Let the Truth set us free by P. Barkhuizen

[Fausto]

For those of you who have read this rebutal, I'd like to discuss your genuine opinions!

I think the work is despicable but there is a lot of people who don't think so!

These unfortunately include pastors!

Anyway, to me the worst chapters are 2 and 3, which deeply attack and try to depose the prophecy of Daniel 8:14.

I confess I got tired of discussing it on Topix as there are few aSDA's and lots of naysayers, that is besides all the insulting!

Some of it though borders on pathetic...really!

Ok...the floor is now open, ladies and gentleman!

[Cosmin M.]

Never read the book... Could you provide us with a link to the first few chapters or post them on here?

[Fausto]

Don't know of a link, but I can send it to you, else you can request one from radiogoodhope@aol.com.

Please note it has a rather deceitful approach, hopefully you are well grounded in the truth.

I believe if you google "Let The Truth Set Us Free 052809" you will be able to download it!

[Fausto]

CHAPTER 1

The Mystery of the Family of God

I distinctly remember when, as a boy of around 15 or 16, the time had come to take catechism classes as pre-requisite to be confirmed in the Dutch Reformed Church.

One Sunday morning the elder-in-charge of our catechism class was teaching about who God was. This is what he said: “God is three persons in one.” At just about the same time, the minister came by to visit the class, and the elder told him about the topic we were discussing. The minister then made the following comment: “God is one person in three, but we can never truly understand the trinity – for it will always be a mystery.”

There are two things I remember very well about the Dutch Reformed Church in that small hamlet in South Africa: the instruction I received during catechism classes, and the four times a year when the Lord’s Supper was celebrated. I always enjoyed, and looked forward to Communion-time. Not because I was so religious, but because after the service was over, my two friends and I helped the church custodian to collect the empty wine glasses. Church members admired us for being so helpful. Little did they know that we soon discovered that some of those tiny glasses were still half-full, and some of the trays had four or five untouched glasses. We would then find a spot, like the steps leading up to the balcony, where no one could see us – and yes, enjoy those tiny shots of communion wine. It was probably the wrong thing to do, but what an appetite! Chicken, yellow rice with raisons, bread pudding, 1956! Now, for the more serious……….

Part of our discussion from now on, lies at the heart of Roman Catholic belief – in fact, it scrutinizes the major pillar of Papal dogma. According to the Bible, there will be another persecution of God’s people in the last days of earth’s history. I believe the issue will again touch that sensitive nerve of Catholicism, called TRINITARIANISM.

In the history of the Christian church there was severe persecution by Trinitarians against non-Trinitarians. The persecution started with the edict of the Roman emperor Theodosius, in 380 AD, which compelled everyone to accept the Catholic Trinity Doctrine. While persecution has ceased during the last two hundred years or so, extreme disagreement still continues to this very day over the Trinitarian vs. non-Trinitarian perception of the Godhead.

Yes, the doctrine of the Trinity is recognized as THE MAJOR DOCTRINE of the Catholic Church. It is my sincere conviction that the final end-time issue in the moments before the Second Coming will again be what it was about during the Dark Ages: a controversy, which involved WORSHIP, Christ’s Deity, and a correct understanding of WHO GOD IS.

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8

The context of this verse deals with the anti-Christ Beast power, operating during the final days of Earth’s history. You will notice in v.4 and v. 8 of Revelation 13 that the issue has to do with WORSHIP. All humans are interested in who to worship, because we all have a built-in longing for worship!

The central theme of both the Old and New Testament is WORSHIP. So it is understandable when people ask the question: “Who should we worship - One God in Three or Three Gods in one?”

Only since the 4th Century, the church has taught the doctrine of the Trinity. The subject seems confusing, not only because the word “trinity” cannot be found in the Bible, but also because there is absolutely no Scriptural support for the theological concept it postulates. The theory is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are three persons in one, also referred to by some as three hypostases (manifestations) of one being, which is God. It is believed that these three “persons” are equal in rank, eternal existence and of the same substance.

Careful probing of Scripture and history confirms the fact that the Trinity doctrine was not taught and believed by the early, monotheistic, New Testament Christians. The idea of a Trinity is the result of century long disagreements and disputes, and developed gradually. This doctrine became a leading topic for discussion and dispute at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, and became more established or practiced toward the end of the 4th Century.

