"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

But on the great day of judgement, God shall slay the evil, and the wicked with it.

Surely you will slay the wicked, O God... Psa 139:19

Eze 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: my eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, retribution to his enemies;

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Wow, Richard, I need to say something here. We need to understand the anger of the Lord, what His fierce anger is. I suggest you re-consider 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1

Yes the Lord will slay the wicked just as He slayed Saul. "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chron.10:14. Yet the Lord did not lift His little finger against Saul. The Lord had no choice but to leave him to himself, to reap what he had sown. Saul killed himself just as the wicked will kill each other in the end.

Richard, we need to understand the language of Heaven.

Yes, the Lord will repay and it will look like He will have no pity for the finally impenitent, as though He Himself will do the work of destruction.

sky

But the Bible doesn't say: "The Lord will slay the wicked just as He slayed Saul." Those are your words only. In fact Ellen White is very specific about how the LORD will slay the wicked. And it is nothing like the way He slayed Saul.

We are not to depend upon the wisdom, and the words of man, which is what you are doing.

[Archie777]

Archie: Some people believe Jesus will, during final judgment, gradually cease supernaturally preventing resurrected sinners and evil angels from succumbing to the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning. As a result they will gradually suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

P: Can you name one person who believes this?

I had you in mind. I take it you disagree with this summary. If so, I am terribly sorry. I did not mean to misrepresent your view. Please explain how I got it wrong. Thank you.

[skyblue888]

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

But on the great day of judgement, God shall slay the evil, and the wicked with it.

Surely you will slay the wicked, O God... Psa 139:19

Eze 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: my eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, retribution to his enemies;

___________________________________________________________

Wow, Richard, I need to say something here. We need to understand the anger of the Lord, what His fierce anger is. I suggest you re-consider 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1

Yes the Lord will slay the wicked just as He slayed Saul. "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chron.10:14. Yet the Lord did not lift His little finger against Saul. The Lord had no choice but to leave him to himself, to reap what he had sown. Saul killed himself just as the wicked will kill each other in the end.

Richard, we need to understand the language of Heaven.

Yes, the Lord will repay and it will look like He will have no pity for the finally impenitent, as though He Himself will do the work of destruction.

sky

But the Bible doesn't say: "The Lord will slay the wicked just as He slayed Saul." Those are your words only. In fact Ellen White is very specific about how the LORD will slay the wicked. And it is nothing like the way He slayed Saul.

We are not to depend upon the wisdom, and the words of man, which is what you are doing.

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Ezekiel 28:6-10 says exactly how God will slay the wicked but we still dont believe Him.

sky

[Archie777]

Archie: When the Jews inquired of God, because they were uncertain what to do in the cases of the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer, why did Jesus "command" the Jews to stone them to death? Why didn't He take advantage of the situation and command the Jews to pardon and release the sinners?

R: This is easy, but to the legalistic it is hard to understand...but I'll try! First of all the Scripture doesn't state he was a blasphemer. Let's look at the facts:

Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses

Did that "blasphemer" addition come from EGW? If so, she's adding and you are too!

[Guest]

Ezekiel 28:6-10 says exactly how God will slay the wicked but we still dont believe Him.

sky

Is this the only text that you take into account when studying the destruction of the wicked? Because that certainly seems to be the case. Have you forgotten William Miller's rules for studying the Bible? And what Ellen White says about how to study? And what the Bible itself says about how to study?

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence? Not only does that one text not weigh much. But you have arguably taken it out of context to boot. Have you considered all the many other texts that deal with this subject? Because for you to make that statement, it doesn't appear that you have.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Archie: Some people believe Jesus will, during final judgment, gradually cease supernaturally preventing resurrected sinners and evil angels from succumbing to the natural cause and effect consequence of sinning. As a result they will gradually suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

P: Can you name one person who believes this?

A:I had you in mind. I take it you disagree with this summary. If so, I am terribly sorry. I did not mean to misrepresent your view. Please explain how I got it wrong. Thank you.

I had in mind what Ty wrote.

