Am I right or wrong?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Scripture is "absolute" in its claims and standards.

Problem is when we start to demand it be "relative" because we have imbibed one of the many false teachings of the world, in this example for instance, that all things are "relative"...

Mark

I understand your concerns and I agree that God's standards are absolute. However, the creatures He interacts with are not.

Do you not believe that God's grace is given to you in a form that is specifically addressed to your needs, Mark? I mean your needs as opposed to someone else's.

Is Christ's interaction with you personally a one-size-fits-all friendship? Or is it custom fit? My understanding of the Gospel is Jesus standing at EACH heart's door requesting admission. He says He will come in and sup with me and with each person individually. Do you think He might have a different flavor of tea for you than He does for me?

Are you just a number in the plan of salvation?

The Gospels differ, yet in them the record blends in one harmonious whole. One writer brings in points that another does not bring in. If these points are essential, why did not all the writers mention them? It is because the minds of men differ and do not comprehend things in exactly the same way. Some truths appeal much more strongly to the minds of one class of persons than to others; some points appear to be much more important to some than to others.

There are some things that need to be repeated...Karl's post is just "right on" in this instance. Good post, Karl!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Neil, here you are, I've been looking for you. It's been over a year now and I want to ask you, what's your view of President Obama? Have you seen the things I said come to pass? :-) Just checking to see if you remembered. lol

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Scripture is "absolute" in its claims and standards.

Problem is when we start to demand it be "relative" because we have imbibed one of the many false teachings of the world, in this example for instance, that all things are "relative"...

Mark

I understand your concerns and I agree that God's standards are absolute. However, the creatures He interacts with are not.

Do you not believe that God's grace is given to you in a form that is specifically addressed to your needs, Mark? I mean your needs as opposed to someone else's.

Is Christ's interaction with you personally a one-size-fits-all friendship? Or is it custom fit? My understanding of the Gospel is Jesus standing at EACH heart's door requesting admission. He says He will come in and sup with me and with each person individually. Do you think He might have a different flavor of tea for you than He does for me?

Are you just a number in the plan of salvation?

The Gospels differ, yet in them the record blends in one harmonious whole. One writer brings in points that another does not bring in. If these points are essential, why did not all the writers mention them? It is because the minds of men differ and do not comprehend things in exactly the same way. Some truths appeal much more strongly to the minds of one class of persons than to others; some points appear to be much more important to some than to others.

Grace is poured out in two ways. One: at the cross in the fullness of time, God did not destroy humanity but chose to let His Son bear our punishment. That grace grants us the gift of life and thereby we praise God for every thing we are and have. Every loaf of bread is stamped with the cross... "In the matchless gift of His Son, God has encircled the whole world with an atmosphere of grace as real as the air which circulates around the globe. All who choose to breathe this life-giving atmosphere will live and grow up to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus." {SC 68.1}

Two: individual manifestations of grace to meet our personal needs, think of Paul when he asked three times for God to remove his thorn in the flesh and what did Jesus say to Him? My grace is sufficient for you, Paul.

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

There is most certainly absolute Truth. NO doubt. But clearly we don't know what it is and will not till we get to heaven and have all of eternity to study it.

Praise God ... He doesn't knock us over the head with absolute Truth. He gives us spoon full by spoon full ... just what we need at the time we need it and just the amount that we can tolerate.

He does this through His Holy Spirit differently with each person. For instance ... He works on one person to understand the Sabbath ... but totally ignores that issue in favor of another absolute Truth with someone else.

I trust the wisdom of God to do just what is right for me individually. For I clearly don't know it all. And this is why I need to be patient with the rest of you who don't know it all either.

[Woody]

Quote:

"All who will not keep His law by the power of the Holy Spirit reveal that they have not believed God."

I don't keep the law. I am guilty. I guess I have to be the first one to admit it.

But I do believe in God. I believe in the sacrifice of his Son also.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

"All who will not keep His law by the power of the Holy Spirit reveal that they have not believed God."

I don't keep the law. I am guilty. I guess I have to be the first one to admit it.

But I do believe in God. I believe in the sacrifice of his Son also.

