"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

Quote:

ROBERT: [Job] "The LORD has given, and the LORD has taken away!"

[Messenger] "Fire from God fell from heaven...

Keep in mind, Pnattmbtc, that John has told us that Job's messenger is uninspired and therefore what he stated can't be trusted,

Was the messenger in Job 1: 16 inspired? Had God given him any special revelation?

Quote:

ROBERT: but what John fails to realize is that Job attributes these same evils to God.

Job doesn't know about the conversation between the Satan and God. The reader knows but Job does not, yet he refuses to curse God and die. Instead, Job says that even if God were to slay him, he would remain loyal to God. That must also be our attitude. Job is wrong about the reason for the deaths of his children. That's a well-known fact about the book of Job. All Job really knows is that he is *innocent and that God isn't punishing him for his sins. In this, Job is right. He knows nothing of Satan's temptations to get Job to curse God.

*(Job is innocent in the sense that he didn't commit the sins that his friends say he did in order for God to punish him. Observe that Job acknowledges in 7: 21 and 13: 26 that he is a sinful human being.)

QUESTION:

Is it true that real fire fell from God out of heaven and consumed the sacrifices in answer to Elijah's prayer? See 1 Kings 18: 38 (compaare v. 24).

How about Lev. 9: 24? Are those literal fires that came from the Lord?

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: The 2nd time around Satan physically assaults Job:

Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. ... 9 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!" 10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

What does it mean by "Job did not sin"? Go back to Job chapter 1:

[satan to God] "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face"

Did Job curse God? No!

Job's 3 friends didn't help....They were essentially stating the same thing, "God is punishing you because of some secret sin"....

You are right in everything except here:

You wrote: "But he was wrong about God's character. How? He was attributing these evils unto God. This had taken him down the road of legalism, which is nothing more then appeasing an angry God in order to receive paradise."

1) God never found fault with Job. On the contrary, God said that Job had spoken of God what was right.

2) Job never accused God of unrighteousness.

3) Job knew that he hadn't done anything deserve the suffering he was going through. In this he was right, and his friends were wrong.

4) Job never attributed evil to God. On the contrary, Job always maintained that God is righteous and good. He said that no matter what God did, he would always remain loyal to him.

5) God is not evil for allowing innocent people to suffer.

6) God wants us to love and trust Him for who He is, not for what He does.

7) It is not for us humans to instruct God in what He should do. Our part is simply to trust Him because He knows everything and has already proven His love for us as well as His power to take care of us.

[Robert]

I happen to believe Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself at His incarnation.

[Robert]

their worm dieth not

Okay, I couldn't find "the worm of life", but what you have is close....Still, what does that mean?

[Robert]

Numbers 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Right, I know it says "the Lord", but it wasn't His expressed will. Read Gal 3:10....

[Robert]

Quote:

ROBERT: but what John fails to realize is that Job attributes these same evils to God.

Quote:

John: The reader knows but Job does not, yet he refuses to curse God and die.

Doesn't matter, John. He is placing the blame for his problems on God just as his uninspired servant did, just as his 3 friends did and, last but not least, just as you do.

[Robert]

1) God never found fault with Job. On the contrary, God said that Job had spoken of God what was right.

[Guest]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against you, and against your two friends: for you have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job has.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert:

The idea presented by John and others is that God can do as He pleases when it comes to justice. Of course what they fail to realize is that justice and torture are mutually exclusive.

Everything God does is right and just. It isn't because he does what we like or what we think He should do. He is right even if He does what many humans think is wrong. Humans don't decide what is right; God does.

Many humans think it's evil that God commanded Israel to annihilate the Canaanites and other nations around them. But that doesn't mean God was wrong to do what the Bible says He did. See Joshua 11: 15; 10: 21-14.

What may appear to be "torture" to you is not torture but retributive justice, which the Bible calls "recompense" or "the execution of justice." "Recompense" is another word for "reward" or "repayment" or "payback." It's a necessary part of justice. It wouldn't be justice for the wicked to die in their sleep. God will inflict punishment in strict justice, just as He did on Sodom. (See 12 MR 207-209)

The Bible says in Jude 7 that Sodom is an example of what will happen to the wicked at the end of time. What happened at Sodom? Did the citizens all get into a big fight and slay one another in an orgy of mayhem and murder? Or did eternal fire come down from God out of heaven and utterly destroy the whole city? See answer at Gen. 19: 24, 28, 29.

