"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Now there came a time in the life of Job when it was necessary to justify himself (self-justification) to withstand the condemnation of his friends but it was not necessary toward God.

Self-justification is self-justification. IF it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Job could have easily said, "I am a sinner saved by grace" when his three friends attacked him, but no he glories in his self-righteousness. This is the mark of a legalist....

One of the characteristics of a legalist is fear of punishment and hope of reward.....

[pnattmbtc]

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Job could have easily said, "I am a sinner saved by grace"

This, far from being easy, would have been impossible. This language didn't exist in Job's time. I think this construction is less than 500 years old.

[Robert]

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Job could have easily said, "I am a sinner saved by grace"

This, far from being easy, would have been impossible. This language didn't exist in Job's time. I think this construction is less than 500 years old.

Abraham was justified by faith....He was saved by God's grace.....

[pnattmbtc]

Sure, everyone is justified by God's grace, but this isn't a construction that existed (i.e., the language) until recently, just a couple of hundred years. So Job could hardly have said what you suggested.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Job holds fast to his integrity even though he doesn't understand what happened. He trusts God no matter what. That must be our attitude, too, instead of saying that if God actively destroys the wicked, we won't worship Him.

God's actively destroying the wicked would be one thing; His actively torturing them is another. "Destruction" and "torture" are two different things. It's the torture which is particularly objectionable. If God actively destroyed the wicked in some merciful way, such as with fire from heaven that instantly destroyed them, that could be defended on moral grounds. There would still be some problems with the idea (such as making sin to be innocuous, and using methods developed by and only found by the enemy, to name two), but it would avoid the problem of having God being a torturer.

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That's really declaring that we think our own reasoning is able to determine what God should do in His dealings with His subjects.

We were made in God's image, as moral creatures, able to judge morality. God invites us to reason together with Him, and lays open His government for investigation. He has nothing to hide. God has given us the ability to determine that He shouldn't torture His subjects (because of the moral issue involved, torture being cruel and cruelty being Satanic), and also that He wouldn't (because of His character).

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The words of God, "you incited Me against him, to destroy him [Heb. 'swallow him up'] without cause" (Job 2: 3),means, "you're trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason," or "you were trying to influence me to wipe him out for nothing."

No they don't. They mean, "You incited me to permit you to attack Job." This is clear from chapter one:

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9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

God told Satan, "Behold, all that he had is in your power." He represented this as He Himself acting upon Satan in saying, "you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause," which is simply one of many examples of God's representing Himself as doing that which He permits.

For example:

1."But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." (Ex. 4:21; EGW comments "(God) might have prevented it...but this He did not choose to do (5T 119-120)).

2.And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, ... (Numbers 21:6; EGW Comments "Here it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses, and permission was granted" (PP 387).

3.The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1 says, "Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel).

4.1 Chron. 10:13, 14 says God killed Saul, whereas 1 Chron. 10:4 says "Saul took a sword and fell on it.

5.God said, "I ... create evil." (Isa. 45:7; EGW comments, "God did not create evil. He only made the good ... Evil, sin, and death were not created by God; they are the result of disobedience, which originated in Satan" (5T 503).

6.Scripture says that God destroyed Jerusalem, but EGW says Satan did this, and conceals his own work by representing that God did this.

7.Scripture relates God saying, "I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor" (2 Sam. 12:11, 12. EGW comments, "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them (PP 739)).

Since 7 is a nice number, I'll stop here. These are examples of God presenting Himself through inspiration as doing that which He permits. This demonstrates that language alone is not enough to determine whether or not God is acting directly or passively. Other factors must be taken into consideration (such as, God's character. We know, for example, that God did not literally send lying spirits to Ahab because this is contrary to His character).

Here's a particularly interesting statement from the SOP:

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The Canaanites had filled up the measure of their iniquity, and the Lord would no longer bear with them. His defense being removed from them, they would fall easy prey to the Hebrews" (4T 151)

God was protecting the Canaanites from the Hebrews!

yes, it amazes me how many times ellen white says to the effect, "that doesnt mean...", then goes on to clarify the issue. im surprised more people havent noticed that....

the bible ends up backing her understanding the more we study it versus, well, "authorities", not meaning to be insulting. just surprised at how much stock too many sdas put in albeit well-meaning "authorities"...