I hear you, however, try the Holy Spirit and watch Him grow you as you surrender yourself to Christ. When we see the ugliness of our sinfulness, we have choices, we can say "I have no hope so what the use, Christ covers me anyway" which is a fatal deception or "Lord, please HELP me I'm perishing"

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[wayfinder]

Galations 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

perinde ac cadaver:"Perinde ac cadaver in omnibus ubi peccatum non cerneretur" (to obey like a corpse in all matters in which one does not fall into sin).

This is the salvation theology of Paul. When one is crucified with Christ, the one dies and is no longer alive, but the Spirit of Christ lives in the flesh of the one crucified. The Spirit is righteous and therefore the unamimated flesh is given life by the Spirit and is the righteous required by God.

I find many, many problems with this salvation theology.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Galations 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

perinde ac cadaver:"Perinde ac cadaver in omnibus ubi peccatum non cerneretur" (to obey like a corpse in all matters in which one does not fall into sin).

This is the salvation theology of Paul. When one is crucified with Christ, the one dies and is no longer alive, but the Spirit of Christ lives in the flesh of the one crucified. The Spirit is righteous and therefore the unamimated flesh is given life by the Spirit and is the righteous required by God.

I find many, many problems with this salvation theology.

Hi Wayfinder,

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about, but I was referring to gaining victory in our lives, not salvation.

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[wayfinder]

If salvation is not the victory, than what victory are you refering to? We talk about truth, but what is that? Well truth is what is true, how to we find it and how do we know it when we do find it? We say God is truth, but which god? Satan can and does personify the god most people want. This false god presents himself as loving, kind, understanding, nonjudgmental, personal, caring... and he presents the true God as just the oppsite. You are right in you statement about truth, the rub comes when we see differences between our understanding of what the truth is. I have had many tell me that it is impossible to discover truth today, being that we are so far removed from the time when the Son of God testified in person. I have been told that we will know the truth when we get to heaven, but only those who know and practice the truth here and now will go to heaven. So if it is knowing and practicing the truth that gives us the victory, than, in the imortal words of governor Pilate "What is Truth!"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

If salvation is not the victory, than what victory are you refering to? We talk about truth, but what is that? Well truth is what is true, how to we find it and how do we know it when we do find it? We say God is truth, but which god? Satan can and does personify the god most people want. This false god presents himself as loving, kind, understanding, nonjudgmental, personal, caring... and he presents the true God as just the oppsite. You are right in you statement about truth, the rub comes when we see differences between our understanding of what the truth is. I have had many tell me that it is impossible to discover truth today, being that we are so far removed from the time when the Son of God testified in person. I have been told that we will know the truth when we get to heaven, but only those who know and practice the truth here and now will go to heaven. So if it is knowing and practicing the truth that gives us the victory, than, in the imortal words of governor Pilate "What is Truth!"

[Dr. Rich]

It does? Hmmm? Something smells in this story. (Rotten onions anyone?)

[Dottie]

Norman - -

Those wouldn't be Vidalias, would they? Absolutely delicious!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Norman - -

Those wouldn't be Vidalias, would they? Absolutely delicious!

Those onions grow in Vidalia GA which is about 70 miles from here. Funny thing is we hardly get them.

Norman

[nuff sed]

I read somewhere that the Vidalia onion is actually a Texas onion. When grown in Vidalia, Georgia it is one of the mildest, sweetest onions you could wish for...............'nuff sed

[LifeHiscost]

The devil is never happy. Angels were not all created equal. Obviously, Lucifer was created inferior to Gabriel.

Taking my idea from the Scriptures, God created nothing inferior. Inferiority is a product of fallen creatures and their inferior intellect. Perhaps lower might be a better word but even that seems somewhat skewed by a superiority complex.

"God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good." Genesis 1:31 NASB

While this verse addresses specifically the time of creation of the earth, would it be appropriate to say that some other time in creation God looked over what He had made and concluded it was inferior (to what He had previously made)?

Joy!!

[LifeHiscost]

God has saved ALL of us Pam.

However only as long as we do not knowingly resist His efforts.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17 KJV

JOY!!

[LifeHiscost]

I figured I needed to find some good soul that deserved heaven but didn't want to go.

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 NASB

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."Matthew 18:11 KJV

JOY!!

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Woody

God has saved ALL of us Pam.

