proportionate punishment, along the lines that Ty laid out, so I think that's been taken care of.

J:You are ignoring-- or at least not taking into account-- the difference between natural and positive penalties.

If I were ignoring this, or not taking it into account, then I wouldn't be commenting on it. But in virtually every post I comment on this (e.g. God does not arbitrarily impose suffering, etc. -- this is what I'm talking about, what you call "positive penalties,"), so obviously I'm neither ignoring it nor not taking it into account.

Quote:

The Bible speaks plainly of both. The natural consequences of sin are referred to in Job 4: 8; Ps. 9: 15; 94: 23; Prov. 5: 22; 23: 21; 24: 14; 31: 3. The postive penalties for sin-- which are in no sense the natural consequences of sin-- are referred to in Ex. 32: 33; Lev. 26: 21; Numbers 15: 31; 1 Chron. 10: 31; Ps. 11: 6; 75: 10; Is. 1: 24, 28; Matt. 3: 10; 24: 51. Notice that in all those passages, punishment of sin is by a direct act of God.

This is what we're discussing! You're just reiterating what you already believe.

Quote:

If someone suffers the natural consequences of sin, it can't be said to be "punishment," for it denies "guilt," and it is exactly guilt that constitutes suffering a punishment.

Ok, this is new. Let's consider this. Your argument is:

1.It is guilt that constitutes suffering a punishment.

2.Therefore if someone suffers the natural consequences of sin, it can't be said to be punishment.

I'm trying to make sense of this argument, but I can't. Perhaps you could express it in another way? I'm not seeing any logical connections here, so I can't even address it.

Quote:

As I've said before, the suffering people have as a natural consequences of their sins is not the same as the punishment against sin that will come to the wicked as a result of the Judgment and decision of Christ.

You said before that the righteous decide this. They look at each person's lives, consider each sin, decide how much burning each sin is worth, add them all up, and then this is for how long the wicked should burn. So if the righteous are determining it, how is it Christ doing it? (<== Please address this)

We've been disagreeing all along whether the punishment of the wicked is something arbitrarily imposed upon them (i.e., the result of individual discretion -- which is used in determining how much burning time each particular sin should result in) versus a direct consequence of the sin itself.

Quote:

That would be like saying that justice is satisfied, and the righteous demands of the law are met, by the natural consequences of a criminal's act.

No it wouldn't. You are either ignoring or not taking into account the judgment itself. The suffering occurs as the revelation of truth is revealed to the wicked. This is what Ty is talking about, right?

Quote:

But of course no one would say this. If a criminal were to tell the court that he should only have to suffer the natural consequences of his criminality, and that he shouldn't have to pay the full penalty of the law, everyone would laugh at the suggestion.

You're presuming here that the judgment is like Western justice. You can't take a model of justice that you're familiar with and say that what will happen in the afterlife is exactly like that and make arguments from that. We need to consider the principles involved and descriptions of what happens as revealed from inspiration. Western justice might help us to understand some things, but it might get in the way of understanding things as much as it helps. Western justice <> justice as revealed in Scripture.

Quote:

It wouldn't matter that his crimes have made it hard for him to get a job, or that his family has left him, or that he's been wounded from shoot-outs, etc. Those things do show that sin has a way of rewarding the evil-doer, but they don't take the place of the punishment and suffering he must ungergo for having violated the justice of the law.

This is because there isn't a one-one correspondence between sin and the punishment that comes as a natural result of sin in our world. But there would be if God didn't intervene. God intervenes, not allowing sin to pay its wages, which is death, immediately, so people have the opportunity to make decisions on whom they want to follow and the principles of whose government they want to live by. But after the resurrection, God will cease this intervention, and the wicked will receive the full result of their choice. This is DA 764.

Quote:

It is the same with God's law and God's justice.

No, this is a big mistake. You're assuming that God's justice is like our justice, and arguing from that assumption. But this is a false assumption. In our justice punishment is and must be arbitrary, by the nature of things. But God's justice does not have this restriction.

Quote:

The finally impentenant must suffer for having violated the law of God and rebelled against God's justice-- and that is in addition to the suffering the sinner undergoes as a natural consequences of his sins.

This would happen now if God did not prevent it from happening. FW 19-21 talks about this. It is only because of the work of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, that the wicked do not suffer and die right now. After the resurrection, God ceases preventing the natural consequences of sin. Another place that speaks of this is MB, forget the page number, which says that if we had to bear the burden of our guilt, it would crush us, and that Calvary reveals the enormity of this guilt. After the resurrection, the wicked will have to bear their own guilt, and it will crush them, just as EGW wrote. Again, the only reason the wicked do not die now, as a natural consequence of their sin, is because God prevents this from happening. It's not necessary for God to impose an artificial means of producing suffering and death as sin is fully capable of doing this. It is the mercy of God that limits the destructive impact of sin.

Quote:

Ellen White speaks of Jesus and the saints in heaven "deciding" on and "meting out the portion that the wicked MUST suffer." Why MUST the wicked suffer? Why can't they simply die in their sleep, for instance?

I'm answered this many times. The main purpose of the judgment involves the Great Controversy, the evaluation and vindication of God's character and the principles of His government. All sentient beings who are capable of rendering judgment will take place in this decision. They can't do this if they're asleep.

Quote:

The reason obviously can't be to reform the sinners.

Is there any reason to vindicate divine righteousness or justice?

And does the final destruction of all rebels against God also play an essential part in permenantly securing the universe from apostasy?

By the time the wicked are destroyed, everyone else will have made their decision, but in the destruction of the wicked, just as Christ's death revealed, it will be seen that the inevitable result of sin is suffering and death.

[quotte]pnattmbtc: If something happened like there was a huge nuclear explosion that instantely wiped everybody out, that seems possible.

J:What exactly does the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say which tells you it is possible for the wicked to be finally and instantly destroyed by a nuclear detonation?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

You may be sure that Satan and his angels will suffer the full penalty of their sins and of the sins they have caused people to commit. During the thousand years they will suffer mental agony the like of which you and I cannot comprehend and that for a thousand years and at the end of that time they will have to face the fury of all the unsaved of all ages!!! In war fire is always involved. When you play with fire you always get burned. It is the same if you kill by the sword you must be killed by the sword. Sin will only follow its natural course and God will not interfere. Why is this so difficult to accept or understand? "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

Appreciate your gentleness. You didn't say if you agreed with my reply or not. I'm sure you can rephrase your last post and make it a bit clearer for me. Thank you.

My understanding of the chronology of events delineated in the GC leads me to conclude:

1. Jesus raises the wicked.

2. They are initially wowed.

3. They attempt to storm New Jerusalem.

4. Judgment interrupts their plan.

5. They revisit their sins.

6. Jesus recounts the truth.

7. They turn upon one another.

8. Jesus rains down fire.

9. They suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

10. Jesus restores paradise.

I do not believe the wicked will die before they suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. For this reason I do not believe anyone will be killed when they turn upon one another.

Jesus will not directly rain down fire upon the hapless heads of the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years anymore than He would rain fire upon a Samaritan village when He was urged to do so by His disciples. He wil not interfere in the ensuing battle. He will not exercise His power to prevent that fire from erupting from the midst of them and from below and above the earth.

He will not personally rain down fire over the walls to kill the wicked. This is what they did in ancient times. When a city was besieged and attacked on all sides the city dwellers rained fire from off the walls down upon the hapless heads of their attackers.

God is not like that.

sky

Consider this: "You thought that I was altogether like you." Psalm 50:21.