[Robert]

Sure, everyone is justified by God's grace.....

Really, the Pharisee were justified by faith? The Judaizers were justified by faith? I don't think so!

As to Job, he effectively repented of his self-righteousness.....

But my point is that both the messengers, Job's three friends, Job and Satan himself put the blame on God for all the mayhem that happened in Job's life...

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Are you saying that you believe it would be wrong, or immoral, of God to make Satan's punishment far greater than anyone else's?

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pnattmbtc: I'm saying that torture is immoral, whether it's Satan, or anyone else.

Notice Ellen White's words, "In union with Christ they [the saints] judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and DECIDING every case according to the deeds done in the body. THEN THE PORTION WHICH THE WICKED MUST SUFFER IS METED OUT, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the books of death... Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ... [satan] is MADE to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment IS TO BE far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, HE IS STILL TO LIVE AND SUFFER ON. In the cleansing flames [which come down from God out of heaven, and also come up out of the earth] the wicked are at last destroyed... The FULL PENALTY OF THE LAW has been visited; the DEMANDS OF JUSTICE have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of Jehovah." GG 661, 673

Please tell what you understand those passages to be saying to us.

Do you see where there is any "torture" in that passage?

You are calling something "torture" that is not really torture at all. What you call "torture" is the punishment that God metes out to the wicked who deserve suffering and death because of their wickednes and transgression against God's holy law. It's simply a matter of your not allowing God to choose how He shall punish the wicked. He's not asking you or any other human being to tell Him what He should do with the works of His hands. He wants the whole universe to watch the process and see the end result, but He's not asking creatures to tell tell Him how to do it or what to do. This seems to be your problem: you will only grant God the power and the right to decide how to punish and destroy the wicked if He does it the way you feel He should. You don't love Him and trust Him for who He is but for what He does. If He does what you dislike, you view Him as similar to the devil. Is that right?

What do you think of this sentence:--

" THE PORTION WHICH THE WICKED MUST SUFFER IS METED OUT....[satan] is MADE to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment IS TO BE far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, HE IS STILL TO LIVE AND SUFFER ON."

Why MUST the wicked and Satan suffer a particular portion according to their deeds?

In what sense is Satan's suffering to be longer?

Why don't the wicked simply commit suicide?

Notice in particular that their suffering and punishment is decided upon before the resurrection of the wicked. It says they "must" suffer--- not "will" suffer.

Explain how you see this happening.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc: 2.Sin causes suffering, as Ty described, which you said you agreed with. It's perfectly logical that the more sin, the more guilt, and thus the more suffering when this sin is revealed.

3.The wicked don't die instantly.

Yes, I did say I agreed with what Ty said on that post I read. But I was just talking about the rather small passage I read. I'll have to get his books and read them, because I can't tell you whether I would agree with everything he said or believes. I've enjoy listening to him on 3 ABN, but it's been a couple of years since I was able to get it.

I agree the dead don't die instantly. But why don't they commit suicide rather than suffer the way you describe? I can imagine many would kill themselves under those circumstances if given the opportunity. So what's keep them from it? For instance, why wouldn't a parent kill a teenage son instead of seeing him go through the terrible agony?

Don't you think there will be some poeple who simply don't care what sins they committed? Or will God force them to be sorry and feel bad? Does the description of the wicked by Ellen White and the Bible make you believe that the wicked are going to be feeling sorry for the sins themselves-- or do they feel sorry about not being able to go on living?

Remember that the wicked are raised up in terrible condition. They will have the same cancers that put them in the grave. They can't be feeling very good. They have to be in pain and suffering even apart from any fire. God purposely raises them up in wretched condition-- with all the health problems that caused them to go into the grave. Under those circumstances, why do you suppose they will want to live? It seems to me that they would want to die and get it over with. Many of them wanted to die anyway. A lot of people don't want to live forever. They want to go to sleep and never wake up.

Do you think the wicked suffer because of their sins? It sounds like you believe God will make them suffer that way. In other words, God will perform a miracle so that the wicked, who normally wouldn't care what they did, will care very much because God will cause them to care.

