"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[skyblue888]

I think this statement says it all about, faith, grace, works and merits.

"Although we have no merit in ourselves, in the great goodness and love of God we are rewarded as if the merit were our own. When we have done all the good we can possibly do, we are still unprofitable servants. We have done only what was our duty. What we have accomplished has been wrought solely through the grace of Christ, and no reward is due to us from God on the ground of our merit. But through the merit of our Saviour, every promise that God has made will be fulfilled, and every man will be rewarded according to his deeds." {RH, June 27, 1893 par. 15

_________________________________________________

Here is another one, almost identical:

"We are accepted through Christ’s merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace—His Spirit-- that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed by the strength of our own sinful nature.” 5 B.C.1122.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

How can you possibly construe God making promises to us as legalism?

Because we are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, period.

Then everyone would be saved.

Quote:

If you add what He does in you then what He already accomplished is incomplete.

We don't add to what Christ did. We accept Him as our personal Savior, which dramatically changes us.

Quote:

That is what Paul terms "another gospel".

You have ideas that Paul could not possibly have had, as they didn't exist yet. Paul's gospel had to have meaning for those to whom he was talking.

[pnattmbtc]

p:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

What is this?

R:Self-evident, right?

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Quote:

Robert: No, that's the wrong interpretation....

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

Almost all Greek manuscripts have "they that do his commandments," whereas only a handful read "those who wash their robes."

Both readings mean the same thing. You can't wash your robes without keeping God's commandments, and as a person keeps the commandments in the biblical sense, they will be washing their robes. It's talking about washing one's robes of character in the blood of the Lamb. (Compare Rev. 7: 14 and Hebrews 9: 14) Believers become more like Christ, who, of course, kept the commandments of His Father. Notice the saints wash their own robes in Christ's bood; Jesus does not wash our robes for us.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert]p:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

What is this?

R:Self-evident, right?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: You mean self-evident gobbly gook?

They look like references of some sort, but what? For example, "PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald." What's this? And the others?

Good point. I have no idea where to find a quote in "PR- O8" or "AT-The Two Covenants."

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook]Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Quote:

ROBERT: So to be justified I must keep the law?

For sure, we can't justify ourselves by keeping the law. It is God alone who justifies us-- sets us in right relationship with Himself-- because of His grace, and we receieve this free gift through faith. If we are truly justified-- in right relationship with God-- we will be found keeping God's commandments. We certainly won't be deliberately, willfully practicing sin, i.e., deliberately doing those things we know to be contrary to God's will. This is the message of 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

[maric777]

get to tha basics, when adam and eve disobeyed God they showed untrust to God's word and that of course brought transegression of the God's explicit command, they lived their bliss times when they trusted God on His word, the same principle is after the Fall, if we trust in God and his Son who became the man and died for ours sins throgh His AGAPE and GRACE and live according to His will than we can better appreciate God in the words (l must say) of EGW: that we are bound to God with greater bounds than before the Fall

[Guest]

So to be justified I must keep the law?

[Guest]

Quote:

How can you possibly construe God making promises to us as legalism?

Because we are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, period.

Then everyone would be saved.

Quote:

If you add what He does in you then what He already accomplished is incomplete.

We don't add to what Christ did. We accept Him as our personal Savior, which dramatically changes us.

Quote:

That is what Paul terms "another gospel".

You have ideas that Paul could not possibly have had, as they didn't exist yet. Paul's gospel had to have meaning for those to whom he was talking.

Amen pnat

[Robert]

Wow, such self-righteousness!

Guys, are you doing the following? If not you have no right to call yourself a commandment keeper!

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

"The life of Christ is our example. Did he seek ease and self-indulgence? Ah, no! He “was in all points tempted like as we are;” he was “a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief.” Yet his heart was so full of love and interest for others that he thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself. [10-22-85]

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

Sorry, I can't find these commandment keepers that you guys keep talking about. Maybe you guys need some eye ointment?

[Robert]

For sure, we can't justify ourselves by keeping the law.

But Richard states that Paul says we must....So you two are at odds with each other....

[Robert]

Quote:

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

What is this?

It is from the EGW CD from the White Estate....I think you guys are just stalling for time....

[pnattmbtc]

Obedience to whom; to God.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, this is the third time I'm asking this. What is PT - Advent Review and Sabbath Herald? Or PR - 08?

This just looks like gobbley gook. It has no meaning to me. What am I supposed to do with this? Look something up? What?