When Jesus prayed that His disciples might be one as He was with His Father, the prayer did not contemplate one disciple with twelve heads, but twelve disciples – made one in goal and effort in the cause of the Gospel. Neither are the Father and the Son parts of a “three-in-one God”. God the Father, and His Son Jesus, are ONE in goal, yet TWO in function. God the Father and His only begotten Son are two distinct persons or individuals. Of course, as Son of God the Father, Jesus may use the Family Name: GOD. He is worthy of worship by all!

Jesus the Son of God is NOT God the Father! And God the Father is NOT Jesus the Son of God!

During the ancient Jewish economy of the Old Testament, and during the formative years of the early Christian Church, prior to the 4th century, no one ever prescribed to a Trinitarian view of the Godhead. (Deut. 6:4 – “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”) The question might be asked, “If the Trinity-teaching was such an important doctrine, why can it not be substantiated by Scripture?" Could it be another “man-made” institution, such as the Roman Catholic replacement of the original Seventh-day Sabbath with the pagan Day of the Sun?

Historical background of the Triune Deity:

Few Christians are aware of the fact that the concept of a trinitarian god can be traced back to ancient Babylon and primitive paganism! The Indian Hindu belief embraced the idea of a trinitarian group, consisting of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu. In Eqypt, worshipers bowed before the trinitarian gods Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Could it be that the Catholic Church had adopted the Trinity doctrine from paganism?

I believe the KEY to a proper hermeneutic or interpretation of Scripture is found in Mark 10:15,

“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein”

When we, with childlike faith, ONLY use the BIBLE in our quest for the truth about God, the first observation is that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for the Trinity doctrine! The Scriptures teach that there is only one supreme God over all: God the Father, who has a Son, Jesus. The Father and Son constitute the Family of God.

A brave young man (Elder Joseph Bates) once said to his father who tried to convince him about the Trinitarian doctrine: “If you can convince me that we are one in this sense that you are my father, and I your son; and also that I am your father, and you my son, then I can believe in the Trinity.”

The teaching that the Godhead is a trinity was first formulated and developed by a church father named Tertullian, between 196-212 CE. He was the first theologian to use the Latin word Trinitas, meaning Trinity in English. It took several centuries and several councils to establish the doctrine of the Trinity as accepted orthodox dogma. Only at the Council of Constantinople in 381 Christian Era, did the idea that God consists of three persons, become the official orthodox teaching of the Catholic Church.

OBSERVATION:

Most Adventists have a clear understanding about the existence of God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. The real problem seems to surface when we have to define the Holy Spirit. Only a small percentage visualizes the Holy Spirit as an individual person dressed in a white robe with sandals. Many picture the Holy Spirit as some kind of presence or power in their hearts and minds…and may yet refer to themselves as "Trinitarians". Please follow very carefully in your Bible as we engage a most vital part of our study regarding the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit:

The Catholic doctrine of the Trinity states that the Holy Spirit is a separate being, and part of the “Holy Trinity”. The phrase “Holy Spirit” is from the Hebrew, RUACH HA QODESH. The word spirit is derived from RUACH. In Greek, the word for spirit is PNEUMA, which means essentially the same as the Hebrew word RUACH. Basically it can mean both, “wind” or “breath” – and is never to be understood as ESSENCE. A better definition would be the word Power or Presence.

The adjective “holy”, describes the nature of God’s Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the power or presence emanating from the Father, through His Son to us. God is omni-present and does not need “a third person” to help Him with anything!

The pronoun “he”: Some linguistic specialists believe that the Gospels, as well as Revelation, were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic – and not the koine or common Greek of the later manuscripts. This observation is confirmed by the first-century priest/Hebrew historian, Josephus. (Antiquities, Book XX, Chapter X1)

Why is this fact important? The Hebrew and Aramaic languages have no “it” or neuter gender; therefore all nouns are either masculine or feminine. If therefore, the four Gospels were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic – that explains why in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is referred to by the masculine “he” and “him” and not “it” as it should have been referred to (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13).

Much misunderstanding has resulted because of expressions in some verses indicating that the Holy Sprit is a separate person, making decisions, speaking to people, getting his feelings hurt, grieving, etc.

What really happened is that Christ was involved in every instance, and since Christ was acting on behalf of God the Father, through His Spirit, the verse is written as though a person was speaking, which is true in a sense. It was a Spirit Being that talked to, and impressed them. It was Christ, representing God the Father, through the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a separate being with its own mind. It is simply what the Bible says: the Spirit of God!

