"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[karl]

If I understand your view of the atonement correctly, you don't believe in the penal viewpoint. Yet your view of the final judgment, as I understand it (I could well be wrong in my understanding of your view; I hope this is the case) sounds penal, not in harmony with your view of the atonement. (Interestingly, Robert's on the other side of you on both of these questions, if I'm understanding your view correctly).

I really have no axe to grind in this except that I see some, maybe not you, trying to exonerate God from responsibility for the termination of the wicked.

Since He is the Source of life, He is responsible for people having, or not having, life. They can choose to reject it, but He must cut it off.

I have not a clue of the mechanism by which eternal fire will consume the wicked. I do not understand a great deal about God, not the least of which is how He can exist in other dimension(s) which can interact with our three but without our having ANY means of detecting anything in that/those other dimension(s.)

So, if He says the destruction of the wicked will be like the example of His destruction of Sodom, I have to believe Him. I also have to understand that I don't really know the exact mechanism by which Sodom was torched.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

I really have no axe to grind in this except that I see some, maybe not you, trying to exonerate God from responsibility for the termination of the wicked.

I don't think God needs exonerating; He's not responsible for their fate.

Quote:

The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542.2)

Quote:

Since He is the Source of life, He is responsible for people having, or not having, life. They can choose to reject it, but He must cut it off.

EGW put it that they "cut themselves off from life." That's how I think of it as well. It's something they choose, and something they do. God have given people the ability to do this. He has chosen to share His sovereignty.

Quote:

I have not a clue of the mechanism by which eternal fire will consume the wicked. I do not understand a great deal about God, not the least of which is how He can exist in other dimension(s) which can interact with our three but without our having ANY means of detecting anything in that/those other dimension(s.)

How do you know these things are true? (about the dimensions). Regarding not understanding a great deal about God, I agree that we're like children in kindergarten, if that.

Quote:

So, if He says the destruction of the wicked will be like the example of His destruction of Sodom, I have to believe Him. I also have to understand that I don't really know the exact mechanism by which Sodom was torched.

Ok.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

When He commisions holy angels... yes He does and here is how:

"He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" RH Vol.4, 335.

This is what it means for God to "commission" or "bid" holy angels to destroy.

Your quote above is not describing the final destruction of the wicked. It is describing the time of trouble.

Below are some other quotes you may wish to consider:

In the rocks and mountains are registered the fact that God did destroy the wicked from off the earth by a flood.... The long-lived antediluvians were swept from the earth because they made void the divine law. God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above.

But the world's intricate machinery is running under the Lord's supervision. Hurricanes, threatening to break forth, are held under control by the regulations of the One who is the Protector of the trembling ones that fear God and keep His commandments. The Lord holds back the tempestuous winds. He will not suffer them to go forth on their death-mission of vengeance until His servants are sealed in their foreheads.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. The great mass of the world will reject God's mercy, and will be overwhelmed in swift and irretrievable ruin.

When David heard the tidings of the death of Nabal, he gave thanks that God had taken vengeance into His own hands. He had been restrained from evil, and the Lord had returned the wickedness of the wicked upon his own head. In this dealing of God with Nabal and David, men may be encouraged to put their cases into the hands of God; for in His own good time He will set matters right.

....yet God spared them, for the full measure of guilt marking them for his vengeance, had not been reached. The iniquity of the Amorites must reach its fullness before God would send forth his mandate to destroy utterly.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold I will destroy them with the earth." But though men were so wicked, God would not destroy them without warning. "My Spirit shall not always strive with man," He said, "yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." During this period of probation the message of warning given to Noah was to sound in their ears.

Their last night is marked by no greater sins than many others before it. But mercy, so long rejected, ceases at last her pleadings. The fires of divine vengeance are kindled in the vale of Siddim. The beautiful but guilty Sodom becomes a desolation, a place never to be built up or inhabited.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 7.