If it's a reference, why don't you list the reference, like I gave as an example? If it's not a reference, what is it?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, think of it this way. If you don't love God or the principles of His government (aka agape), you wouldn't be happy in heaven. We need to be transformed so that we are in harmony with God and His principles. This is what being justified is all about; being set right with God.

Here are some thoughts from Waggoner which explain righteousness by faith:

Quote:

The case, then, stands thus: 1) The law of God is perfect righteousness, and perfect conformity to it is demanded of everyone who shall enter the kingdom of heaven. 2) But the law has not a particle of righteousness to bestow upon any man, for all are sinners and are unable to comply with its requirements. No matter how diligently nor how zealously a man works, nothing that he can do will meet the full measure of the law's demands. It is too high for him to attain to; he cannot obtain righteousness by the law. "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified [made righteous] in His sight." What a deplorable condition! We must have the righteousness of the law or we cannot enter heaven, and yet the law has no righteousness for one of us. It will not yield to our most persistent and energetic efforts the smallest portion of that holiness without which no man can see the Lord.

Who, then, can be saved? Can there, then, be such a thing as a righteous person? Yes, for the Bible often speaks of them. It speaks of Lot as "that righteous man." It says, "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him, for they shall eat the fruit of their doings" (Isa. 3:10), thus indicating that there will be righteous persons to receive the reward, and it plainly declares that there will be a righteous nation at the last, saying, "In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah: We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in." Isa. 26:1,2. David says, "Thy law is the truth." Ps. 119:142. It is not only truth, but it is the sum of all truth; consequently, the nation that keeps the truth will be a nation that keeps the law of God. Such will be doers of His will, and they shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 7:21.

The question, then, is, How may the righteousness that is necessary in order that one may enter that city, be obtained? To answer this question is the great work of the gospel. Let us first have an object lesson on justification or the imparting of righteousness. The fact may help us to a better understanding of the theory. The example is given in Luke 18:9-14 in these words:

And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others; Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This was given to show how we may not, and how we may, attain to righteousness. The Pharisees are not extinct; there are many in these days who expect to gain righteousness by their own good deeds. They trust in themselves that they are righteous. They do not always so openly boast of their goodness, but they show in other ways that they are trusting to their own righteousness. Perhaps the spirit of the Pharisee--the spirit which would recount to God one's own good deeds as a reason for favor--is found as frequently as anywhere else among those professed Christians who feel the most bowed down on account of their sins. They know that they have sinned, and they feel condemned. They mourn over their sinful state and deplore their weakness. Their testimonies never rise above this level. Often they refrain for very shame from speaking in the social meeting, and often they do not dare approach God in prayer. After having sinned to a greater degree than usual, they refrain from prayer for some time, until the vivid sense of their failure has passed away or until they imagine that they have made up for it by special good behavior. Of what is this a manifestation? Of that Pharisaic spirit that would flaunt its own righteousness in the face of God; that will not come before Him unless it can lean on the false prop of its own fancied goodness. They want to be able to say to the Lord, "See how good I have been for the past few days; you surely will accept me now."

But what is the result? The man who trusted in his own righteousness had none, while the man who prayed, in heart-felt contrition, "God be merciful to me, a sinner," went down to his house a righteous man. Christ says that he went justified; that is, made righteous.

[pnattmbtc]

Some key points from Waggoner's statement.

1.There is such a thing as a righteous person, as the Bible speaks of them.

2.Righteousness = obedience to the law.

Quote:

In Ps. 119:172 the Psalmist thus addresses the Lord, "My tongue shall speak of Thy word, for all Thy commandments are righteousness." The commandments are righteousness, not simply in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God. For proof read the following:

Lift up your eyes to the heavens and look upon the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but my salvation shall be forever and my righteousness shall not be abolished. Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." Isa. 51:6,7.

What do we learn from this? That they who know the righteousness of God are those in whose heart is His law, and therefore that the law of God is the righteousness of God.

This may be proved again, as follows: "All unrighteousness is sin." 1 John 5:17. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness; therefore sin and unrighteousness are identical. But if unrighteousness is transgression of the law, righteousness must be obedience to the law. Or, to put the proposition into mathematical form:

Unrighteousness = sin. 1 John 5:17. Transgression of the law = sin. 1 John 3:4.

Therefore, according to the axiom that two things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other, we have: Unrighteousness = transgression of the law

...which is a negative equation. The same thing, stated in positive terms, would be: Righteousness = obedience to the law.