My impression from readin EGW is that the wicked care only for a relatively short time and then they go back to being their old evil selves again. They're completely unchanged. They die cursing God and trying to kill each other and Satan. This is after they've all been contrained by the force of overwhelming evidence to acknowledge that God is just and that they deserve their punishment.

You see it a lot different from that?

[pnattmbtc]

Sure, everyone is justified by God's grace.

[skyblue888]

Job was not a self-righteous man. He was a perfect and upright man. The righteousness which he had was from God. He did justify himself against his accusers but he never justified himself toward God.

"The self-justification which he felt was necessary to withstand the condemnation of his friends is not necessary toward God. Says the Lord to Job, 'Gird up now your loins like a man,' and Job no sooner hears the divine voice than his soul is bowed down with a sense of his sinfulness, and he says before God, 'I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." 3 T 509.

"When God has spoken, my husband has hearkened to His voice; but to hear the condemnation and reflections of his friends who do not seem to discriminate has been a great trial. When his brethren shall have stood under the same circumstances, and borne the responsibilities that he has borne with as little encouragement and help as he has had, then they may be able to understand how to sustain, how to comfort, how to bless, without torturing his feelings by reflections and censures which he in no way deserves." ibid.

Job vindicated his character against the accusations of his friends who did not understand his humiliation and suffering. But he humbled himself when he heard the divine voice just as it is written that "At every step of in Christian experience our repentance will deepen." C.O.L.160.

This idea that Job's problem was self-righteousness came from Jack Sequeira. I read it from one of his books on Laodicea. He has a whole chapter about it and this is the idea that you Robert have been putting forward for more than a decade.

This idea came as a result of misunderstanding or misinterpreting the book of Job.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Notice Ellen White's words, "In union with Christ they [the saints] judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and DECIDING every case according to the deeds done in the body. THEN THE PORTION WHICH THE WICKED MUST SUFFER IS METED OUT, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the books of death... Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ... [satan] is MADE to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment IS TO BE far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, HE IS STILL TO LIVE AND SUFFER ON. In the cleansing flames [which come down from God out of heaven, and also come up out of the earth] the wicked are at last destroyed... The FULL PENALTY OF THE LAW has been visited; the DEMANDS OF JUSTICE have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of Jehovah." GG 661, 673

Please tell what you understand those passages to be saying to us.

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc: 2.Sin causes suffering, as Ty described, which you said you agreed with. It's perfectly logical that the more sin, the more guilt, and thus the more suffering when this sin is revealed.

3.The wicked don't die instantly.

J:Yes, I did say I agreed with what Ty said on that post I read. But I was just talking about the rather small passage I read.

[Archie777]

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The facts are, Pnatt, you agree Jesus must supernaturally prevent sinners from dying the instant they sin. Unless, of course, you have changed your mind. Have you?

I've never put things this way.

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You also believe Jesus will resurrect them and once again supernaturally keep them alive during final judgment. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact they will not immediately die in consequence of the natural and inevitable result of sin?

I haven't said this either.

The SOP says that if we have to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.

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We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.(MB 116)

I've said that in the judgment the wicked will have to bear their own guilt, and it will crush them. I've also quoted DA 764, which says that if God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would perish. She explains that God could not have let this happen in the beginning, because it would not have been understood that death is the inevitable result of sin. That is, it would have appeared that there death was due to "an arbitrary act of power of God" as opposed to "the result of their own choice."

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Do you think they naturally possess the ability to live with sin without dying?

They don't naturally possess the ability to live at all. Life comes from God. Once again, the same passage from DA 764 illuminates the situation:

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God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

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More sin means more time alive? How does that work? What will prevent them from dying after they pay their sin debt of death for their first sin? What enables them to live long enough to pay for the rest of their many sins?

Who sinned the most? Satan, right? Are we told that long after the others have passed, Satan is still alive?

1. I understand you believe Jesus does not leave sinners to reap the natural, inevitable result of sinning, namely, death.

2. However, what you haven't explained is how He prevents it. Do you think Jesus does anything special to prevent sinners from succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

3. Or, do you think sinning and not dying is natural and that Jesus need do nothing special to prevent it?

4. Assuming you believe sinning naturally and inevitably results in suffering and death, and that Jesus must do something supernaturally to prevent it, why, then, are you so unwilling to say so?