The final judgment is exactly what it is, a judgment and the judgments of God DO NOT come directly out from the Lord upon the disobedient but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. The language used for the final judgment is the same used throughout the Bible and it always means the same thing for God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Mark these words with care. In the final judgment it will be seen that the fire spoken of in Revelation 20:9 will not come directly out from the Lord upon Satan and his followers any more than strong delusions were sent directly out from the Lord to those who didn't receive the love of the truth or anymore than fiery serpents were sent direclty out from the Lord to the Isrealites in the wilderness of sin.

sky

[karl]

Mark these words with care. In the final judgment it will be seen that the fire spoken of in Revelation 20:9 will not come directly out from the Lord upon Satan and his followers any more than strong delusions were sent directly out from the Lord to those who didn't receive the love of the truth or anymore than fiery serpents were sent direclty out from the Lord to the Isrealites in the wilderness of sin.

sky

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath. But the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy; for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, . . . Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgement; seek righteousness, seek meekness. It may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

Who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap.

The people of Israel, because of their sinfulness, were forbidden to approach the mount when God was about to descend upon it to proclaim His law, lest they should be consumed by the burning glory of His presence. If such manifestations of His power marked the place chosen for the proclamation of God's law, how terrible must be His tribunal when He comes for the execution of these sacred statutes. How will those who have trampled upon His authority endure His glory in the great day of final retribution?

Then are fulfilled the words of the prophet: "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." [iSA. 34:2.] "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." [PS. 11:6. MARGIN.] Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. [MAL. 4:1.] The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [2 PETER 3:10.] The fire of Tophet is "prepared for the king," the chief of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and "the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." [iSA. 30:33.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men, --"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion."

In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,-- Satan the root, his followers the branches. The justice of God is satisfied, and the saints and all the angelic host say with a loud voice, Amen. {4SP 488.1}

While the earth is wrapped in the fire of God's vengeance, the righteous abide safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [REV. 20:6.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [PS. 84:11.]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's the author of "light on the dark side of God":

Ethical Problems

No authority or measuring stick.

No, but the authority she uses is the Bible....So it's Bible, John.

[Robert]

Quote:

Robert: Reconcile these John, I can't:

"This is what the LORD God of Israel says: Each of you put on your sword. Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, and kill your relatives, friends, and neighbors."

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven.

Discuss these verses and tell what happened.

No! I'm telling you to reconcile the above. Can you?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If I am near a river of lava flow and I fall in it I'll be dead in about 20 sec....The same for the wicked, unless God supernaturally keeps them alive....rejuvenates their bodies every few seconds so that they can feel it again again.

It's difficult to believe that people seriously consider this to be possible.

Precisely.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark these words with care. In the final judgment it will be seen that the fire spoken of in Revelation 20:9 will not come directly out from the Lord upon Satan and his followers any more than strong delusions were sent directly out from the Lord to those who didn't receive the love of the truth or anymore than fiery serpents were sent direclty out from the Lord to the Isrealites in the wilderness of sin.

sky

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath. But the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy; for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, . . . Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgement; seek righteousness, seek meekness. It may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

Who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap.

The people of Israel, because of their sinfulness, were forbidden to approach the mount when God was about to descend upon it to proclaim His law, lest they should be consumed by the burning glory of His presence. If such manifestations of His power marked the place chosen for the proclamation of God's law, how terrible must be His tribunal when He comes for the execution of these sacred statutes. How will those who have trampled upon His authority endure His glory in the great day of final retribution?

Then are fulfilled the words of the prophet: "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter." [iSA. 34:2.] "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." [PS. 11:6. MARGIN.] Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. [MAL. 4:1.] The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [2 PETER 3:10.] The fire of Tophet is "prepared for the king," the chief of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and "the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." [iSA. 30:33.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men, --"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion."

