Have you tried and proven Adventism for yourself?

[Guest]

The adversary is angry with this church, and people who are under his control are angry as well. So, I am not surprised by what you have to say.

Very well put Kountzer, AMEN!

[Guest]

or was it sour silk?

Sour silk!

[Neil D]

The so called biblical "proofs" used by the SDA are done by glancing blow looks at scripture out of context with a strong disregard to the genre and context and genuine poor bible study habits by the followers. For example: The SDA love to show Christ and the Apostle Paul attending the synagogue on the Sabbath day. And then use those scriptures as "proofs" that Gentile Christians are obligated to be Jewish Sabbath Keepers. In none of their studies of the Sabbath day do the present the most important facts that both Christ and Paul were JEWS. It is no big deal to find Jews keeping the Sabbath Day.

I find that this is a racial comment on a non-racial subject called "the Sabbath". If Christians are not biased in regards to racist comments, then how can they be considered Christians? For that matter, how can these same christians [please note the little 'c' in "christians"] be considered as children of Abraham, the father/founder of the Christian/Hebrew faith, when "Laws and Statues" were given to him after there was the Sabbath? If/Since the Sabbath was instituted in the garden of Eden, how can it be considered "Jewish"?

As to Paul and Jesus both being Jews, I have a couple of questions that need to be answered here by "B Humble"....If Jesus was NOT a model for mankind, then all the commands AND PROMISES of the OT were for the Jews ALONE. The gentiles were already lost, being that they were beyond redemption. And that is how the Jews felt in Jesus' day. However, that is not what Jesus taught, nor is it what Paul's commission was-That is, he was sent to the Gentiles. Just a bit of history that is overlooked by someone who supports bigotry.

[Guest]

Yep

[LifeHiscost]

While at a campmeeting one year I made a deal with God. I told Him I would try Adventism and if my life got better I would stick with it.

"Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." (Mal. 3:10)

I'm still here.

With no attempt to upstage anyone, for we all have our demons who would like to dissuade us from putting our trust in the Jesus that walks with us, yes I've tried adventism. At first things got better. Then things got worse. Then they got worse yet. Then they got better. And it is very likely that events could get worse, but nothing, and I do say NOTHING can make this promise ineffective in my life, for it is based on the integrity of the One Who made the promise.

"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."John 10:29 NKJV

JOY! JOY! JOY!

[LifeHiscost]

I have a couple of friends involved in Adventism, that caused me to look into the SDA beliefs. I have found it sorely wanting in matters of truth regarding

1. the Sabbath,

2. the state of the dead,

3. the Judgment

4. the EGW prophecies.

5. The Sanctuary Doctrine.

Regarding the 2nd coming of Christ, it has that in common with the vast majority of Christianity.

I feel so sad for you, B Humble. I also looked into each of the doctrines you mention above. And I have found them joyfully uplifting. In fact, the one on the state of the dead, considering it puts people where they are safe and secure instead of fulfilling the lie originated by the prince of darkness, removed a heavy weight from my life that has enabled me to see another of God's promises fulfilled for me and mine.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”" John 8:32 NKJV

JOY! JOY!

[LifeHiscost]

Thanks for that testimony Gerry.

And I agree. But then Truth ain't everything and it does take second place to Love according to scripture. Thus, I think we have much to learn from the other churches with regards to the most important thing.

Sometimes we as SDAs major in minors.

Since Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, how could we have that and not have love since Jesus is God and God is Love? And if we don't have love, do we really have Jesus?

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:23 NKJV

JOY!

[LifeHiscost]

The so called biblical "proofs" used by the SDA are done by glancing blow looks at scripture out of context with a strong disregard to the genre and context and genuine poor bible study habits by the followers. For example: The SDA love to show Christ and the Apostle Paul attending the synagogue on the Sabbath day. And then use those scriptures as "proofs" that Gentile Christians are obligated to be Jewish Sabbath Keepers. In none of their studies of the Sabbath day do the present the most important facts that both Christ and Paul were JEWS. It is no big deal to find Jews keeping the Sabbath Day.

Here's another great one: Haven't you heard the Adventist loudly pronounce 1/2 of a verse that reads: "The Sabbath was made for man"...they never read the other half of the verse or the context together. The context is Christ DEFENDING the disciples for DOING WHAT IS "NOT LAWFUL" on the Sabbath Day. Start reading from Mark 2:23 before you only read 1/2 a verse of 28. On and On it goes with Adventism's shoddy bible study habits.

I admit there is much criticizing by some Adventists to prove they have the "truth", much like the criticism of the post above. Jesus only asks us to preach the Word, not try to prove it. There is a Word that will finish the job of conviction with which those who dismiss the Word will eventually see the Truth revealed.