We also have a spirit. Job 32:8 - “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”

This does not mean that there is a second being for every human being. In similar fashion is there also not a separate being called the Holy Spirit.

There is NO RECORD in the New Testament that anyone had ever seen the “person” of the Holy Spirit. Notice for instance how prophecy was authored through the Prophets.

1 Peter 1:11 – “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

It was clearly “The Spirit of Christ, which was IN THEM …… “

The Bible does NOT teach that the Holy Spirit is a separate being or person. In Isaiah 32:15, 44:3 and Acts 2:17 the Holy Spirit is described as being POURED. A being or person cannot be poured into another.

In Titus 3:5, 6 and Acts 2:33, we read that the Holy Spirit is SHED. One person cannot shed himself onto another person.

The Holy Spirit is also described as something that can be STIRRED UP (2 Timothy 1:6), QUENCHED (1 Thess. 5:19), and RENEWED (2 Cor. 4:16). These attributes are far more fitting for a power or presence, than a person!

John 20:22 – “And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost:”

Does a person ever get “breathed on” someone?

Please consider the following: There is no evidence in either the Old or New Testaments that the Father or Son ever communicated with the Holy Spirit.

Paul never addressed the Holy Spirit in the salutations of any of his letters, as he did with the Father and Son. Of the 27 books in the New Testament, 15 of them begin with a greeting similar to the record of Galatians 1:3,

“Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,”

Not one of these greetings mentions the Holy Spirit as a separate person or God.

There is no record where anyone ever prayed to the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called the “third person”. If the Holy Spirit were a separate being, it would have had a personal name, as do YAHWEH the Father, and YAHSHUA the Son. It is nameless, because it is not a person!

We know that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20), therefore if the Holy Spirit were a person, then Jesus prayed to the wrong “father” in John 17 and other instances! Is this a reasonable deduction?

Romans 8:27 - “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”

We all know there is only ONE MEDIATOR between us and God: JESUS CHRIST. Therefore, the “Intercessor” of Rom 8:27, is Jesus! (Please read 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18)

The truth is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, which flows through Christ, and can flow to humans if they desire it to be so, Romans 8:9.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of

God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Notice how the Spirit of God flows through Christ and to Christians as well. The same Spirit that is in God the Father is also in Jesus the Son. That Spirit is “Holy”. God’s Spirit is no more a person apart from His own Person, than our spirit is a person apart from us.

If someone should compliment you by saying: “you have a compassionate spirit”, you know the person is not talking about two persons!

Analysis of two “proof” Trinitarian Passages:

Most Trinitarians will refer to two New Testament passages in order to “prove” their belief in the doctrine of the Trinity.

1. Matthew 28:19 - “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost;”

Some Bible translations, such as the Jerusalem Bible, questions whether the baptismal formula recorded here, is inspired or was a later liturgical addition by the Catholic church.

The Hebrew version of Matthew, OMITS the entire verse. There are no original New Testament manuscripts in existence to substantiate the accuracy of the present rendition of Matthew 28:19. The context of this expression is not an explanation about what the Deity consists of, it is rather about BAPTISM. Jesus is not here teaching them about the Godhead. We could question the originality and validity of this passage, because it CONFLICTS with other baptismal formulas given in the New Testament. In ALL other instances, baptism is performed in the singular name of Jesus (see Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27). It seems that the original text should simply read: “baptize them IN MY NAME”. Of course, there is no need to feel “undone” if you were baptized in the 3-fold name. By allowing that, you have expressed your belief in the existence of the one true God, the mediation of His Son, and the power of His Holy Spirit.

2. 1 John 5:7 – “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

Most biblical scholars will admit that 1 John 5:7 was a later (Catholic) addition to the New Testament. This passage is not found in the oldest Greek New Testament manuscripts. It is interesting to note that a number of Bible editions OMIT this interpolation. Among those are the esteemed Afrikaans Multivertaling Bybel, the New International Version, the New American Standard Version, and the Contemporary English Version. There are dozens of other translations that offer footnotes indicating that 1 John 5:7 is not present in earlier manuscripts. Verse 7 was ADDED along the way. Scholars refer to this as the COMMA JOHANNEUM.

Perhaps we should look at John 1:1, 2.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”.

