"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: Reconcile these John, I can't:

"This is what the LORD God of Israel says: Each of you put on your sword. Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, and kill your relatives, friends, and neighbors."

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven.

Discuss these verses and tell what happened.

Exodus 32: 27, 28. Was Moses wrong? Who commanded Moses to do this? Was it God or Satan or Moses' own imagination?

Joshua 6--- did Joshua and the writer misunderstand what God told Joshua to do with Jericho?

Joshua 8: 18ff-- did Joshua misunderstand what God told the Israelites to do at A-i (or Ghai)?

Joshua 10: 8-10, 40-- same question.

Compare Ex. 17: 14 and Deut. 25: 17-19.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Archie: Some people believe Jesus will, during final judgment, gradually cease supernaturally preventing resurrected sinners and evil angels from succumbing to the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning. As a result they will gradually suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

P: Can you name one person who believes this?

A: I had you in mind. I take it you disagree with this summary. If so, I am terribly sorry. I did not mean to misrepresent your view. Please explain how I got it wrong. Thank you.

P: I had in mind what Ty wrote.

I'm sorry, Pnatt, but your response doesn't help me understand how I misrepresented your view. Do you (as opposed to Ty) agree Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment?

PS - Please include this entire post when you respond. Thank you.

If you want to know what I believe, I told you you could read what I posted from Ty. That puts it clearly and eloquently. Or you can read what I've written. This thread is long enough that there are many examples to go by.

DA 764 says:

Quote:

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

You could summarize what I believe this way.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Ethical Problems

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity. [MM Campbell]

Excellent!

Yes, these are issues that need to be considered.

[pnattmbtc]

If I am near a river of lava flow and I fall in it I'll be dead in about 20 sec....The same for the wicked, unless God supernaturally keeps them alive....rejuvenates their bodies every few seconds so that they can feel it again again.

It's difficult to believe that people seriously consider this to be possible.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

No authority or measuring stick.

But she raises good points, that people actually think about. Just ignoring these points doesn't answer the questions.

[karl]

If you want to know what I believe, I told you you could read what I posted from Ty. That puts it clearly and eloquently. Or you can read what I've written. This thread is long enough that there are many examples to go by.

DA 764 says:

Quote:

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

You could summarize what I believe this way.

This is only one side of it, Pnat, and she covers the other side elsewhere.

If God wants you alive, you cannot kill yourself. If God wants you dead, you cannot stay alive. If God wants you created, He creates you. If God wants you uncreated, He uncreates you.

Our choices are to agree to cooperate and allow God to do what He wants to do or to tell Him we don't want that. If we decide we do not want the life He has already given or the eternal life He has to offer, God generally honors our choices, but it is HE Who decides when we "for sure" have made that choice. And it is He who does the act - the strange act, to Him - that terminates our existence.

We choose. He acts. He is the mover.

Our choice is the deciding factor in favor of whatever action He takes. And sometimes, for our good or the good of others, He will even overrule our choices. He is Sovereign.

We think we are the ones who do the action, but even if we jump out of a plane without a parachute, if God has determined it is not time for us to terminate, He has ways of counteracting our actions.

God is the mover.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

This is only one side of it, Pnat, and she covers the other side elsewhere.

If God wants you alive, you cannot kill yourself.

People kill themselves all the time that God would prefer stayed alive.

Quote:

If God wants you dead, you cannot stay alive.

He doesn't want us dead. He wants us alive. He gives us the choice to live or day, and asks, "Why will you die?"

Quote:

If God wants you created, He creates you.

He created Adam and Eve. The rest of us are offspring.

Quote:

If God wants you uncreated, He uncreates you.

Don't know what this means.

Quote:

Our choices are to agree to cooperate and allow God to do what He wants to do or to tell Him we don't want that. If we decide we do not want the life He has already given or the eternal life He has to offer, God generally honors our choices,

Generally? You mean sometimes God gives us eternal life, even though we've said we don't want it? How does that work? I reject Christ, but God gives me eternal life anyway? How?