5. Your response above implies you disagree with this observation. Or, have I misunderstood you?

6. Also, do you believe Jesus is supernaturally enabling evil angels to withstand succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

[Archie777]

A: "their worm dieth not"

R: Okay, I couldn't find "the worm of life", but what you have is close....Still, what does that mean?

[Archie777]

Pnat: Sure, everyone is justified by God's grace.....

R: Really, the Pharisee were justified by faith? The Judaizers were justified by faith? I don't think so!

[pnattmbtc]

1. I understand you believe Jesus does not leave sinners to reap the natural, inevitable result of sinning, namely, death.

2. However, what you haven't explained is how He prevents it. Do you think Jesus does anything special to prevent sinners from succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

3. Or, do you think sinning and not dying is natural and that Jesus need do nothing special to prevent it?

4. Assuming you believe sinning naturally and inevitably results in suffering and death, and that Jesus must do something supernaturally to prevent it, why, then, are you so unwilling to say so?

5. Your response above implies you disagree with this observation. Or, have I misunderstood you?

6. Also, do you believe Jesus is supernaturally enabling evil angels to withstand succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

1.Not until He does, right.

2.I've answered this. God doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin. (DA 764)

3.I've quoted DA 764 to address this.

4.Same answer.

5.DA 764 says that death is "the inevitable result of sin." I believe this.

6.Yes. DA 764 referred to "Satan and his followers," which is principally Satan and the evil angels, although the same principle would apply to his human followers as well.

[pnattmbtc]

Archie, you don't believe God will set people on fire to make them suffer, correct? You believe that there will be fire around them, that they'll feel heat from the fire, but they won't actually be set on fire, correct?

[pnattmbtc]

Does the law demand a painless death? If so, who or what would ensure sinners die painlessly? Seems to me suffering is an inherent part of dying. Don't know of anyone who died without suffering first. Will the second death be any different? Will it be less inherently painful than the first death? Seems unlikely.

Also, did the antediluvians suffer before they drowned to death? Did the sodomites suffer before they burned to death? I ask these particular questions because in the NT these two events are cited as examples of the final judgment. How much can we learn about the second death by studying the death of the antediluvians and the sodomites?

All of these incidents are very different in character than what's being suggested for the final judgment. What's being suggested is that God sets people on fire, and keeps them alive for a certain amount of time, could be days, so that they can continue to burn, so they can suffer excruciating pain, in order to make them pay the debt for their sins. Even if these other events occurred the way you think they did, none of these would correspond to what's being suggested in regards to the final judgment.

Regarding suffering, even if one were to allow that suffering is a part of death (which isn't at all necessarily true; for example, someone flying an experiment plain that ran into another plain and was immediately destroyed probably wouldn't feel any pain; people who die in their sleep almost certainly feel no pain; people who take overdoses of barbiturates or die of carbon monoxide poisoning as well; other examples could be given), that still wouldn't answer (or address) Robert's question, which is if the law requires a certain amount of suffering as a penalty for sin.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, Robert's earlier post was clearly correct about the 2nd death being the punishment for sin. Clearly, Adam was made mortal. He was going to die (sleep death or 1st death) even IF he had not eaten from the tree of knowing good and evil. BUT, he had something available to him that those outside of the garden didn't, and that was the Tree of Life. Access to this tree was cut off after Adam's disobedience of what God commanded. There is a big difference between punishment and consequences.

Same with Satan--he was not allowed to be in heaven after Jesus' resurrection because sin is not tolerated in the God's Kingdom. Satan believed and practiced the same as they do in the Eastern Religions. Like the yin and yang. That is why we see the Buddha with his hands together and the circle of black and white with little dots of the opposite color in them. IT IS MY OPINION that Satan's argument may have contained this yin and yang type of principle since it is so prevalent in many religions today.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: John317

the wicked are at last [after being tortured] destroyed... The FULL PENALTY OF THE LAW has been visited [GG 661, 673]

Show me, in the Bible, where the law demands torture. The law demands the 2nd death....Note "death"...not torture.

Sorry Robert but I've read that passage over and over and I don't see the word "torture" there? Are you adding this? Are you making it say something that is not there or being implied?

pk

[Robert]

Job was not a self-righteous man. He was a perfect and upright man. The righteousness which he had was from God.