Some interpret this verse to mean that God the Father and His Son, Jesus, is one and the same Person! However, the text, "the Word was with God" clearly speaks of two separate entities or individuals. According to Revelation 19:11, 13, - Jesus is also known as “Word of God”. And John 1:14 explains: “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. This clearly defines for us who “the Word” is, and that this "Word" is not God the Father. By virtue of His relationship to His Father, Jesus may use the Family Name, God. Thusly the Word that "was God" was none other than Jesus, the Son of God, Who was "in the beginning" with God the Father!

One more verse I should mention is 2 Corinthians 13:14.

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

Once again, nothing in this text tells us about the relation between Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. It is rather speaking about their relation to us. This verse is a closing greeting, and just because the three expressions are used in one verse, does not establish the doctrine of the Trinity. The "Holy Spirit" should be viewed as the intimate and holy presence of the Father and Son in the hearts and minds of believers. In 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 we find Paul’s clear teaching about the Godhead.

“As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,

and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Who is the COMFORTER?

Most Christians are familiar with the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, and the words of Jesus recorded in John 6:56.

“He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in Him"

Jesus said that HE will live IN US. Paul stated that Jesus wants to dwell IN OUR HEARTS. He speaks of “CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory”, (Colossians 1:27). Again, in Galatians 2:20, Paul says that “CHRIST liveth IN ME.” Just take a moment and think this through….

Can you ever imagine how much God really loves you?

Galatians 4:6 – “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

Jesus is so intimate with us that He adopts us into His very own family–relationship with God the Father, and He “shares” His own Father with us! He cries with us and for us “Abba Father!” Notice, it is Jesus IN US who cries out to the Father!

I think it is reasonable to assume that God not only (John 3:16) sent His only begotten Son to die for us, but also for His Son to live IN us.

John 14:16 – “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;”

Observe how Jesus continues His discourse, saying that He would send “the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you” - John 14:17

It must have impacted the disciples when, just after Jesus said, “the world” does not know the Spirit (Comforter), He then said, “but ye know him”! The question is HOW could the disciples know the promised “Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost”? - (v. 26)

Follow with me, as we dig deeper. Jesus explains in John 14:17, “……. ye know him; for (or because) he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you”. Who was dwelling WITH the disciples? Jesus Christ Himself! And Jesus said that soon this Person who was dwelling WITH them would be IN them. Jesus would simply manifest Himself in another form or presence.

His essential presence would be in their hearts and minds, even if His body-Person has ascended to heaven (John 16:7). Jesus explained that the disciples would profit much if He went to His Father, and sent the Comforter to dwell IN them.

Jesus said in John 14:18 - “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. Here we notice why the Comforter could not come until after Christ went away and was glorified; for Jesus HIMSELF would come back to His disciples to comfort them! Could it be any clearer? We continue to read how Jesus Himself reinforces this point in John 14:19, 20.

“Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”

Just a few moments earlier Jesus had said to His disciples that the Comforter “shall be in you”. Now, Jesus says that when the Comforter comes, “Ye shall know that I am in you”.

In essence, Jesus assured the disciples that He would NOT send anyone else, but Himself to be their Comforter. They would recognize that the same "Person" who was dwelling WITH them, would now be IN them through HIS SPIRIT. The Bible cannot be clearer!

Of course, we must not forget the role of God, our Heavenly Father, Himself. Remember the Father and Son are so intimately connected, that they are one Family.

Read with me John 14:23. “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”.

Jesus made it very clear that after His ascension, He would come back to live in the hearts of His people. Not only would HE return, but His Father would come with Him, so that BOTH of them would live in the hearts of his children, not physically, but by God’s Spirit.

Thusly we may enjoy fellowship with both the Father and His Son! John understood this principle very well as recorded in 1 John 1:3, “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”. Please observe that no reference is made to a “third” person.

John also confirms in several other verses, that ONLY God the Father and His Son, live in us:

2 John 1:9 – “He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son”.

1 John 2:22, 23 – “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the

Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit was working upon the hearts of people long before the day of Pentecost, helping them to overcome and combat sin. Remember our great grandfather David’s concern? Psalms 51:11. “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.” This is clear evidence that the Holy Spirit was at work before Christ came to earth.

Scripture specifically confirms that the Spirit of Christ worked in Old Testament times.

“Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner or time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.” 1 Peter 1:11,12

So, long before the New Testament, the Spirit of Christ was living in the prophets. A good example of the guidance of the Holy Spirit was when it moved David to write concerning the death of Christ: “I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.” Psalm 88:8

The Bible records in more than thirty instances the fact that God the Father raised Christ from the dead. Galatians 1:1 – “Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)”

Christ did not raise Himself from the dead – or else He would not have been dead in the first instance! (Please read the great Christian-Confession in Romans 10:9).

On page eleven of Handbook for Today’s Catholic, the Roman Catholic Church admits, “The mystery of the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Faith. Upon it are based all the other teachings of the Church.”

It is interesting to note how with the passing of time, different denominations made adjustments to some of their doctrines and creeds in acceptance of the Roman Catholic Trinitarian doctrine.

For example, consider hymn number 73 in our Adventist Hymnal, “Holy, Holy, Holy”. This song appears in both the 1941 and 1985 editions, but with a major difference! Written in 1826 by Reginald Heber, it was originally a Trinitarian song, ending with, “God in three persons blessed Trinity!” In the 1941 version of the Adventist Hymnal, it reads as follows: “God over all who rules eternity!” Why the change-back in 1985?

As time went on, we have like many other Protestant Churches, also adopted the Roman Catholic Trinity Doctrine (officially in 1980). Therefore, in 1985 the words in the Adventist Hymnal were changed to the original, reflecting the church’s present position on the Trinity. The Adventist Church was non-Trinitarian but has changed to become a Trinitarian Church! You can very easily verify this yourself.

Notice the statement on p. 56 of the Amazing Facts booklet, What About The Trinity? “It’s very important to have a proper understanding about all 3 Persons of the Godhead – they are not 3 God’s, they are One God in 3 Persons – and the only way for us to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and accept the Holy Trinity!” Please note, “the only way” to be saved, is Jesus Christ PLUS the belief in the Catholic Trinity!

It is interesting to note that in Revelation 22:3, John gives us a glimpse of God’s throne:

“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: and his servants shall serve him:”

John says it is the throne of God and of the Lamb. It is obvious that God’s throne has two SEATS, one for the Father and one for the Lamb. And we will be ruled, on the new earth, by the Father and the Son as two distinct, separate beings …… for eternity! The Holy Spirit as a person is no where to be found on God’s throne, and plays no apparent pivotal role on the New Earth!

I trust you will accept, with many fellow Adventists, the Biblical teaching, that “there is but one God the Father” and “one Lord Jesus Christ”, who is “the only begotten Son of God”, who “proceedeth forth” and “came out of God”, “before the hills”, who “died for our sins according to the Scriptures”, and “the Father raised Him from the dead”. My sincere hope is that you will also believe that the Holy Spirit is “the Holy Spirit of God”, which “proceedeth from the Father” and is sent to us “through Jesus Christ”. Here are the Scriptural references – be sure to mark them in your Bible: 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 3:18; John 8:42; 16:27; Proverbs 8:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3; Galatians 1:1; Eph. 4:30; John 15:26; Titus 3:5, 6.

When a person who is honestly mistaken discovers truth, that person will either cease being mistaken or stop to be honest!

I now want to mention something very personal …… from my heart to yours. I hope you will not perceive my analysis as an “attack” on the Church I love, and for which I will give my life. I’m simply being honest with myself and with you. Hopefully you will study and verify my presentations. My goal is to HELP our church, not confuse it!

Many times when we discover “new light”, it can be compared to a trauma-event, such as learning of a loved one who has suddenly died.

Psychologists have identified some very clear human reactions to significant impact events:

Our first reaction is expressed in shock, disbelief and denial; followed by anger and sometimes blame or feelings of guilt - finally comes acceptance or closure. This is how I personally reacted. These typical human-responses are perfectly normal.

One more observation before we continue our journey: It might very well be that someone will WARN you against studying this research document. Satan will do everything possible to withhold these end-time truths from our people. But the time has arrived for God's final-hour message to Laodicea.

Let’s be very frank. Whenever we reason with Sunday-keepers about the true Sabbath, we many times would offer them $1000 if they could prove Sunday keeping from the Bible alone. We then explain to them the 8 first-day texts in the Bible – we win the argument and our $1000 is safe. I have personally issued this challenge many times as Conference Evangelist for more than 20 years! Please read my booklet, The Fourth Dilemma, printed by Review & Herald and available at any ABC bookstore. (Also available in Afrikaans, Spanish, Korean, etc.)