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11 NKJV

Joy!

[John317]

The Five Ss

The Sanctuary doctrine

The State of the dead

The Seventh day Sabbath

The Spirit of prophecy

The Second coming of Christ

And yes I have.

Me too.

I would add the Three Angels' Messages, which include the "health message."

We have much in common with other Christians, but the doctrines you mentioned are what make Adventism a distinct belief system and way of life. With the exception of the Sanctuary message, all of them are also held by at least one other Christian group, but no other church sees them all as a complete system of truth the way Seventh-day Adventists see them. Having lived about 50 years in Loma Linda where I saw, and experienced, the results of living both inside and outside of Adventism, I can testify that true Adventism really does "work" and is the best & most fulfilling way to live.

[John317]

Regarding the 2nd coming of Christ, it has that in common with the vast majority of Christianity.

But we believe that Christ will come visibly after the "tribulation" (which will not be 7 years long) and that the church goes through the tribulation and is not "raptured" before it occurs. God goes through the tribulation with us and doesn't remove us from it. At the Second Coming, the wicked are all destroyed by the brightness of His coming, whereas the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living, they are made immortal and rise to meet Jesus Christ in the air. In this way they will be forever with the Lord.

The third coming of Christ takes place after the 1000 years when He returns with all the saints and the angels. At that time there will be the Great White Throne Judgment, and the wicked are judged according to the deeds done in the body. Soon thereafter the wicked, including Satan and his evil angels, are consumed by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven. They will be completely burned up, become ashes, and be as if they had never been. Then God will recreate the earth and Christ will live among us here.

[John317]

I have a couple of friends involved in Adventism, that caused me to look into the SDA beliefs.

Are they still your friends? What was your attitude when you began to look into the beliefs?

Quote:

I have found it sorely wanting in matters of truth regarding

1. the Sabbath,

2. the state of the dead,

3. the Judgment

4. the EGW prophecies.

5. The Sanctuary Doctrine.

Well I hope you stay here and ask lots of questions and study the answers. I enjoy studying the beliefs of all religions, including those that are non-Christian, and I also enjoy talking to people about their beliefs.

As I've "talked" with you about these things over the last year (off and on), my impression is that you are not approaching them in order to find out what we believe and why, but you seem to be more interested in showing us how wrong we are, even before you know what we believe. It seems to me that you don't have a very good handle on what we believe, let alone why we believe it. One good thing you should do, I think, is study several histories of the SDA church written by SDAs. The same with doctrinal studies. Don't get your information from people who are opposed to SDAs. I study Jehovah's Witnesses by studying their doctrines from their own books and by talking to them and spending time with them, not by reading or listening to attacks against them. I treat them the same way I would like to be treated. I'm sure you would want people to first get to know you and your beliefs before they start reading or listening to attacks on you.

[John317]

No, it's simply that among Adventism the horror of being wrong is so frightening, they close their eyes so that they cannot see.Just as the Sabbath keeping Jews did with Christ.

My experience is that Adventists are no different that way than other Christians. I read Walter Martin, for instance, and I agree with much that he says, but he was just as much afraid of being wrong as anyone you're talking about. In fact, I believe from exchanging many posts with you that you also have a horror of being wrong.

Quote:

The history that Adventism believes has been rewritten, fabricated and twisted to fit the false prophecies and teachings.

Could you give some examples so I can have an idea of what you're talking about?

Quote:

Adventism has fabricated prophecies that will never happen, like their mark of the beast interpretation, which is completely, and utterly totally false.

OK, are you sure that you need to add "utterly" and "totally" after already using the adjective "completely"? How much more false can something be than "completely false"?

I get the picture that you believe our interpretation concerning the "mark of the beast" is completely false, and that is OK. I don't think that's the most important doctrine of our church, and as far as I'm concerned, I believe it would be better to study other beliefs with you instead of the mark.

You know we are Seventh-day Adventists but we-- I-- don't know what your background is. So would you mind sharing with us what church you fellowship with and also tell us some of your primary beliefs? For instance, are you American Baptist?

Quote:

Yet, they will stake their eternal damnation on a false prophetic vision that will never happen. Because, they love the self adoration of being "special" more than they love Christ.

Let's not assume to read one another's motives. That is never a good thing. It would be different if you could read intentions and motives but of course you can't, and neither can I-- nor do I want to. It is best to leave it up to God,and let Him be the Judge of it.

Why not stick to the issues and not attempt to make attacks against people's motives?

I can promise that we will do likewise and not make personal attacks against you.