However only as long as we do not knowingly resist His efforts.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17 KJV

JOY!!

Actually, we can forfeit salvation just by neglecting it. By getting so involved in worldly pursuits that we no longer have time for God. Humanity is not pre-saved. Salvation is offered each person. We have the choice to pursue a saving relationship with God or to reject/neglect it.

[olger]

True. God has temporarily passed over the sins of all men. This does not mean that all are justified, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

[Woody]

Eph.1:3-4 "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"

[karl]

True. God has temporarily passed over the sins of all men. This does not mean that all are justified, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Amen. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary is the completion of God's temporary passing over of the sins of all men.

[LifeHiscost]

Actually, we can forfeit salvation just by neglecting it. By getting so involved in worldly pursuits that we no longer have time for God. Humanity is not pre-saved. Salvation is offered each person. We have the choice to pursue a saving relationship with God or to reject/neglect it.

I might be able to accept that type of reasoning except for two circumstances(more could be considered) that come to mind, of course not forgetting pursuing does not give a set length of time the pursuit is accomplished and what type of "activity' is involved in the "pursuit".

Also our pursuit being a necessity for salvation puts the onus directly upon the suppliant, making our "works" the reason for our salvation as apposed to salvation by God's grace.

"Then the Lord said through his servants the prophets: “King Manasseh of Judah has done many detestable things. He is even more wicked than the Amorites, who lived in this land before Israel. He has caused the people of Judah to sin with his idols. So this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I will bring such disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that the ears of those who hear about it will tingle with horror. I will judge Jerusalem by the same standard I used for Samaria and the same measure I used for the family of Ahab. I will wipe away the people of Jerusalem as one wipes a dish and turns it upside down. Then I will reject even the remnant of my own people who are left, and I will hand them over as plunder for their enemies. For they have done great evil in my sight and have angered me ever since their ancestors came out of Egypt.”

Manasseh also murdered many innocent people until Jerusalem was filled from one end to the other with innocent blood. This was in addition to the sin that he caused the people of Judah to commit, leading them to do evil in the Lord’s sight.

The rest of the events in Manasseh’s reign and everything he did, including the sins he committed, are recorded in The Book of the History of the Kings of Judah. "

2 Kings 21:1,10-17 NLT

"Now when he was in affliction, he implored the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, and prayed to Him; and He received his entreaty, heard his supplication, and brought him back to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God.

He also repaired the altar of the LORD, sacrificed peace offerings and thank offerings on it, and commanded Judah to serve the LORD God of Israel. "2 Chron 33:12,13,16 NKJV

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."

And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:40-43 NKJV

Granted this neglectful behavior is not an example of God's wishes for anyone, however since repentance is a gift of God as opposed to pursuit as a requirement of an individual, the gift is the reason for salvation not the individuals works of pursuit.

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. "Acts 5:31 NASB

Again one can consider the effort of pursuit a gift given by God which would place salvation where it belongs, a gift of God, not a works of man.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."Gal 2:20 KJV

Another way of putting it would be, pursuit is a requirement of salvation but pursuit is provided by the Master of our salvation.

JOY!!!

[LifeHiscost]

Humanity is not pre-saved.

What do you feel Jesus is saying to you in this Word?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 3:16,17 KJV Bold mine LHC

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."1 John 5:12 NKJV

JOY!!!

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Humanity is not pre-saved.

What do you feel Jesus is saying to you in this Word?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 3:16,17 KJV Bold mine LHC

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."1 John 5:12 NKJV

JOY!!!

Were you thinking that everyone has the Son? Why in the world would the apostle even write that if everyone has the Son? Why not just say "Everybody is saved. Everybody has entered into life."

That the world "might" be saved is not "that the world is already saved."

"Whoseover believeth" is not "everybody, whether they believe or not."

[Dr. Rich]

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."Matthew 18:11 KJV This verse does not say that Jesus died to save us from our sins. It is confirming that the words of Jesus is what saves one--not merely believing that Jesus was the Son of Man and the Son of God.

And NO, Jesus did NOT come to save ALL of the people in the world from their sins, but only those who keep all of the ten commandments AND abide in the testimony (words) of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. You will NEVER find anywhere in the words of Jesus where He said that He came to die for our sins. Check it out!