I could very well offer a similar challenge to anyone who should warn you not to read this Manuscript.

This is a very serious issue for me personally. As an Adventist Public Evangelist and Published Author, I enjoy much trust and appreciation from Adventist church members ... even on cross-cultural levels, around the world. No minister in his right mind would throw all of this overboard, unless something of extreme importance is at stake…

You have just studied with me the section on the Trinity. What is your honest reaction to this? If you are in agreement with the non-Trinitarian perspective, then you do not conform to our Corporate Church's alignment with the Catholic Trinitarian Doctrine!

Possible reactions could be to:

1. realize that there are thousands of our brothers and sisters who believe the non-Trinitarian notion about the Godhead, and we are not standing alone.

2. stay in the church and simply believe the correct, Bible-way, and be prepared to defend your position if challenged. Mark your Bible and have the historical FACTS at hand.

3. make your convictions known to your Minister, your local Church Board, and your Conference President.

What I have presented to you up to this point and in the pages to follow, is simply a short synopsis of FOUR specific perspectives in an effort to encourage dialogue within our church. Scholars can probably write a book on each paragraph of this MS. I also realize that when I will be criticized, I will not always be around to defend my Biblical positions. For that I rely on YOU! Simply stay with the actual Bible verse and your faith will NOT be moved!

Because of the Internet, it is now possible for ANYONE to research just about ANYTHING! You are not under any cultic-obligation to "only do as the Church does". You are a FREE individual with your own mind and freedom to make choices. Be sure to exercise this privilege! Thank you for choosing to read further…

"Truth that cannot be tested … is Truth that cannot be trusted!"

[SivartM]

This person wrote "The Fourth Dilemma"? Interesting.

Anyway, I don't think it's possible to fully understand "what" the Holy Spirit is. As long as He is working in our lives... that is good enough.

[Fausto]

He sure did! Doesn't that sound odd?

Its almost like he was gathering followers, and now this! Hmmmmm!

[karl]

How does it change anything whether the Holy Spirit is a separate Being or simply emanates from the Father and the Son as the ubiquitous and purposeful force of Godliness? Jesus flat-out told us we can't know how the Spirit works.

Seems like much ado over nobody knows what.

[karl]

KARL

the HOLY SPIRIT is the 3rd part of the GOD HEAD

so it must be important as to who he is

dgrimm60

The question isn't whether the Holy Spirit is important. It is whether man, by putting on his best thinking cap, can find out God. This is an aspect of GOD we are talking about. About Whom we know nothing except His character. Which is a marvelous revelation, but doesn't tell us much about how the Godhead operates.

God occupies at least one dimension we are totally ignorant of. Probably more. He speaks things into existence. Immense things, like planets. Am I likely to figure out how He does this by my employment of extremely deft motions with my slide ruler? No. And Jesus says we are just as clueless about the workings of the Holy Spirit.

[abelisle]

Historically speaking, our early Adventist pioneers were Arians. What caused them to change their views? And would that bear on our understanding of the Trinity?

Alex

[Fausto]

Quote:

Historically speaking, our early Adventist pioneers were Arians. What caused them to change their views? And would that bear on our understanding of the Trinity?

Alex

Herewith is the church's last position on this matter from the e-book , Trinity among SDA by Gerhard Pfandi

Quote:

The 1980 Dallas Statement of Fundamental Beliefs Prior to the 1980 General Conference in Dallas, a proposed statement of 27 Fundamental Beliefs was sent to the world divisions. At the conference itself a revised version, incorporating the many

suggestions from the world field, was discussed and eventually voted as an expression of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Fundamental Belief number two on the Godhead states, There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal,

all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through

His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.

Fundamental Belief number four on “The Son” includes the phrase “Forever truly God, he became also truly man.”32 And Fundamental Belief number five, entitled “The Holy Spirit” begins with the sentence, “God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation,

and redemption.”33 Thus, the 1980 statement of Fundamental Beliefs fully supports the doctrine of the Trinity.