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

The so called biblical "proofs" used by the SDA are done by glancing blow looks at scripture out of context with a strong disregard to the genre and context and genuine poor bible study habits by the followers. For example: The SDA love to show Christ and the Apostle Paul attending the synagogue on the Sabbath day. And then use those scriptures as "proofs" that Gentile Christians are obligated to be Jewish Sabbath Keepers. In none of their studies of the Sabbath day do the present the most important facts that both Christ and Paul were JEWS. It is no big deal to find Jews keeping the Sabbath Day.

I find that this is a racial comment on a non-racial subject called "the Sabbath". If Christians are not biased in regards to racist comments, then how can they be considered Christians? For that matter, how can these same christians [please note the little 'c' in "christians"] be considered as children of Abraham, the father/founder of the Christian/Hebrew faith, when "Laws and Statues" were given to him after there was the Sabbath? If/Since the Sabbath was instituted in the garden of Eden, how can it be considered "Jewish"?

As to Paul and Jesus both being Jews, I have a couple of questions that need to be answered here by "B Humble"....If Jesus was NOT a model for mankind, then all the commands AND PROMISES of the OT were for the Jews ALONE. The gentiles were already lost, being that they were beyond redemption. And that is how the Jews felt in Jesus' day. However, that is not what Jesus taught, nor is it what Paul's commission was-That is, he was sent to the Gentiles. Just a bit of history that is overlooked by someone who supports bigotry.

To say that the sabbath commandment was only for the jews is a fairly common tactic to get around the sabbath commandment. A known response is the fact that the sabbath was around at least a thousand, 1,000 years before the jews came into existense.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I personally would have to use shoddy Bible study methods and habits and shut my eyes and ears to history to keep any other day.

No, it's simply that among Adventism the horror of being wrong is so frightening, they close their eyes so that they cannot see.Just as the Sabbath keeping Jews did with Christ. The history that Adventism believes has been rewritten, fabricated and twisted to fit the false prophecies and teachings.

Adventism has fabricated prophecies that will never happen, like their mark of the beast interpretation, which is completely, and utterly totally false. Yet, they will stake their eternal damnation on a false prophetic vision that will never happen. Because, they love the self adoration of being "special" more than they love Christ.

Horrified of being wrong? Perish the thought! I have but ONE agenda - the TRUTH! I was raised a Catholic. It didn't take long and tedious Bible study for me to see all the errors in Catholic doctrine, so I left it. If one loves the TRUTH, he/she should be happy when his/her error is exposed! And the sooner the better so he/she could go on with the Truth! So if you think you have the light, don't be afraid to show/share it. After all, the light of Truth should be shared with those one deems to be in darkness, right? Then we can examine it and see whether it's truly light or darkness. You can take those points in the order as you listed them and that would be fine.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

The so called biblical "proofs" used by the SDA are done by glancing blow looks at scripture out of context with a strong disregard to the genre and context and genuine poor bible study habits by the followers. For example: The SDA love to show Christ and the Apostle Paul attending the synagogue on the Sabbath day. And then use those scriptures as "proofs" that Gentile Christians are obligated to be Jewish Sabbath Keepers. In none of their studies of the Sabbath day do the present the most important facts that both Christ and Paul were JEWS. It is no big deal to find Jews keeping the Sabbath Day.

I find that this is a racial comment on a non-racial subject called "the Sabbath". If Christians are not biased in regards to racist comments, then how can they be considered Christians? For that matter, how can these same christians [please note the little 'c' in "christians"] be considered as children of Abraham, the father/founder of the Christian/Hebrew faith, when "Laws and Statues" were given to him after there was the Sabbath? If/Since the Sabbath was instituted in the garden of Eden, how can it be considered "Jewish"?

As to Paul and Jesus both being Jews, I have a couple of questions that need to be answered here by "B Humble"....If Jesus was NOT a model for mankind, then all the commands AND PROMISES of the OT were for the Jews ALONE. The gentiles were already lost, being that they were beyond redemption. And that is how the Jews felt in Jesus' day. However, that is not what Jesus taught, nor is it what Paul's commission was-That is, he was sent to the Gentiles. Just a bit of history that is overlooked by someone who supports bigotry.

Your questions are good because the manifest the fundamental lack of biblical understanding in Adventism. Adventist while claiming to have all this biblical understanding don't have a simple fundamental understanding as to know the difference between a Jew and an Arab, Japanese, Chinese or Indian. Adventism doesn't know what makes Jews different from the Arabs. They think both are obligated to be Sabbath keepers. IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT IT'S SO FOOLISH!