In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,-- Satan the root, his followers the branches. The justice of God is satisfied, and the saints and all the angelic host say with a loud voice, Amen. {4SP 488.1}

While the earth is wrapped in the fire of God's vengeance, the righteous abide safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [REV. 20:6.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [PS. 84:11.]

carl

_______________________________________

Carl, the language of Heaven is a strange language to many of us. We the professed people of God have no more discernment than did the professed people of God in Old Testament times all the way through the Dark Ages until our day.

Many read these statements with a veil--the cloud that obscures His glory from their view--just as Elijah and John the Baptist did and the disciples of Christ. All of these saw God in a false light. They expected that the Messiah would reveal Himself as a God that aswereth by fire. See D.A.215.

God blinked at their ignorance but in these last days we have no excuse, for "At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

So in the night of spiritual darkness, God's Word goes forth, "Let there be light!" To His people, those who have received this precious light of truth, He says, "Rise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon you." Isaiah 60:1.

No power on earth or in hell can stop this message from being proclaimed. The truth will triumph.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, it was "someone," a good way to put it.

It was an uninspired man who had no idea of what it really was. God did not reveal anything to him, did He? Did He know anything about the conversation between God and the Satan, for instance? No.

[pnattmbtc]

Karl, did you read what I posted from Ty regarding fire? I think I'll repost it.

[Guest]

Noooooooooooooooo! NO MORE TY!!!

[pnattmbtc]

(primarily for Karl)

When Moses reminded Israel of when God gave them His holy law, he said of the Lord, “He shined ... from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people” (Deuteronomy 33:2, 3). “And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel” (Exodus 24:17). “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire” (Deuteronomy 4:24). Paul made the same kind of parallel between God and fire: “Our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29).

We are not to conclude from such texts that God is composed in nature of literal fire. But rather, as Moses said, his glory is “like devouring fire . . . in the eyes” of human beings. God’s law is fiery; His glory is like a devouring fire; and His love is like an unquenchable fire. In what sense? In that the righteousness of God’s character of love stands in distinct contrast to our sinful selfishness.

The use of the words consuming and devouring indicate the reality that God’s righteous love not only exposes sin, it destroys it like darkness vanishes before the greater power of light. God’s love is wholly incompatible with sin. Whenever the two meet in close proximity, the lesser is consumed by the greater. With unrelenting passion, love devours all that is sinful an selfish. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire by virtue of who and what He is in character.

It is for this very reason that God has hidden Himself behind the subduing veil that is Christ. In Jesus we see the sunlight, as it were, without looking directly into the sun; we see the attractive beauty of God’s character in bearable splendor, without having to face the full brilliance of divine glory before we can survive it. As we come to know God in Christ, the heat of His glorious love slowly turned up to consume away our sin with merciful, healing gentleness. As we see Him more and more clearly, we see ourselves in ugly contrast with progressive clarity as well. With each sensitizing revelation we have the opportunity to dive deeper into the flame, to be “washed . . . by the spirit [the mental process[ of judgment [discernment] and by the spirit of burning” (Isaiah 4:4, NKJV). “The path of the just is like the shining sun, shat shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18, NKJV).” “’For He is like a refiner’s fire and like launderer’s soap’” (Malachi 3:2, NKJV).

Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJV). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.

The love of which Solomon speaks—strong as death, relentless as the grave, and as unquenchable as the fire of God’s glory—was manifested in Christ. At Gethsemane and Calvary we behold God’s love put to the severest test and emerging from the fire victorious over the law of sin and death. In a word, the sufferings of Jesus consisted of a raw encounter with reality. He entered into the uncharted realm of total truth, both about God and about fallen mankind. He experienced perfect consciousness of God’s holy love in contrast to our sinful selfishness.

In His mind and heart He faced, with painful acuity, the full reality of human wickedness being consumed by the holiness of God. When the two realities reached their zenith point in His consciousness, they clashed for the mastery, and God’s love was victorious. He chose to resist “the law of sin and death” and to keep tight hold of the principle of selfless love. Sinful humanity died in the death of Christ and an entirely new humanity emerged triumphant over sin an drenched in the blood of relentless love.