Seventh-Day Adventist Anti-Trinitarians

In recent years a number of anti-Trinitarian publications have appeared in our church, for example, Fred Allaback, No new leaders ... No new Gods!; Lynnford Beachy, Did They Believe in the Trinity; Rachel Cory-Kuehl, The Persons of God; Allen Stump, The Foundation of Our Faith; and others. The tenor of all these publications is that “the church as a whole rejected the doctrine of the Trinity, and it was not until many years after the death of Ellen G. White that the Adventist church changed their [sic] position in regards to the Trinity.”

The doctrine of the Trinity is seen as “the ‘omega’ of doctrinal apostasy within the Seventh-day Adventist denomination.”

Therefore, to remain true to God, they claim, we need to return to the faith of our pioneers and reject the Trinity.

Apart from a few biblical arguments, most of the arguments advanced to promote this idea are historical; with the focus on our pioneers and Ellen White:

1. All our pioneers, including Ellen White were anti-Trinitarians.

Answer: It is true that at the beginning our pioneers expressed their understanding of the Godhead in anti-Trinitarian terms. Anti-Trinitarianism at that time was based on three leading ideas:

(1) There once was a time when Christ did not exist.

(2) Christ received divinity from the Father and was

therefore inferior to him.

(3) The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the Godhead but only the power or influence of God and Christ.

All of these ideas were originally held by our pioneers. However, it is also a historical fact that the understanding of our pioneers changed over time. For example,

(1) In 1846 James White referred to “the old unscriptural trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus is the eternal God.”37 But in 1876 he wrote that “S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the Trinitarians, that we apprehend no

trial here.”

And a year later he declared his belief in the equality of the Son with the Father and condemned any view as erroneous that “makes Christ inferior to the Father.”

(2) Originally Uriah Smith and others taught that Christ was the first created being. Later he adopted the position that Christ was begotten not created (see p. 3 above).

(3) In 1896 W. W. Prescott wrote, As Christ was twice born, once in eternity, the only begotten of the Father, and again

in the flesh, thus uniting the divine with the human in that second birth, so we, who have been born once already in the flesh, are to have the second birth, being born again in the Spirit ...”

Twenty-three years later at the 1919 Bible Conference, during a discussion on the divinity of Christ, he admitted, I was in the same place that Brother Daniells was, and was taught the same things [that Christ was the beginning of God’s creative

work, that to speak of the third person of the Godhead or of the trinity was heretical] by authority, and without doing my own thinking or studying I suppose [sic] I was right. But I found out something different.

When he raised the question, “Can we believe in the deity of Christ without believing in the eternity of Christ?” One of the participants answered, “I have done so for years.” To this Prescott replied: That is my very point — that we have used terms in that accommodating sense that are not really in harmony with Scriptural teaching.

We believed a long time that Christ was a created being, In spite of what the Scripture says. I say this, that passing over the experience I have passed over myself in this matter — this accommodating use of terms which makes the Deity without eternity, is not my conception now of the gospel of Christ. I

think it falls short of the whole idea expressed in the Scriptures, and leaves us not with the kind of Savior I believe in now, but a sort of human view — a semi-human being.

As I view it, the deity involves eternity. The very expression involves it. You cannot read the Scripture and have the idea of deity without eternity.

As we can see, our pioneers were not locked into one particular interpretation. When new understanding came, they changed their views even though at times it took a long time. Furthermore, we must note that some of their views as to what was involved in the Trinity were erroneous, e. g., they

thought the Trinity was three persons in one person, or that Jesus and the Father were one and the same.

Another misconception was the idea that the Trinity teaches the existence of three Gods. Many also held the view that belief in the Trinity would diminish the value of the atonement, i. e., if Christ was the selfexisting God, he could not have died on Calvary. If only his humanity died, then his sacrifice was only a human sacrifice. These misunderstandings contributed to the rejection of the Trinity.

[oldsailor29]

I believe the Lord rebukes those who do not believe the Holy Spirit is the third revelation of the one infinite God, who stands outside of time and space.

Mat 12:31 KJV - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32 KJV - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[karl]

Quote:

1. All our pioneers, including Ellen White were anti-Trinitarians.

Answer: It is true that at the beginning our pioneers expressed their understanding of the Godhead in anti-Trinitarian terms. Anti-Trinitarianism at that time was based on three leading ideas:

(1) There once was a time when Christ did not exist.

(2) Christ received divinity from the Father and was

therefore inferior to him.

(3) The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the Godhead but only the power or influence of God and Christ.