God's justice and God's love are both equally essential aspects of God's character. It's impossible to have the one without the other. If we think that His love means He won't repay the wicked for the deeds they did in the body, then we don't have a correct understanding of God's character or of His dealings with His subjects.

For this reason, Ellen White says, "... leave to the Lord to deal with the work of His hands according to His own wise purposes... God's method of dealing with sin is not in harmony with the views cherished by a large class who occupy a prominent position among he professed followers of Christ. Many of these men cherish sin, and laud the benevolence and long-suffering of God, and dwell upon the loving character of Jesus,-- all mercy, all tenderness,-- while they pass over the threatenings of God's wrath against sin and sinners, and our Saviour's scathing denunciations of hypocrisy and self-deception. It is those who have not a keen sense of the exceeding sinfulness of sin and are ready to question the justice of God in punishing with such severity the sins of the Amalekites, Canaanites, and Midianites. Those who love sin are unable to comprehend God's dealings with His subjects...

"... God is merciful and compassionate, but He is also just. Let the cross of Calvary forever settle this matter. As surely as Christ, the guiltless, suffered for the guilty, so surely will the wrath of God fall upon the heads of those who persist in their transgression of His law." ST Jan. 6, 1881

[John317]

Quote:

John317: 1) God never found fault with Job. On the contrary, God said that Job had spoken of God what was right.

Quote:

ROBERT: That is a lie.

A lie, of course, is an attempt to decieve.

That is different from having a wrong understanding of Scripture. I believe you are wrong but I do not accuse you of lying. To tell someone on the Forum they are lying means that you believe you can read their motives or that you have good evidence that they are intending to decieve.

OK, so you believe I'm wrong (or lying) here. You believe God found fault with Job and that God did not say that Job had spoken of God what was right.

Please show your evidence and reasoning for believing that God found fault with Job.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: 3) Job knew that he hadn't done anything deserve the suffering he was going through. In this he was right, and his friends were wrong.

Quote:

ROBERT: The legalistic Jews could say the same. In fact they too claimed to be blameless like Paul before his conversion: "As to the righteousness in the law, blameless.

But Job wasn't like the legalistic Jews.

The book is clear as to Job's meaning. He did not deny that he was a sinner like all humans. He admits at least twice in the book that he has committed sins in his lifetime. So that is not the issue.

The issue is whether Job has committed a sin for which God is punishing him. Job's three friends say that Job must have committed such a sin because it seems obvious to them that God is punishing him. Job knows this is not true, and in this Job is right and his friends are wrong. Job is an example of a righteous man who suffers and does not know why. He's not suffering for his sins. But that's not the same as saying he's not sinful. He was sinful, of course.

When it says that Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil," it isn't claiming that Job is without sin. It's saying Job was a good man, had integrity and could be trusted to do what is right. One of the lessons of the book is that God knew He could trust Job, and Job proved God right.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert:

Job attributed his calamity to God..."the lord takes away." Takes what away? His servants, his animals, even his own children. He puts the blame on God....To this Job is guilty.

We should be able to say the same thing. We know that God allows many evils to exist in the world. God does not directly cause the judgments that are coming at this time on the earth, but He certainly does allow them, obviously. And when our loved ones die in some horrible way, we can also say, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." That doesn't mean we believe God is the one who killed our loved ones. What we are saying by those words is that if we accept life and blessings from God, we can praise Him for what He takes away from us-- i.e., what He allows to happen. In all things we can do as Job did and give praise and glory to God. Right now I am going through terrible pain in my feet and in my legs. Every moment is terribly painful-- feels like bees are stinging me all the time-- but I am praising God for even the pain, because it draws me closer to Him as I pray and think of Him and of what He has done during my lifetime. (I'm praying the doctors will be given wisdom so they will know what's causing the pain and be able to stop it. Hoping!!!)

[Robert]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

God is presenting Job to Satan as Job views himself. You have to read the context of the whole chapter of Job or you will go off the deep in, kind of like John has.

[Robert]

Humans don't decide what is right; God does.

Hypocrites say do as I say, not as I do....Your views make God a hypocrite. God is the author of agape...agape doesn't hurt a neighbor. Sorry you can't see this? Perhaps your image of God has blinded you....You become what you dwell on and we all know you dwell on a sadistic God....

[Robert]

"The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." That doesn't mean we believe God is the one who killed our loved ones.

We aren't talking about what we believe...we are talking of what Job believed and he made that statement after his servants, animals and children had been wiped out. It's just that simple.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The facts are, Pnatt, you agree Jesus must supernaturally prevent sinners from dying the instant they sin. Unless, of course, you have changed your mind. Have you?