[Robert]

3 T 509.

Please...use your Bible....Leaning on every word EGW states is good if you belong to a cult....She said, not me, get it from the Bible. Defaulting to EGW makes one lazy and prideful (i.e., EGW said it, therefore it must be right...why go to the Bible?). She is not the measuring stick....If you make her that I have no use for you. Understand?

[Robert]

This idea came as a result of misunderstanding or misinterpreting the book of Job.

This means war....

Jack, and he is using the Bible in context:

Turn to Job chapter one. In the very first verse we are given a statement concerning Job. The second half of the first verse says:

... This man [Job] was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Then, in verse 8, the same thing is repeated, but this time in the context of God having a dialogue with Satan. God said to Satan, “Look at my man Job. He is perfect, he is upright, he hates evil, and he fears God”:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

And you remember what Satan said? “Yes, he does all this because you have built a hedge. You remove the protection and you will see, give him into my hands and you will see what he will do. He will deny You, he will reject you, he will turn his back on you.” Verses 9-11:

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

And so God said in verse 12a,

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

“You can have him. All that he has is in your power. But you can’t touch him, you can touch his possessions, you can touch what he has, but you can’t touch him, you can’t kill him.”

And so the first test comes, beginning in verse 13 and onwards, there are four calamities, verses 13-18:

One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, a messenger came to Job and said, “The men were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

Now the four calamities that come to Job, what did Job do, after he went through these four calamities? Job rose up, he tore his robe, which is a typical custom in those days. He shaved his head, which is a typical sign of sorrow. He fell down upon the ground and worshipped and spoke (Verses 20-22):

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.”

Then, in verse 22:

In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

He did not turn his back to God. Now Job was a righteous person. Here is my question: was his righteousness the righteousness of works or was his righteousness the righteousness of faith? Well, let’s study it, and we will see the end result. I’m using Job because you will see a very close similarity to the Laodicean message.

God and Satan had a second dialogue in chapter two. Verse 3:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

And Satan said, “Give me him — not his property or his belongings or his children — but I want him in my hands, let me touch him, and you will notice what he will do.” Verses 4-5:

“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

And in verse 6 of chapter two the Lord said, “Satan, he is in your hand. The only thing you can’t do is kill him.” Verse 6:

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

And what did Satan do? He smote him with boils, terrible boils. Verses 7-8:

So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

And then comes Job’s wife in verse 9:

His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity?”

Please notice: “Are you still holding on to your righteousness, to your integrity, to your honesty?”

His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!”

Of course, he rebukes her. Verse 10a:

He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

And then the last part of verse 10:

In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

In a sense, Job passed both the tests. Now comes the three friends. And you will find the names of the three friends in verse 11: Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Now the arguments of these three friends — so called comforters — is typical of the Eastern mentality and is typical of human mentality. If you read their arguments all through this book — and their argument was wrong, it was not based on truth and, therefore, at the end of the book God rebukes them — they were saying that the reason he was suffering all these calamities plus the boils was because there was some secret sin in his life, that he was doing something behind the backs of the people, and that God was punishing him.

Now does God punish us like that? No, but that was the argument. But I want you to see how Job reacted in this dialogue, and this is important. I will only give you certain texts here and there because we are not able to go through the whole book in detail, but I would recommend that you study for yourselves. In chapter 6, after their arguments were presented and so on, Job responds in verse 24 and you will notice that Job defends his righteousness before his friends:

“Teach me, and I will be quiet; show me where I have been wrong.”

“Where have I gone wrong? Show me what is that sin of mine that you are accusing me of.” Verse 25:

“How painful are honest words! But what do your arguments prove?”

Verse 30:

“Is there any wickedness on my lips? Can my mouth not discern malice?”

What does Job do? He defends his righteousness. Let’s go on to chapter 10, and you will notice that Job is now defending his righteousness even before God. Job 10:2:

“I will say to God: Do not condemn me, but tell me what charges you have against me.”

“Come on God, even You, show me where I have gone wrong.” Look at verse 7:

“...though you know that I am not guilty...”

Verses 14-15:

If I sinned, you would be watching me and would not let my offense go unpunished. If I am guilty — woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.