Quote:

but it is HE Who decides when we "for sure" have made that choice.

We've make the choice not to have eternal life when we make the choice. God doesn't decide this. If God's decision were what determined if a person had eternal life or not, everyone would have eternal life, because that's what God wants, that all live eternally and none perish.

Quote:

And it is He who does the act - the strange act, to Him - that terminates our existence.

DA764 says that the death of the wicked is a result of their own choice. It's not God's choice, but the choice of those who reject God. She explains that death is the inevitable result of sin.

Quote:

Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.(DA 764)

God leaves Satan and his followers to reap what the full result of their sin, which is death.

Quote:

We choose. He acts. He is the mover.

He acts by leaving those who have rejected Him to reap the full result of their sin.

Quote:

Our choice is the deciding factor in favor of whatever action He takes.

Sure, if we choose eternal life, He gives us eternal life. If we choose death, He leaves us to the reap the full result of our choice. This is His wrath.

Quote:

And sometimes, for our good or the good of others, He will even overrule our choices.

Not in the context of this discussion, He doesn't. God never overrules a person's decision to have eternal life so that the person can't have it (assuming the person complies with the conditions), nor does God overrule a person's decision to reject Christ by forcing Him to have eternal life.

Quote:

He is Sovereign.

And as Sovereign, He can share that sovereignty by creating beings with free will, and allowing them to make their own choices.

Quote:

We think we are the ones who do the action, but even if we jump out of a plane without a parachute, if God has determined it is not time for us to terminate, He has ways of counteracting our actions.

I don't see what this has to do with eternal life or eternal death.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

skyblue888: Where have I ever said or made the slightest suggestion or inkling that the fire spoken of in Rev.20:9 is symbolic????!!!!

It's symbolic from your viewpoint to the extent that you don't believe it's real fire that comes (as the verse says) from God out of heaven. You believe it is real fire that comes out of the earth and from sinful mankind. It's literal fire but it's not literally from God out of heaven. In literary terms, that makes it symbolic. In literature, you might have a literal fire but it can be symbolic of another, different literal fire. For instance, small, literal fires in some stories and poems represent the larger fires of hell.

John, you can't be serious! So fire from nuclear weapons or bursting forth from beneath the earth or from erupting volcanoes is not real fire? You never cease to amaze me John, to what length you are willing to go to defend your faulty position that Jesus Christ, at His coming, or after the 1,000 years, will reveal Himself as a God who destroys His enemies by raining fire upon them.

The difference between what you teach and what I teach is simple. The fire will be real, very real, but it will NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon Satan and his followers. The Lord will not exercise His power to prevent that fire.

When the Bible says that God sends strong delusions to those who do not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved, (2 Thess.2:10,11) it is clear that this language does not mean that the Lord directly sends strong delusions to them but that having rejected the teachings of His word, He has no other choice but to withdraw His Spirit from them and to leave them to the deceptions which they love. This is the way this language is explained in G.C.431. Now are these strong delusions merely symbolic? Of course not. They are real, very real. They are the lies and misrepresentations and misinterpretations of Satan. So they are very real just as the fire that will consume the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years will be very real, make no mistake about that.

As it is about the strong delusions, so it is with the fire that is said to be coming from God out of heaven. It does not mean that that fire will come directly from God any more than the strong delusions but that His Spirit, having been removed from those who have rebelled against Him, is no longer restraining the powers of evil and the result will be that when the terrible of the nations shall turn upon Satan and His angels with the fury of demons they will fire those weapons at him and his angels. These are the weapons that they had implemented to take the City. We cannot rule out nuclear weapons or more powerful weapons even.

Your claim is that Satan and his angels are untouchable, that it will not be possible for them to be killed by the terrible of the nations though the Word of God clearly says so. I would like to present more evidence that after the 1,000 years Satan and his angels will not quite be the same. In fact they will be like us. This is what the Word of God says. We don't realize the effect of 1,000 years of mental stress and agony will have on their being as a whole. It is in Isaiah 14, the Lucifer chapter, that we find this evidence.