If #1 and #2 are where the anti-trinitarians are going I want no part of it. Jesus is the self-existent Creator. He is not some junior God. The fact that He humbled Himself is made less magnanimous by anything that diminishes His Godhood.

[BobRyan]

1. I know of NO evidence that Ellen Harmon as a United Methodist - was anti-trinitarian. I know of no statements at all from her condemning the trinitarian POV.

Ellen White was one of the key factors in changing the entire SDA denomination to the pro-trinitarian point of view starting in the 1880's and 1890's.

2. Ellen White never taught that there was a time when God the Son did not exist.

3. Ellen White never argued that God the Son was inferior to God the Father.

4. Ellen White states emphatically her support for the three PERSONS of the Godhead.

[BobRyan]

Barkhuizen is apparently wrong in almost every argument he makes based on that chapter one post on page one.

How sad.

You would think he would have figured it out by now.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He {Jesus} could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. {FLB 52.6}

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit . . . is as much a person as God is a person. . . . {FLB 52.2}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. {FLB 52.3}

Jesus said of himself that HE did not speak HIS OWN words - but spoke as the Father directed Him (John 12).

Jesus said of the Holy Spirit that HE would not speak HIS OWN words but would speak the words of Christ (John 16).

BOTH of THEM are persons.

In John 17 Christ said that HE was to be IN US and we IN HIM.

He also said that HE was in the Father - and one with the Father.

This language did not make people cease to be real "persons".

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son. {8T 268}

Just because I am my Father's son, does not make me inferior to him.

[teresaq]

Historically speaking, our early Adventist pioneers were Arians. What caused them to change their views? And would that bear on our understanding of the Trinity?

Alex

[wayfinder]

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man (mankind) in Our image, according to Our likeness;...

Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven : a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars ; 2 and she was with child ; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Revelation 1:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

In the texts given above, we are told that when God created the heavens and the earth there are more than one; because they use the plural terms We and Us and Our. Genesis was written by Moses, who understandably was given this information from the Creators themselves. Genesis 2 would imply that God has a masculine and femine image, not both in one being, but a God with a masculine image and one with a femine image.

Jesus explained to Nicodemus that a requirement to enter the kingdom of God, was to be born again by the Spirit of God. Revelation 12:1,2 depicts a Woman in the heavens, standing on the moon (femine symbol) and clothed with light (as that of the sun), literally "light from the East". This Woman gives birth to the Son of God and stays on earth in seclution until a certain appointed time. What is clear is that this woman cannot be Mary, so She must be the Holy Spirit. With the knowledge of the information given to Nicodemus, those who are in the kingdom are there because they have been born of the water and the Holy Spirit. Revelation 12:17 states that this Woman, who's first born is the Son of God, gives birth after coming out of seclution, and Her offspring are the "Remnant" the last. These are the ones, against whom, the dragon is preparing his kingdom to make war with. The only conclution to this information is to understand that the Holy Spirit is the Woman of Revelation 12 and the Mother of the kingdom of God. Those who enter the kingdom of God, do so by being born again. Michael, who was, is and always will be God, was "born" of the same Mother that gives birth to the righteous and when we are born of the Holy Spirit we will be like Him, His brothers and sisters.

The Family of God is just that, a family, Father, Mother and Son, Jesus became the Son of God when He was born of God and entered this world.

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD : He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You

[Guest]

So what are you trying to say wayf?

[wayfinder]

What I am saying is: God is a family name it is not "the Name". The family of God is the Father, Holy Spirit (Mother) and Son (Jesus Christ). The subject of this thread appears to be concerning the three members of the "Godhead" and if they are separate beings or one being in three forms. Understanding this concept in human terms may be helpful.

When God made the woman from Adam's rib, Adam saw her not only as a separate person, but flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. Adam recognized that he and the woman were one flesh yet two separate beings. The family of God is One God in three separate beings.

[Guest]

The Holy Spirit is not a woman.

[SivartM]

What is clear is that this woman cannot be Mary, so She must be the Holy Spirit.

How do you know she isn't Britney Spears?

[SivartM]

The Holy Spirit is not a woman.

How do you know?

[wayfinder]

Richard, you make being a woman sound somehow inferior.

SivartM, Because her picture is not smeared all over the tabloids!

[Guest]

John 16: 7, in which Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a male, not a female. Both the noun and the personal pronoun are masculine, which would NOT be the case if Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit as feminine.