(Ty Gibson)

[karl]

(

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJV). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.

Yes, I agree.

Love Ty Gibson

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Noooooooooooooooo! NO MORE TY!!!

Your favorite! (By special request)

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: John, a large weakness I see in your presentation of things is there is not consideration of God's character, the cross of Christ, the principles of God's government, the nature of sin, or the issues of the Great Controversy, all things the SOP says we need to understand in order to interpret Scripture correctly.

Quote:

BobRyan:The weakness I see in the position that flatly denies what both the Bible and Ellen White say about the 2nd death- is that it denies both the character of God as "just" and as "truthful", it argues against the character of God as "wise" and "loving" if God dares to make good on His Word - and it turns a blind eye to the "solution of God" for the Universe and for all eternity in carrying out a sentence that ENDS sin instead of subjecting his universe to the "I don't care" solution that just prolongs the horrible pain and suffering of sin as it mindlessly rambles on endlessly, until it finally fizzles out on it's own.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: It's difficult to respond to a post like this because it's so vituperative

Where did Bob Ryan vituperate? Please point out the lines in the above quote which are vituperative. I frequently respond to vituperative posts. One must sometimes just ignore the vituperativeness. But honestly, I don't see in his post where Bob vituperates.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: and disorganized, as well as embedded with false assumptions. However, I'll address a couple of points. One is you have the assumption that God must take direct action to end sin, or else it won't end. This assumes that sin is innocuous.

The fact that the Bible portrays God as taking direct action against sin and sinners does not imply that sin is innocuous. Of course sin is not innocuous-- although, as the Bible itself shows, sin may frequently appear that way. The Bible teaches that people suffer naturally the consequences of sin, but it also teaches that God punishes sinners for their sins because our sins are primarily against God and against His righteousness. That is one of the main reasons for the Judgment.

You still do not appear to have grasped or accepted the statements by Ellen White that during the one thousand years, Jesus decides the punishment of the wicked and metes out to them the portion they MUST suffer. Why must they suffer this punishment? Because they are charged with high treason and rebellion against God and against the law of the universe. The wicked do not merely suffer the natural consequences of their sins but they MUST suffer the punishment of their guilt. It is this punishment for their guilt that is decided by Christ and the righteous during the 1000 years after they study the lives of the wicked, comparing them with the law of God. See 4 SP 364

Can you see the difference, then, between suffering the consequences of sin and being found guilty of sin and suffering punishment for violating the law? They are not one and the same thing. Justice requires that criminals be punished. Many criminals, or sinners, never suffer the natural consequences of their crimes, or sins. The Bible itself talks about this. Books such as Psalms, Proverbs, Job, and Habakkuk probe the justice of the wicked's apparent prosperity while the righteous often suffer. Malachi 3: 17 to 4: 3 gives us the answer to that question. At the Judgment people will see clearly the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, a difference that is often hard to see beforehand. That distinction will be made clear in the rewards each receives.

The reward for the wicked is not the natural consequences of sin but one that is accorded the sinner on the basis of his deeds. As the Bible declares, "'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. For the day which is coming shall burn them up,' says the Lord of hosts. '... You [the righteous] shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,' says the Lord of hosts."

Notice the above is something that the Lord does. It is punishment and judgment upon the wicked, not a natural consequence of their sins, but a positive judgment from a holy and just God who punishes sin and sinners directly on account of their having violated and rebelled against His justice. Such positive penalties are found, for instance, in Exodus 20 to 23: "Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them... He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death... Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed..."

