"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Nope, she's right.

Really? Which one is right?

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26.

[Robert]

God says that Job is a blameless man, one who is upright, and hates evil.

What is it that you believe God is telling us?

God is presenting Job to Satan as Job sees himself. This is self-evident because, as Elihu says, Job justified himself before God instead of God justifying Job in the promise of the coming Messiah.

Those who represent their own righteousness in the judgment will be found wanting....None of us can justify ourselves before the law because none are measuring up (see Rom 3:23/1 John 1:8). However, those who allow Christ to justify them in Himself will be accepted in the Beloved.

[pnattmbtc]

This is the same as Scripture. For example, consider James.

Obedience is only possible by faith, and faith always leads to obedience.

[Robert]

Obedience is only possible by faith, and faith always leads to obedience.

Obedience to what?

[pnattmbtc]

What does James say?

[Archie777]

Pnatt, thank you for sharing what make sense to you as it relates to points I shared regarding the two covenants and the final judgment. We seem to be on opposites sides of the point.

Robert, when you asked me to comment on what I thought Ellen meant I assumed allowing her to speak for herself would be helpful. To be clear, my thoughts are not original. That they happen to coincide with what Ellen wrote is not an accident. More often than not I conform to inspiration.

[Archie777]

Archie: The terms, conditions of the NC are the same as the OC, namely, obey and live; disobey and die. The main difference between the two covenants is the promises upon which they are founded. "The 'new covenant' was established upon 'better promises' - the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law." (ibid)

John317: The Ten Commandments are the same in both covenants. God still requires perfect obedience, perfect righteousness. The standards are not lowered under the New Covenant. The difference in who makes the promises: under the NC, it is God who makes the promise. Under the OC, it was the people who promised. So the promises are better under the NC.

Pnatt: Yes! Well said.

[pnattmbtc]

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To be clear, my thoughts are not original.

They certainly are!

[pnattmbtc]

Did Jesus expect the Jews to obey and observe the precepts and principles required under the OC?

[pnattmbtc]

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Pnatt: Another point is that the OC was initiated by the people, because of their unbelief, and not be God.

A:Again, the purpose of the OC was to help the Jews understand, appreciate, and experience the blessings of the NC. The two covenants worked hand-in-hand. They were not at odds or in opposition. Nothing required under the OC violated anything required under the NC. Admittedly, though, obeying and observing all the rites and ceremonies required under the OC could be, at times, tedious and burdensome. Even the requirement to slay sacrificial animals under the Adamic, Noahic, and Abrahamic versions of the NC was, at times, inconvenient. It is so much easier, this side of the cross, to simply observe baptism and communion.

I'd suggest taking a look at "The Gospel in Galatians" by E. J. Waggoner. You're taking the positions of Butler, in his work "The Law in Galatians."

This pamphlet was passed out by E. J. Waggoner to the delegates at the 1888 General Conference session, and Waggoner's ideas were endorsed by EGW. A number of things you're saying are actually the arguments which Butler was making.

The following site has both pamphlets:

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/1888/waggonerbutler_twolaws3.html

[pnattmbtc]

The difference is in who makes the promises: under the NC, it is God who makes the promise. Under the OC, it was the people who promised. So the promises are better under the NC.

R:This is legalism with a new face....What you are suggesting is that we are saved by what God does in us....Does this answer the law? If so what is your excuse for not living Christ's life of complete selflessness?

How can you possibly construe God making promises to us as legalism?

[pnattmbtc]

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

What is this?

[Archie777]

Pnatt, during prayer this morning it occurred to me to ask you about King David. As you know, he withdrew his protection and permitted Uriah to be killed. Most people hold King David accountable for Uriah's death even though he did not directly kill him.

Do you agree King David was culpable for Uriah's death? If so, do you also agree Jesus is culpable for those who die when He withdraws His protection?

[skyblue888]

Here is something even more clear from the pen of Waggoner about the ten words spoken on Sinai--not engraved on stones but spoken:

"That same word that spoke the universe into existence, which said to the earth, 'Bring forth grass,' speaks to us in the words of God's law. But His law is not a harsh, lifeless decree, which weak mortals are to strive in vain to keep, while God watches them with a stern eye ready to taunt and punish them for failure; but we 'know that His commandment is life everlasting.' John 12:50. That word which says to us, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself,' sheds that love abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit just as the word of God brings forth the fruit in the plant. Then well may we sing:

'How gentle God's commands!

How kind His precepts are!'" The Gospel in Creation, p.103,104.

It is so unless we interpose an evil heart of unbelief.

sky

[Archie777]

Pnatt, I'm not sure I understand your point. It sounds like you're saying the NC consists of God promising to pardon and save penitent sinners through Jesus. Also, what is not clear to me is whether or not you believe born-again believers are required, under the NC, to live in harmony with the 10Cs, to be like Jesus. When you say our part of the NC is to "believe" what does such belief entail? Does it include obedience? Does God expect "perfect obedience" under the terms and conditions of the NC?