[pnattmbtc]

God is not like that (i.e., won't rain fire upon people).

Why not? What is God like?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

Ezekiel 28:6-10 says exactly how God will slay the wicked but we still dont believe Him.

sky

Is this the only text that you take into account when studying the destruction of the wicked? Because that certainly seems to be the case. Have you forgotten William Miller's rules for studying the Bible? And what Ellen White says about how to study? And what the Bible itself says about how to study?

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence? Not only does that one text not weigh much. But you have arguably taken it out of context to boot. Have you considered all the many other texts that deal with this subject? Because for you to make that statement, it doesn't appear that you have.

Richard

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Richard, in all due respect, you must be getting too old for this. blink as if this was the only reference I have ever shared. I was the one who so often reminded all of us, time and time again, of this statement: "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42. How many times do you think I had to post this statement???

Is that your best argument at this point after all the Bible verses and statements that I and others have been sharing on this thread alone about this topic, verses and statements that contain the principles of interpretation for all these verses and quotes you and others have used to prove that God's judgments come directly out from the Lord even in the face of a testimony from the Lord Himself which declares they do NOT come directly out from Him upon the disobedient but that they place themselves beyond His protection.

Isaiah 14:12-20 must be read with Ezekiel 28:6-10

Pslam 34:21

I Chronicles 10:4,14

2 Sam.24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1

and many many others and many statements such as found in G.C.28,35,36,431,517,589,590,635,636,655,656,672,

P.P.728,739, and countless others,,,

These are a just a few examples but what would be the purpose to compare statement with statement and Scripture with Scripture if we refuse to accept any new light on this topic, if we, like the Jews of old, brace ourselves against anything that does not agree with our preconceived ideas?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

God is not like that (i.e., won't rain fire upon people).

Why not? What is God like?

For the simple reason that "All that man needs to know and can know about God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." 8 T 286.

Right? as you have been reminding us all along. And I thank the Lord for that.

Even the greatest of the prophets, Elijah and John the Baptist, including the very disciples of Christ expected that when the Messiah would come that He would reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire. How mistaken they were as D.A.215,217 has shown us.

So today how mistaken are those who expect Christ to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire to destroy the wicked at His appearing and at the end of the 1,000 years.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Is this the only text that you take into account when studying the destruction of the wicked? Because that certainly seems to be the case. Have you forgotten William Miller's rules for studying the Bible? And what Ellen White says about how to study? And what the Bible itself says about how to study?

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence? Not only does that one text not weigh much. But you have arguably taken it out of context to boot. Have you considered all the many other texts that deal with this subject? Because for you to make that statement, it doesn't appear that you have.

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: You may be sure that Satan and his angels will suffer the full penalty of their sins and of the sins they have caused people to commit. During the thousand years they will suffer mental agony the like of which you and I cannot comprehend and that for a thousand years and at the end of that time they will have to face the fury of all the unsaved of all ages!!! In war fire is always involved. When you play with fire you always get burned. It is the same if you kill by the sword you must be killed by the sword. Sin will only follow its natural course and God will not interfere. Why is this so difficult to accept or understand? "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

Quote:

Archie777: My understanding of the chronology of events delineated in the GC leads me to conclude:

1. Jesus raises the wicked.

2. They are initially wowed.

3. They attempt to storm New Jerusalem.

4. Judgment interrupts their plan.

5. They revisit their sins.

6. Jesus recounts the truth.

7. They turn upon one another.

8. Jesus rains down fire.

9. They suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

10. Jesus restores paradise.

I agree with this chronology and believe that it makes impossible the idea that the wicked will suffer their poropotional punishment before the fire comes from God out of heaven and consumes them.

There's also nothing in Ellen White's writings showing that the wicked will kill each other off or that they will succeed in killing the devil with swords or bombs. Such a scenario, in my view, is pure madness.

The only evidence that can be used to support this idea is Ezekiel 28: 10, a verse that must be taken out of context to be understand in that way. One must also ignore the testimony of many other clear passages from the Bible and Ellen White's writings.