As has been pointed out before, there are sins which have no apparent natural consequences in this life. These include such sins as sabbath-breaking and homosexuality, etc. There is no pain or suffering inflicted now because of these misdeeds. However, justice requires the punishment of transgressor against God's holy law. Back of the law stands God, and therefore it may also be said that punishment aims at the vindication of the righeousness and holiness of the great Lawgiver. The holiness of God necessarily reacts against sin, and this reaction manifests itself in the punishment of sin. This principle is fundamental to all those passages of Scripture that speak of God as a righteous Judge, who renders unto every person according to his/her deeds. "Thou renderest to every man according to his work." Ps. 62: 12. "Righteous art thou, O Lord, and upright are thy judgments." Ps. 119: 37. "I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth," Jer. 9: 24. See also GC 481-488.

This is taught also, for instance, in the sanctuary service. If all God was concerned with is that people suffer the natural consequenes of their sins, there would have been no purpose in the sacrifices. The entire sacrificial system shows that God is holy and that sin must be punished, or receive its recompense. That is not the same as the sinner receiving the natural rewards of his sins. For instance, if I commit adultery and receive the "natural reward" of losing a wife and family, or perhaps of contracting a sexually transmitted disease, those natural consequenes are not sufficient payment for my sins in the eyes of the Judge of all the universe. There yet remains the positive punishment by God for my guilt in having sinned against God's rightousness. As David said, "Against You, YOU ONLY, have I sinned, and done this evil in Your sight." Ps. 51: 4

"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced [personally by Christ] against them." GC 668; cf p. 666.

[skyblue888]

’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch."

I do appreciate what Ty is saying but I do not think that this passage of Scripture is relevant to what he is saying. This passage of Scripture speaks of literal fire just as Revelation 20:9 does but that fire will not come directly out from the Lord but as a result of the clash between the terrible of the nations and Satan and his angels. At the end of the day, we may be sure that all the proud, all who do wickedly will be stubble. That's literal not symbolical.

sky

[phkrause]

Karl, I also enjoy Ty and his buddy. Watch there show on 3ABN.

pk

[pnattmbtc]

John317, Yesterday I wrote:

Quote:

John, on 3/16 I wrote the following:

John317, please respond to #344711, or #344618. (#344711 was a request to respond to #344618).

This was post #344837.

This is almost a week now I'm asking you to respond to #344837.

I've been responding to your posts. I know you don't have time to respond to every post, but I've been trying to understand some things in how you think, regarding:

a.Why you believe God is capable of torturing people?

b.How you distinguish between God's directly doing something vs. doing something passively, given that God is often presented as doing that which He permits.

c.How it is that threatening to torture someone by setting them on fire isn't coercing their will

d.How some things which God does are not for the purpose of winning the Great Controversy.

Regarding d., what I've pointed out is that the Great Controversy is about God's character and the principles of His government. Therefore everything God does is about winning the Great Controversy, because everything He does reveals His character and the principles of His government.

Please tell me your thoughts on these questions (without citing the same texts; I've already seen the texts. I'm trying to understand your thinking. I get how you understand the texts, but I don't know why.)

[Guest]

-vituperative-

blistering, scalding, scathing

adj. Using, containing, or marked by harshly abusive censure.

[Archie777]

A: I cannot discern from what you've written if you agree with the following conclusion: "Jesus will supernaturally prevent sinners from dying prematurely during final judgment so that they can fully pay their sin debt of death."

P: We've been through this. I don't agree with what you perceive this to mean. As I stated, I like the way Ty put things. I agree with that.

This is less than rewarding on two levels - 1) You omitted the context of my post, and 2) You are refusing to answer my question.

Please note that I have repeatedly pleaded with you not to answer my question by referring me to something somebody else wrote. I am sincerely seeking to learn what you believe as it relates to the statement above. Ty does not address the point I am zeroing in on.

By the way, do you suspect I'm trying to trick you or push you into a corner? If so, please know that is not my intention. I suspect you are unwilling to clearly address the point because it could lead to questions aimed at asking why Jesus would do something (supernaturally prevent them from dying prematurely so they can fully pay their sin debt of death) that unnaturally prolongs intense pain and agony.