Here we have another representation. This time instead of Satan being referred as "the king of Tyre" he is represented as "the king of Babylon." And he certainly is.

"That you shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased. The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers; he who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he who ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted and no one hinders (after the 1,000 years when the terrible of the nations shall turn upon him with the fury of demons and there will be no one to help him) The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since you were cut down, no woodsman has come up against us. (after he is destroyed) Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the dead for you, al the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones , all the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: Have you also become as weak as us? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,,, How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, everyone in his own house. But you are cast out of your grave, like an abominable branch. Like the garment of those who are slain, thrust through with a sword, who go down to the stones of the Pit, like a corpse trodden underfoot. You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land and slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named." Isaiah 14:4-20

Make sure you read the highlighted parts very carefully.

In Ezekiel he is represented as the king of Tyre.

"The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am God, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’ Yet you are a man, and not God, Though you set your heart as the heart of God. 3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 With your wisdom and your understanding you have gained riches for yourself, and gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches, 6 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have set your heart as the heart of God, 7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor. 8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Will you still say before him who slays you, ‘I am God’? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. 10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD. 11

Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you. 18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; tt devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.'" Ezekiel 28:1-19.

sky

[karl]

Quote:

We think we are the ones who do the action, but even if we jump out of a plane without a parachute, if God has determined it is not time for us to terminate, He has ways of counteracting our actions.

I don't see what this has to do with eternal life or eternal death.

Everything, if we are not ready to die and God determines that, with a little more persuasion, we might be ready to live.

You know very well that EGW talks about God, or holy angels He commissions, or evil angels He permits, doing the act of terminating people's lives. This is the other aspect to DA 764.

We choose, but He acts (or commissions, or permits - it is all the same in terms of His sovereignty.)

[skyblue888]

You know very well that EGW talks about God, or holy angels He commissions, or evil angels He permits, doing the act of terminating people's lives. This is the other aspect to DA 764.

Carl

_____________________________

When He commisions holy angels... yes He does and here is how:

"He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" RH Vol.4, 335.

This is what it means for God to "commission" or "bid" holy angels to destroy.

When will we ever listen to the clear Testimonies of the Lord?

Let us not be like the Jews of old who were stiffnecked! oops don't mean to offend anyone but we need to listen to the HolySpirit, don't we?

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Ethical Problems

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity. [MM Campbell]

Excellent!

Yes, these are issues that need to be considered.

You can say that again and again.

"Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people" (even the professed people of God) concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

k:We think we are the ones who do the action, but even if we jump out of a plane without a parachute, if God has determined it is not time for us to terminate, He has ways of counteracting our actions.

p:I don't see what this has to do with eternal life or eternal death.

k:Everything, if we are not ready to die and God determines that, with a little more persuasion, we might be ready to live.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Excellent!

Yes, these are issues that need to be considered.

s:You can say that again and again.

I've been very disappointed in the lack of interest in discussing these issues. Those who believe that God will set people on fire to torture and kill them just quote the same texts, but don't discuss the issues involving God's character, the principles of God's government, or the points that M. M. Campbell brought out. I've been trying for a long time to engage those on that side of the question in this sort of discussion.

We're just going to go around in circles if we just keep quoting the same texts to each other. We can (and should IMO) discuss *why* we interpret certain texts the way we do, and what the impact is on our view of God's character, the principles of His government, and the issues that M. M. Campbell brought out.

We're told that no truth can be properly understood apart from an understanding of Christ's death on the cross. I'd also like to discuss how this ties into things.

[Archie777]

A: Some people believe Jesus will, during final judgment, gradually cease supernaturally preventing resurrected sinners and evil angels from succumbing to the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning. As a result they will gradually suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

P: Can you name one person who believes this?