In other words, he’s defending himself. “Show me where I’m wrong, show me what my sin is.” Go to chapter 13. Job pleads with God to show him his sins. In fact, Job is so confident that he is sinless, look at verses 23-24:

How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin. Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?

In other words, “These three ‘comforters’ are accusing me of some secret sin. God, show me where I’m wrong. I’d like to know.”

Was there a sin in Job’s life? The answer is no. Was there a problem? Yes, there was a problem, we shall see it in a moment. Chapter 16:15-17:

I have sewed sackcloth over my skin and buried my brow in the dust. My face is red with weeping, deep shadows ring my eyes; yet my hands have been free of violence and my prayer is pure.

Can you see what he’s doing? What is he defending? His self-righteousness. Turn to chapter 23 beginning with verse 10. Now all this time there’s an argument. These three friends are saying, “There is something wrong, he is defending himself.” And Job is saying, “Nothing doing! Let me turn to God and ask Him, let Him show me.” Job 23:10-13:

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. My feet have closely followed his steps; I have kept to his way without turning aside. I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread. But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.

In other words he’s saying, “I have not sinned, I have kept His commandments, I have held my integrity.” And he goes on. And then the three men come back at him. You need to keep on reading the whole chapter and book.

Then we come to chapter 31, which I recommend you read entirely. Here is the final argument of Job. In the KJV there is a subtitle, “Job’s solemn protestation of his integrity.” In other words, in this whole chapter Job strongly defends his self-righteousness, and insists that there is no sin in him. And then look at Job 32:1:

So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Tell me, was his righteousness the righteousness of faith, or was it the righteousness of self? Now please, I would like to point out that Job was sincere, he was honest. But there was a problem, a problem that he did not realize; it was subconscious, he did not know. I will show you that in a moment.

After the arguments of the three friends — or comforters, as they are called — a fourth man stepped in. He must have been the youngest of the four because in Job 32:4 it says:

Now Elihu had waited before speaking to Job because they were older than he.

So he was the youngest, he was like Waggoner and Jones, he was a kid, an upstart according to them. And if you read Elihu’s argument you will notice that he is trying to convince Job that his problem is not sin, but self-righteousness. Elihu describes Job as saying in Job 34:5,10:

“Job says, ‘I am innocent, but God denies me justice.’

“So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.”

In other words, God is not punishing me for something that I have done wrong, God is not that kind of a Person. And he’s right there. But the question that we must ask is, “Why did God allow Job to go through this terrible experience?” I want to remind you of Hebrews 12:6,11:

...Because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Now look at Job 35:2, Elihu replies:

“Do you think this is just? You say, ‘I will be cleared by God.’”

[Note: Some translations read, “My righteousness is more than God’s.”]

Boy, Job’s self-righteousness is even undermining God’s righteousness. The argument goes on until we come to chapter 38. Now in this chapter, God steps in. All this time there has been an argument between Job and his friends, first the three friends and then the fourth friend, Elihu. But now God steps in. And I want you to notice: if you read chapter 38 to the end of the book, you will discover that God rebukes the three men for wrong theology. He says, “You are wrong to say that God punishes because you have done something bad.”

And you remember, Christ tried to correct the Jews of the same problem. The Jews believed that if you had leprosy, or you were sick, or you were maimed, or you were born blind, it was because of your sin, or maybe the sin of your parents. Remember, Jesus had to correct this many times in His earthly ministry. And God is correcting the three men. But we are not concerned about that, we are concerned about God’s dealing with Job. Job 38:1:

Then the Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said:

Now please don’t ask me how He answered by the whirlwind, but that’s something which was common in those days. God speaks to Job, and I want you to notice how Job responds. Did Job listen to God? The answer is yes. Did Job repent? The answer is yes. Now look at chapter 40:3-4:

Then Job answered the Lord: “I am unworthy — how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.”

At last Job admits that God is right, that he, Job, is sinful.

The work of the law is to do what? Stop every mouth. Romans 3:19:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Has the law silenced your mouth?

I am unworthy — how can I reply to you?

“Yes, I answered those three comforters of mine, and I answered Elihu, but how can I answer back to You, God? You are right, I admit it.” Job 40:5:

“I spoke once, but I have no answer — twice, but I will say no more.”