I've never put things this way.

Quote:

You also believe Jesus will resurrect them and once again supernaturally keep them alive during final judgment. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact they will not immediately die in consequence of the natural and inevitable result of sin?

I haven't said this either.

The SOP says that if we have to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.

Quote:

We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.(MB 116)

I've said that in the judgment the wicked will have to bear their own guilt, and it will crush them. I've also quoted DA 764, which says that if God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would perish. She explains that God could not have let this happen in the beginning, because it would not have been understood that death is the inevitable result of sin. That is, it would have appeared that there death was due to "an arbitrary act of power of God" as opposed to "the result of their own choice."

Quote:

Do you think they naturally possess the ability to live with sin without dying?

They don't naturally possess the ability to live at all. Life comes from God. Once again, the same passage from DA 764 illuminates the situation:

Quote:

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

Quote:

More sin means more time alive? How does that work? What will prevent them from dying after they pay their sin debt of death for their first sin? What enables them to live long enough to pay for the rest of their many sins?

Who sinned the most? Satan, right? Are we told that long after the others have passed, Satan is still alive?

[Robert]

The issue is whether Job has committed a sin for which God is punishing him.

Job was deluded...his sin was self-righteousness. Elihu stated this correctly....God agreed.

Job viewed God as one who inflicts pain on His enemies....

[Guest]

Quote:

God is presenting Job to Satan as Job views himself.

Where does it say that in the Bible? Anytime you come upon something you don't like, you just spiritualize it away, and kill it off. And as long as you see nothing wrong with that method of Bible study, then there is not one truth in the whole Bible that can stand in the way of you believing whatever you want to believe.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook (quoting): Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Quote:

ROBERT: God is presenting Job to Satan as Job views himself. You have to read the context of the whole chapter of Job or you will go off the deep in, kind of like John has.

Read the whole chapter? Must do more, like read the whole book several times in various translations.

Robert, if Job is not as the narrator and God both say he is, then the book loses much of its purpose. A major theme of the book is to illustrate the suffering of the truly righteous. It's not an example of the suffering of the self-righteous and of hypocrites.

Aside from Jack Sequiera, I don't know of a single commentator on the book of Job who says that both the writer and God are merely presenting Job to Satan as Job sees himself and that Job is actually just a self-righteous man who needs to understand that he's a great sinner. That's ridiculous. There's absolutely no evidence for that viewpoint. The narrator himself-- who can be trusted to tell the truth-- says that Job is exactly as God declares him to be. In fact, the rest of the story is written in order to prove God right in what he said about Job.

[pnattmbtc]

Doesn't matter, John. He is placing the blame for his problems on God just as his uninspired servant did, just as his 3 friends did and, last but not least, just as you do.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: Doesn't matter, John. He is placing the blame for his problems on God just as his uninspired servant did, just as his 3 friends did and, last but not least, just as you do.

No, I don't put the blame on God.

The Bible does not put the blame on God for the final destruction of the wicked. They are themselves to blame, but God does destroy both body and soul of the wicked in the fire of gehenna. Yet by their choices the wicked destroy themselves spiritually before that point.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Not to mention God Himself:

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job holds fast to his integrity even though he doesn't understand what happened. He trusts God no matter what. That must be our attitude, too, instead of saying that if God actively destroys the wicked, we won't worship Him. That's really declaring that we think our own reasoning is able to determine what God should do in His dealings with His subjects.

The words of God, "you incited Me against him, to destroy him [Heb. 'swallow him up'] without cause" (Job 2: 3),means, "you're trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason," or "you were trying to influence me to wipe him out for nothing."

[Robert]

Quote:

God is presenting Job to Satan as Job views himself.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

You get this by reading the whole of the book of Job; not just a verse here or there.....Do you need help?

Rob

[Guest]

In other words, it isn't in the Bible. I see. I think you're the one who needs help.

[Robert]

I don't know of a single commentator on the book of Job who says that both the writer and God are merely presenting Job to Satan as Job sees himself and that Job is actually just a self-righteous man who needs to understand that he's a great sinner. That's ridiculous. There's absolutely no evidence for that viewpoint.

No, your version is ridiculous!

[Robert]

In other words, it isn't in the Bible.

No, I said it is in the book of Job...all of it and not that one little quote. You guys can't or don't want to see this because you are much like Job before God corrected him.

[Robert]

TU