A: I had you in mind. I take it you disagree with this summary. If so, I am terribly sorry. I did not mean to misrepresent your view. Please explain how I got it wrong. Thank you.

P: I had in mind what Ty wrote.

A: I'm sorry, Pnatt, but your response doesn't help me understand how I misrepresented your view. Do you (as opposed to Ty) agree Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment? Please include this entire post when you respond. Thank you.

P: If you want to know what I believe, I told you you could read what I posted from Ty. That puts it clearly and eloquently. Or you can read what I've written. This thread is long enough that there are many examples to go by.

DA 764 says: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." You could summarize what I believe this way.

We're discussing the following question - "Do you agree Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment?" To answer this question you quoted from DA 764. Here's the context:

"[The punishment and destruction of the wicked during final judgment] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

I hear Ellen saying God works supernaturally to enable sinners to live long enough to choose or refuse salvation in Jesus. Otherwise, they would immediately die the first time they sin. By refusing to embrace Jesus, they guarantee their punishment and destruction during final judgment. The "very presence" of God is to them a consuming fire. His glory will destroy them.

Elsewhere Ellen says the wicked will suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then they will die. Since one sin is sufficient to cause sinners to suffer and die in the "very presence" of God, it is reasonable to ask, What enables them to live long enough to suffer for all their sins? What prevents them from dying prematurely, that is, before they fully pay their sin debt of death?

Well, if logic means anything, then it is also reasonable to surmise since God is the one who gave them life long enough to choose or refuse salvation in Jesus, and since God is the one who resurrected them and gave them life again to stand trial for their sins, it makes perfect sense to conclude - Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment so that they can live long enough to fully pay their sin debt of death.

Am I the only this makes sense to? Or, are there others?

[Archie777]

We think we are the ones who do the action, but even if we jump out of a plane without a parachute, if God has determined it is not time for us to terminate, He has ways of counteracting our actions.

Good point. We manage the choices but God manages the consequences. He is sovereign. It is our duty and privilege to thank and praise God "for" and "in" everything since it is He who permits or prevents everything. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. Our choice is not the final answer. How God chooses to manage our choices is the final answer. The outcome is the result of God orchestrating our choices.

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

[Archie777]

Doug, thank you for the kind words and support.

[pnattmbtc]

I hear Ellen saying God works supernaturally to enable sinners to live long enough to choose or refuse salvation in Jesus. Otherwise, they would immediately die the first time they sin. By refusing to embrace Jesus, they guarantee their punishment and destruction during final judgment. The "very presence" of God is to them a consuming fire. His glory will destroy them.

Elsewhere Ellen says the wicked will suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then they will die. Since one sin is sufficient to cause sinners to suffer and die in the "very presence" of God, it is reasonable to ask, What enables them to live long to suffer for all their sins?

[pnattmbtc]

Good point. We manage the choices but God manages the consequences. He is sovereign. It is our duty and privilege to thank and praise God "for" and "in" everything since it is He who permits or prevents everything. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. Our choice is not the final answer. How God chooses to manage our choices is the final answer. The outcome is the result of God orchestrating our choices.

Let's be careful here. The holocaust, for example, was not a consequence which God "managed." We wouldn't want to imply by saying "He leaves nothing to choice or chance" that God had something to do with this. The holocaust was not the result of God's orchestrating our choices.

[karl]

When He commisions holy angels... yes He does and here is how:

"He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" RH Vol.4, 335.

This is what it means for God to "commission" or "bid" holy angels to destroy.

Your quote above is not describing the final destruction of the wicked. It is describing the time of trouble.

Below are some other quotes you may wish to consider:

In the rocks and mountains are registered the fact that God did destroy the wicked from off the earth by a flood.... The long-lived antediluvians were swept from the earth because they made void the divine law. God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above.