Ellen wrote: Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4} Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old--perfect obedience. {AG 136.6}

[Guest]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jas 1:22 But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm? Sounds like you believe God actually made a mistake so He changed His plans. And all this time I thought God does not change??

[pnattmbtc]

Pnatt, during prayer this morning it occurred to me to ask you about King David. As you know, he withdrew his protection and permitted Uriah to be killed. Most people hold King David accountable for Uriah's death even though he did not directly kill him.

Do you agree King David was culpable for Uriah's death? If so, do you also agree Jesus is culpable for those who die when He withdraws His protection?

[pnattmbtc]

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Pnatt, I'm not sure I understand your point. It sounds like you're saying the NC consists of God promising to pardon and save penitent sinners through Jesus.

That's a big part of it. It encompasses everything promised in the Plan of Salvation. It's the inheritance promised to Abraham. Quoting a section from the quote just cited from Waggoner:

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That the covenant and promise of God are one and the same thing, is clearly seen from Gal.3:17, where it appears that to disannul the covenant would be to make void the promise. In Genesis 17 we read that God made a covenant with Abraham to give him the land of Canaan--and with it the whole world--for an everlasting possession; but Gal.3:18 says that God gave it to him by promise. God's covenants with men can be nothing else than promises to them: "Who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things." Rom.11:35,36.

Covenant = promise.

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Also, what is not clear to me is whether or not you believe born-again believers are required, under the NC, to live in harmony with the 10Cs, to be like Jesus.

Righteousness = obedience to the law. Again, from Waggoner:

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The commandments are righteousness, not simply in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God. For proof read the following:

Lift up your eyes to the heavens and look upon the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but my salvation shall be forever and my righteousness shall not be abolished. Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." Isa. 51:6,7.

What do we learn from this? That they who know the righteousness of God are those in whose heart is His law, and therefore that the law of God is the righteousness of God.

This may be proved again, as follows: "All unrighteousness is sin." 1 John 5:17. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness; therefore sin and unrighteousness are identical. But if unrighteousness is transgression of the law, righteousness must be obedience to the law. Or, to put the proposition into mathematical form:

Unrighteousness = sin. 1 John 5:17. Transgression of the law = sin. 1 John 3:4.

Therefore, according to the axiom that two things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other, we have: Unrighteousness = transgression of the law

...which is a negative equation. The same thing, stated in positive terms, would be: Righteousness = obedience to the law. (Christ and His Righteousness)

So receiving the righteousness of God by faith in Christ makes one obedient to the law, which was a key point in Jones and Waggoner's teaching of righteousness by faith.

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." The key thing is to get the righteousness is the heart, and this is what believing in Christ (aka being born again) does.

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When you say our part of the NC is to "believe" what does such belief entail?

Here's a good description:

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How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. {DA 175.5}

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Does it include obedience? Does God expect "perfect obedience" under the terms and conditions of the NC?

Yes. "Righteousness" means "obedience to the law" so "righteousness by faith" means "obedience to the law by faith."

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Ellen wrote: Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4} Under the new covenant, the conditions by which eternal life may be gained are the same as under the old--perfect obedience. {AG 136.6}

This can be easily misunderstood. Since Ellen White said that Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith, and endorsed his view of the covenants as clear and convincing, as well as saying that anyone looking to produce a view different than his would be "spending his investigative powers for naught", starting with what Waggoner wrote seems like a good idea. Certainly we wouldn't want to use Ellen White to produce a view different than Waggoner's, which would by really "spending our investigative powers for naught," as well as being ironic.

[pnattmbtc]

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Hmmm? Sounds like you believe God actually made a mistake so He changed His plans. And all this time I thought God does not change??

I don't know what this is in reference to, but it said "Re:pnattmbct," so I'll respond.

God's plans are the same, which is to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible by winning the Great Controversy. How this can be accomplished most expediently depends upon the reactions of His creatures, who have free will, so God is constantly adjusting to them.

[Robert]

What does James say?

Quote please....

[Robert]

How can you possibly construe God making promises to us as legalism?

Because we are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, period. If you add what He does in you then what He already accomplished is incomplete. That is what Paul terms "another gospel".

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-07

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

What is this?

Self-evident, right?

[Robert]

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

[maric777]

i am on the side of those who propose the new perspective on paul, like mr. J. G. Dunn and Wright, theirs look on righteousnes by faith is more objective to the teaching of the bible on that point. And sister E. G. White wrote that "righteousness by faith is (lifelong) experience", and "the three angels messages are messages of righteousness by faith". So as a consequence R. by F. is not sort of some legal transaction or the like, or the status change, it is more deeply relational an with broader issues.