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: Where have I ever said or made the slightest suggestion or inkling that the fire spoken of in Rev.20:9 is symbolic????!!!!

Quote:

JOHN3:17: It's symbolic from your viewpoint to the extent that you don't believe it's real fire that comes (as the verse says) from God out of heaven. You believe it is real fire that comes out of the earth and from sinful mankind. It's literal fire but it's not literally from God out of heaven. In literary terms, that makes it symbolic. In literature, you might have a literal fire but it can be symbolic of another, different literal fire. For instance, small, literal fires in some stories and poems represent the larger fires of hell.

Quote:

skyblue888: John, you can't be serious! So fire from nuclear weapons or bursting forth from beneath the earth or from erupting volcanoes is not real fire?

You need to go back and re-read what I wrote, sky. I never said that fire from nuclear weapons or from a volcano is not real fire. I said your explanation is literal fire but your view is that it is not literally from God out of heaven.

Quote:

skyblue888: You never cease to amaze me John, to what length you are willing to go to defend your faulty position...

I never said what you claim I said. Re-read what I said: "It's literal fire but it's not literally from God out of heaven. In literary terms, that makes it symbolic."

Quote:

skyblue888: ...that Jesus Christ, at His coming, or after the 1,000 years, will reveal Himself as a God who destroys His enemies by raining fire upon them.

This is exactly what the Bible and Ellen White say will happen. The Bible says it will be like what occurred at Sodom. Fire came from God out of heaven and burned up Sodom and the people. It did not come from weapons or from people killing each other.

[Archie777]

Archie: Good point. We manage the choices but God manages the consequences. He is sovereign. It is our duty and privilege to thank and praise God "for" and "in" everything since it is He who permits or prevents everything. He leaves nothing to choice or chance. Our choice is not the final answer. How God chooses to manage our choices is the final answer. The outcome is the result of God orchestrating our choices.

P: Let's be careful here. The holocaust, for example, was not a consequence which God "managed." We wouldn't want to imply by saying "He leaves nothing to choice or chance" that God had something to do with this. The holocaust was not the result of God's orchestrating our choices.

A: Many of the holocaust survivors expressed views similar to the one I articulated above. Jesus also said as much.

P: Is what you're saying something different than what I said? In other words, do you disagree with my response?

I'm not sure if you are in agreement with me. I believe God managed the choices made regarding the holocaust in a way that prevented things from exceeding His permissive will. No one suffered or died in ways that violated His established and enforced limits. Neither evil men nor evil angels were allowed to torture or kill people in ways not permitted by God. In this sense, God orchestrated the outcome.

[Archie777]

Quote:

Ex 32:26 "If you're on the LORD's side, come over here to me!" Then all the Levites gathered around him. 27 He said to them, "This is what the LORD God of Israel says: Each of you put on your sword. Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, and kill your relatives, friends, and neighbors." 28 The Levites did what Moses told them, and that day about 3,000 people died.

Matt 5: 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well. 40 If someone wants to sue you in order to take your shirt, let him have your coat too. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go two miles with him. 42 Give to everyone who asks you for something. Don't turn anyone away who wants to borrow something from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. 45 In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven.

These statements cannot be reconciled. No matter how much one twists, contorts and manipulates these statements are completely diametrically opposed.

What do you think accounts for the contradiction? Why did Moses say God commanded him to command the Levites to kill those people?

[Archie777]

A: I don't recall you attempting to explain why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners. If you did, then I'm sorry to say I overlooked it somehow.

R: You did overlook it.... Jesus didn't command any such thing

Do you believe Jesus instructed Moses in the OT? If so, do you believe the following passages portray Jesus commanding Moses to kill sinners?

Leviticus

24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

Numbers

15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

[pnattmbtc]

Where did Bob Ryan vituperate? Please point out the lines in the above quote which are vituperative. I frequently respond to vituperative posts. One must sometimes just ignore the vituperativeness. But honestly, I don't see in his post where Bob vituperates.