For criminals to be able to kill the devil with swords, God would first have to make Satan take on a human body; but there's nothing in Scripture or the Spirit of prophecy indicating Satan will be incarnated. The only incarnation in history was the incarnation of the Word at the time Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.

My answer to sky's question as to why I don't accept his interpretation of the final destruction of the wicked is that it is not supported by Inspiration. Your chronology helps establish that. Unless sky can show that this chronology is false, his interpretation doesn't have even the beginning of a leg to stand on.

[pnattmbtc]

There's also nothing in Ellen White's writings showing that the wicked will kill each other off or that they will succeed in killing the devil with swords or bombs. The only evidence that can be used to support this idea is Ezekiel 28: 10, a verse that must be taken out of context to be understand in that way.

Of course, Ezekiel 28:10 is not in Ellen White's writings at all. From Ellen White's writings, the following are evidence that the wicked won't be caused to suffer torture by being set on fire and burned alive for days: GC 535-536; 541-542; DA 764.

[pnattmbtc]

John, on 3/16 I wrote the following:

Quote:

John317, please respond to #344711, or #344618. (#344711 was a request to respond to #344618).

This was post #344837.

I don't think you have. If you have, please tell me where.

Thanks.

[Robert]

My aim is to understand what you believe and what Jack Sequeira believes.

Why? Answer: To find a difference...Stop it John...it's getting old.

[pnattmbtc]

So today how mistaken are those who expect Christ to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire to destroy the wicked at His appearing and at the end of the 1,000 years.

Not only this, but many are making the same mistake the Jews did in regards to the nature of God's kingdom, and how it will be established (i.e., thinking of it in militaristic terms). There's also a misunderstanding of what justice is and what it means for justice to be established.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

You're arguing like this: God uses compelling power and physical force ==> It's not true that these things are found only under Satan's government ==> EGW's statement that compelling power can be found only under Satan's government must be interpreted.

I'm arguing, according to EGW, compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. ==> It is true that these things are found only under Satan's government ==> EGW's statements regarding activities where God appears to using these principles must be interpreted.

There's no a priori reason why one of these tracks of reason should be better than the other. This is what we're trying to discuss, which reasoning is correct.

I wrote this in response to John317. Does everyone agree with this? (i.e., that this characterizes a difference between the two points of view being discussed, and this is a good way of classifying the difference). The ==> means "therefore."

[Robert]

He probably got it from Pope Jack.

Can you read? What did I say about Paul? Jack specializes in the Pauline Epistles....He is an authority there....

[Robert]

The postive penalties for sin-- which are in no sense the natural consequences of sin-- are referred to in Ex. 32: 33; Lev. 26: 21;

The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." [Ex 32:33]

Wow, John....Nothing here about torment...Nothing about being on fire for many days....Context.

'If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. [Lev. 26: 21;]

That's the curse of the law. Why aren't you dead? Aren't you a sinner? Maybe you aren't under the jurisdiction of the law after all? I mean you are the one who tells believers that the law is binding! Again, why aren't you dead? Are you under law or grace? You can't have it both ways...

BTW, the curse of the law is God abandonment. God is assuming the blame in Lev 26...chapter 28 is even better.

[Robert]

9. They suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

This is heresy....I've pointed it out...proven it, but you teach this garbage.

If what you say is true then Jesus suffered less for the sins of all men than any one man.....That's injustice.

[Robert]

I don't recall you attempting to explain why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners. If you did, then I'm sorry to say I overlooked it somehow.

You did overlook it....

Jesus didn't command any such thing

[John317]

Quote:

John317: There's also nothing in Ellen White's writings showing that the wicked will kill each other off or that they will succeed in killing the devil with swords or bombs. The only evidence that can be used to support this idea is Ezekiel 28: 10, a verse that must be taken out of context to be understand in that way.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Of course, Ezekiel 28:10 is not in Ellen White's writings at all.

Nothing in Ellen White's writings shows that the wicked will kill each other off after the Great White Throne Judgemtn.