God, you are always right. In other words, what God is pointing out in Job’s life is that there was a problem. That problem was going to hinder his eternal destiny; God had to correct it. He did it by this method, by going through this calamity. Now turn to chapter 42:1-3:

Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.”

What was he uttering that he understood not? He was defending his self-righteousness. He did not know that his self-righteousness was filthy rags before God. But now God opens his eyes, and Job says, “I have now understood...things too wonderful for me.” Verses 4-5:

“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.”

In other words, “I heard about you before, but now I have direct knowledge from you.” Now listen to verse 6, and folks, this is the text that I want you to look at carefully:

“Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

“God, you are right.” He’s repenting of his self-righteousness. He abhors himself. Have you and I reached that stage? That is why I said that repentance from self-righteousness is very painful, folks, because you have to swallow your pride. You have to swallow your pride as an individual, and we have to swallow our pride as a denomination. It’s hard, folks. It was hard for Job, but he realized that God was right. It was hard for Peter to repent about his own opinion. It is hard for us.

But you know the wonderful thing is this: after Job had repented, God said, “The lesson has been learnt, what shall I do?” Look at Job 42:12:

The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first.

“I will heap on you, Job, all the blessings now because you have learned your lesson.” And then you can read about all that God blessed him with (verses 12-16):

The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters. The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation.

God blessed him wonderfully. Did God enjoy putting Job through the crisis? No, there was something that had to be learnt and the only way was this method. So God put him through it, but when he had learnt it God blessed him. And the last verse (17) says:

And so he died, old and full of years.

He was a converted man. Folks, that is the condition that we have to reach. We have to abhor ourselves that Christ may be our righteousness. That is why Sister White says, “It is the Counsel to Laodicea that will produce the shaking.” That is why she says that there will be many ministers who are not willing to give up their righteousness which is unrighteousness for the pure truth of Christ our Righteousness.

It is hard, folks, because the ultimate end is that a true Christian rejoices in Christ and has no confidence in self. And that is the difficult part. That’s why I went briefly through the book of Job to show you that there was a problem. God allowed Satan to touch Job for a purpose. That purpose was to correct him of self-righteousness. Did Job learn from the chastisement? Yes. Did He repent? Yes. I don’t know how God is going to chastise us, folks. He has been rebuking us so far, but it will come, folks, and when it does, you only have to look at the history of Job.

[Robert]

I'm not familiar with your line of thinking, so I don't understand how Gal 3:10 explains why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners.

[Archie777]

Originally Posted By: Archie

1. I understand you believe Jesus does not leave sinners to reap the natural, inevitable result of sinning, namely, death.

2. However, what you haven't explained is how He prevents it. Do you think Jesus does anything special to prevent sinners from succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

3. Or, do you think sinning and not dying is natural and that Jesus need do nothing special to prevent it?

4. Assuming you believe sinning naturally and inevitably results in suffering and death, and that Jesus must do something supernaturally to prevent it, why, then, are you so unwilling to say so?

5. Your response above implies you disagree with this observation. Or, have I misunderstood you?

6. Also, do you believe Jesus is supernaturally enabling evil angels to withstand succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning?

1.Not until He does, right.

2.I've answered this. God doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin. (DA 764)

3.I've quoted DA 764 to address this.

4.Same answer.

5.DA 764 says that death is "the inevitable result of sin." I believe this.

6.Yes. DA 764 referred to "Satan and his followers," which is principally Satan and the evil angels, although the same principle would apply to his human followers as well.

I don't feel as though I'm any closer to understanding what you believe Jesus does to prevent sinners from succumbing to the natural, inevitable result of sinning. Simply saying He doesn't leave them to suffer and die the instant they begin revisiting their sins during final judgment isn't the same thing as explaining how He prevents it from happening. Does your view prevent you from knowing the answer?

As you know, I do not believe Jesus has to do anything to prevent sinners from suffering and dying the instant they begin revisiting their sins during final judgment for the simple reason I do not believe the natural, inevitable result of sinning is intense emotional suffering ending in second death. Instead, I believe the inevitable result of sin is capital punishment executed and inflicted by Jesus at the end of time in truth and in justice. The inhabitants of God's far flung Universe will praise Jesus for eliminating sin and sinners and for restoring peace and paradise.