Now what law is it obedience to which is righteousness and disobedience to which is sin? It is that law which says, "Thou shalt not covet," for the apostle Paul tells us that this law convinced him of sin. Rom. 7:7. The law of ten commandments, then, is the measure of the righteousness of God. Since it is the law of God and is righteousness, it must be the righteousness of God. There is, indeed, no other righteousness.

3.Righteousness is obtained as the publican obtained it, not by means of what the Pharisee did.

To put it in simple terms, the Holy Spirit moves upon our hearts, presenting us Christ. If we do not resist His wooing, we will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for our sins, and the Holy Spirit creates a new heart within us, one which loves God and His principles. As we continue to behold Christ, we are transformed into the same image, and we would not be unhappy in heaven, as God's character and principles will be appealing to us.

As long as we hate God and His principles, heaven would be torture to us. The key thing for us is to love God and His principles (aka, be righteous).

[Archie777]

Originally Posted By: Archie

Pnatt, during prayer this morning it occurred to me to ask you about King David. As you know, he withdrew his protection and permitted Uriah to be killed. Most people hold King David accountable for Uriah's death even though he did not directly kill him.

Do you agree King David was culpable for Uriah's death? If so, do you also agree Jesus is culpable for those who die when He withdraws His protection?

These situations are very different. This has been explained already many times, on this very thread!

Quote:

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them ...

Note that the Jews *caused* the protection of God to be withdrawn from them. This is a key point. If we don't get this point, we won't see the character of God as being any different regardless of whether God causes the destruction or allows it to happen.

Apparently this distinction is very difficult to see from the camp who believes God directly destroys, because this same argument is suggested again and again. I think pretty much everyone on the "God directly destroys" camp participating in this thread has made it.

I hear you saying David was culpable but Jesus isn't because sinners "cause" Him to withdraw His protection. One escapes culpability if he is forced to withdraw protection. Obviously this idea assumes Jesus has never directly caused sinners to suffer and die. Otherwise, it wouldn't explain culpability in cases where Jesus Himself causes sinners to suffer and die. Or, would you argue the same logic, that is, Jesus isn't culpable because sinners force Him to kill them?

[Archie777]

A: Ellen wrote: Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4} Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old--perfect obedience. {AG 136.6}

P: This can be easily misunderstood.

Do you agree Jesus required perfect obedience under both the NC and the OC?

Or, do you believe experiencing perfect obedience is possible under the NC but not under the OC?

If so, do you believe being under the NC exempted Jews from obeying and observing the rules and regulations required under the OC?

[karl]

Righteousness is obtained as the publican obtained it, not by means of what the Pharisee did.

I'm bumping this one.

Gem.

[pnattmbtc]

I hear you saying David was culpable but Jesus isn't because sinners "cause" Him to withdraw His protection.

[pnattmbtc]

A: Ellen wrote: Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4} Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old--perfect obedience. {AG 136.6}

P: This can be easily misunderstood.

A:Do you agree Jesus required perfect obedience under both the NC and the OC?

[Robert]

Obedience to whom; to God.

Jesus "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself"! Can you say the same sitting in your nice home, with the green stuff in your bank? No! Why not? It took a lot of self-seeking and self-love to get you where you are at. Jesus never gave over to our bent to self....Therefore He fulfilled the law.....You and I, although we grow, aren't measuring up. Therefore we cannot be saved by our works.....Who are you kidding?

[Robert]

Robert, think of it this way. If you don't love God or the principles of His government (aka agape), you wouldn't be happy in heaven.

So you never think of self?

EGW (again): "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[Robert]

Bent to self, what does it mean?

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5]. Our next study will cover this in greater detail.

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4].

* Matthew 7:22, 23. Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him? [see also Luke 13:25-28.]

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Obedience to whom; to God.

R:Jesus "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself"! Can you say the same sitting in your nice home, with the green stuff in your bank? No! Why not? It took a lot of self-seeking and self-love to get you where you are at. Jesus never gave over to our bent to self....Therefore He fulfilled the law.....You and I, although we grow, aren't measuring up. Therefore we cannot be saved by our works.....Who are you kidding?

I wrote this:

Quote:

Robert, think of it this way. If you don't love God or the principles of His government (aka agape), you wouldn't be happy in heaven. We need to be transformed so that we are in harmony with God and His principles. This is what being justified is all about; being set right with God.

Do you not agree with this? I really don't see how your response relates to what I wrote.