The only evidence anyone can cite for such a scenario is Ezekiel 28: 10, but to use it that way, one must take it out of context.

Ellen White quoted Ezekiel 28: 6-8, 16-19, on page 672 of The Great Controversy, but significantly she didn't quote v. 10.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: From Ellen White's writings, the following are evidence that the wicked won't be caused to suffer torture by being set on fire and burned alive for days: GC 535-536; 541-542; DA 764.

You're looking in the wrong place. Don't stop searching-- you'll find it if you keep seeking. She says it on the following pages: GC 671-673; 3 SG 83, 87; EW 51-54, 221, 294-295.

Read those pages carefully and tell what they actually say.

Do you see the lines, "Fire comes from God out of heaven and consumes them"? It means that God sends fire down on the wicked. God is the cause of the fire. He makes it come down on them.

How and when does this happen? Ellen White explains: "Satan and his angels try to encourage the wicked multitude to action [to attack the city of God]; but FIRE DESCENDS from Heaven, and UNITES WITH THE FIRE IN THE EARTH, AND AIDS IN THE GENERAL CONFLAGRATION." 3 SG 87

Is the fire in the earth literal and real? Then so much the fire that descends from Heaven be real, for both these fires unite and destroy not only the wicked but also purify the earth. (Closely compare 3 SG 83-87 where she speaks of oil and coal being used of God in "the final destruction," and that when "God purifies the earth," "it will appear like a boundless lake of fire." )

"Fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them... all are consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were PUNISHED according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a particle of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained." EW 294

This last paragraph proves without doubt that the suffering the wicked endure at this time comes AFTER the fire falls on them. This is when they are PUNISHED. The same proof is found in GC 673: "Satan's punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished... he is still to live and suffer on..."

Please answer this question directly: according to the above sentences, when do Satan and the rest of the wicked suffer their punishment-- (a) before the fire fall on them (after the fire falls on them?

[John317]

Quote:

Archie777: I don't recall you attempting to explain why Jesus commanded godly people like Moses to kill sinners. If you did, then I'm sorry to say I overlooked it somehow.

Quote:

ROBERT: You did overlook it....

Jesus didn't command any such thing

See the following evidence:

Exodus 32: 27, 28. Was Moses wrong? Who commanded Moses to do this? Was it God or Satan or Moses' own imagination?

Joshua 6--- did Joshua and the writer misunderstand what God told Joshua to do with Jericho?

Joshua 8: 18ff-- did Joshua misunderstand what God told the Israelites to do at A-i (or Ghai)?

Joshua 10: 8-10, 40-- same question.

Compare Ex. 17: 14 and Deut. 25: 17-19.

If the pre-incarnate Christ did not order them to do these things, how do you account for what the Bible says in those verses?

Ellen White has an important and interesting comment on these events in 4 SG 50.

[skyblue888]

There's also nothing in Ellen White's writings showing that the wicked will kill each other off or that they will succeed in killing the devil with swords or bombs. Such a scenario, in my view, is pure madness.

John317

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John, are you serious? do you mean to go on record saying that what Holy Writ says in Ezekiel 28:6-10 is pure madness?

The angels have recorded your words.

I think you should re-consider.

sky

John how many times do we need to be reminded that when Holy Writ says that fire will come down from God out of heaven it is in the sense that God will not exercise His power to prevent the wicked from causing that fire by which they will be consumed.

[Robert]

Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a particle of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained

This is evil....I can't believe EGW stooped to this level. No wonder she told her kid, "remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong". She terriozed her own kids....Been there, done that BS myself. How can our kids love God when He threatens to rejuvenate their flesh over and over so He can keep burning it over many days?...Sick, sick, sick, sick....Not even Hitler went that low....

The very fact that you see things this way doesn't say much for your character, John. You scare the heck out of me, seriously. I mean you even said that if God commanded you (and that would be a delusion) you would kill!

[Robert]

If the pre-incarnate Christ did not order them to do these things, how do you account for what the Bible says in those verses?