But the world's intricate machinery is running under the Lord's supervision. Hurricanes, threatening to break forth, are held under control by the regulations of the One who is the Protector of the trembling ones that fear God and keep His commandments. The Lord holds back the tempestuous winds. He will not suffer them to go forth on their death-mission of vengeance until His servants are sealed in their foreheads.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. The great mass of the world will reject God's mercy, and will be overwhelmed in swift and irretrievable ruin.

When David heard the tidings of the death of Nabal, he gave thanks that God had taken vengeance into His own hands. He had been restrained from evil, and the Lord had returned the wickedness of the wicked upon his own head. In this dealing of God with Nabal and David, men may be encouraged to put their cases into the hands of God; for in His own good time He will set matters right.

....yet God spared them, for the full measure of guilt marking them for his vengeance, had not been reached. The iniquity of the Amorites must reach its fullness before God would send forth his mandate to destroy utterly.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold I will destroy them with the earth." But though men were so wicked, God would not destroy them without warning. "My Spirit shall not always strive with man," He said, "yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." During this period of probation the message of warning given to Noah was to sound in their ears.

Their last night is marked by no greater sins than many others before it. But mercy, so long rejected, ceases at last her pleadings. The fires of divine vengeance are kindled in the vale of Siddim. The beautiful but guilty Sodom becomes a desolation, a place never to be built up or inhabited.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 7.

[Archie777]

A: Well, if logic means anything, then it is also reasonable to surmise since God is the one who gave them life long enough to choose or refuse salvation in Jesus, and since God is the one who resurrected them and gave them life again to stand in trial for their sins, it makes perfect sense to conclude - Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment so that they can fully pay their sin debt of death.

P: DA 764 says that had God left Satan and His followers to reap the full results of their sin, they would have perished. It makes sense that God won't do this until He does it, which is during the final judgment.

I cannot discern from what you've written if you agree with the following conclusion: "Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment so that they can fully pay their sin debt of death."

[Archie777]

Archie: Good point. We manage the choices but God manages the consequences. He is sovereign. It is our duty and privilege to thank and praise God "for" and "in" everything since it is He who permits or prevents everything. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. Our choice is not the final answer. How God chooses to manage our choices is the final answer. The outcome is the result of God orchestrating our choices.

P: Let's be careful here. The holocaust, for example, was not a consequence which God "managed." We wouldn't want to imply by saying "He leaves nothing to choice or chance" that God had something to do with this. The holocaust was not the result of God's orchestrating our choices.

Many of the holocaust survivors expressed views similar to the one I articulated above. Jesus also said as much.

John

10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

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I cannot discern from what you've written if you agree with the following conclusion: "Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment so that they can fully pay their sin debt of death."

We've been through this. I don't agree with what you perceive this to mean. As I stated, I like the way Ty put things. I agree with that.

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Archie: Good point. We manage the choices but God manages the consequences. He is sovereign. It is our duty and privilege to thank and praise God "for" and "in" everything since it is He who permits or prevents everything. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. Our choice is not the final answer. How God chooses to manage our choices is the final answer. The outcome is the result of God orchestrating our choices.

P: Let's be careful here. The holocaust, for example, was not a consequence which God "managed." We wouldn't want to imply by saying "He leaves nothing to choice or chance" that God had something to do with this. The holocaust was not the result of God's orchestrating our choices.

A:Many of the holocaust survivors expressed views similar to the one I articulated above. Jesus also said as much.

Is what you're saying something different than what I said? In other words, do you disagree with my response?

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J:Therefore, you MUST believe that God has used compelling power to win the war against sin and Satan.

R:God doesn't need to resort to violence to win your so called war. Violence is evil..it is sin.

Is it? Is violence evil? Or is it OK depending upon the circumstances?

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EGW:In the rocks and mountains are registered the fact that God did destroy the wicked from off the earth by a flood.... The long-lived antediluvians were swept from the earth because they made void the divine law. God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above.

Robert:If I am near a river of lava flow and I fall in it I'll be dead in about 20 sec....The same for the wicked, unless God supernaturally keeps them alive....rejuvenates their bodies every few seconds so that they can feel it again again.