1st error: there is no scriptural support for "the Sabbath" being "instituted in the garden of Eden". The word Sabbath is not used until Ex.19. The Sabbath was "instituted" as a commandment for ANYONE to keep until the JEWS were commanded to keep it in Exodus 19. No Gentile nations were ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.

2nd error: It's not a matter of racism at all. The Jews were given the Sabbath to keep while the rest of the Gentile world was free from any weekly obligation.

3rd error: If you think keeping the Sabbath day is being a model after Jesus and Paul, you are FAR, FAR, FAR, from the truth. Both Jesus and Paul were circumcised on the 8th day, ritually cleansed, keep the Feasts of booths, Pentecost, Day of Atonement, FEAST OF TRUMPETS, PUT LEAVENING OUT OF THEIR HOUSE, KILLED AND EAT THE PASSOVER LAMB ON CERTAIN DAY, ritual cleansings..etc, NONE OF THE THINGS YOU ADVENTIST DO. If you are going to follow Christ and Paul in their Jewishness DON'T BE HALF A_SED. It makes you look bad.

4th error. The Gentiles who never kept Sabbath Days, feasts ritual cleansings, circumcision of the flesh were saved by faith just as the Jews, who were obligated to keep all the law of Moses because God is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.

[Dr. Shane]

"And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made." (Genesis 2:3)

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

[phkrause]

"And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made." (Genesis 2:3)

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

I was just going to say the same thing Shane. The Sabbath was instituted during the creation week b humble. The only reason God put the commandments on tables of stone is because the world had strayed so far from what God had intended it to be. Even the Jews who were in captivity no longer, probably, kept the Sabbath, because I would imagine that the Egyptians made them work on the Sabbath. And when Moses told Pharoah that the Jews would no longer work that day he made them still do all the work on the other 6 days that previously took 7 days to do. This is why god had to start fresh again. When he called Abram from paganism to start the Hebrew nation in the first place, he did that because the world had strayed from what he originally wanted, so he created a people to show the world how to live, but of course they failed. What did Jesus and Paul do, they went to temple every Sabbath as was there custom. The Sabbath if for no other purpose is to show us that God created the earth and everything that is in it. And look where that has gotten us! Since most of the world worships on Satan's holy day. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with sunday keepers. My sister-in-law is a RC and one of the best examples of a Christian there is, period. But like John mentioned, people need to study for themselves and come up with the truth from there own studies and not the word of anyone one else.

pk

[B Humble]

As I said earlier and you all keep ignoring it, The Adventist don't do what Paul or Jesus did. The Adventist are like some kids, who think if they made their bed, they cleaned up their room. Jesus and Paul were Jews, they kept THE WHOLE JEWISH LAW of all the feasts not some shoddy half a_sed job of the law as Adventist pretend do.

Ah, "Satan's holy day" ? ???? God created the 1st day of the week as well as the 7th. THEY ALL BELONG TO HIM, NO DAY BELONGS TO SATAN. I guess you never read Gen.1 from the beginning, you just started from the seventh day. The scripture says, "the heavens and the earth are MINE and the FULLNESS THEREOF", thus saith the Lord. Pk, your false doctrine is showing up everywhere along with both pure bigotry pure hatred of God's creation. God looked down upon ALL that He created from the 1st day being a day of light to the 7th day being a day of rest and called it "VERY GOOD". I hope you'll take the time to repent before God of the way you have erroneously condemned HIS creation.

You see what your false doctrine does to your soul?? There is no religion on earth that hates a single day God created accept the Adventist. They are guilty of hating the 1st day of the week and the Creator of it. The Sabbath they boast of, while hating the 1st day when God created light and separated it from the darkness. You cannot profess to love God and hate one day and love the other, they are all his. It's time for you to repent of such things.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pk, your false doctrine is showing up everywhere along with both pure bigotry pure hatred of God's creation.

I did not find pk's response bigoted nor showing hatred of God's creation.

Originally Posted By: B Humble

As I said earlier and you all keep ignoring it, The Adventist don't do what Paul or Jesus did.

You don't go into someone else's pool and pee in it.

You obviously have a grudge against Adventists. There are plenty of people on this board who could give you scriptural defense against every contrary remark you have made against Adventists. But why should they? You have made it clear that you think you are right, and you do not seem open to discussion of the issues.

In Genesis 2:3 God blessed the 7th day and made it holy. He didn't call it "very good"...He called it HOLY.

Satan has made Sunday a holy day (God did not make Sunday a holy day). Trying to say that we hate Sunday is silly. Ridiculous.

[teresaq]

As I said earlier and you all keep ignoring it, The Adventist don't do what Paul or Jesus did.....

You see what your false doctrine does to your soul?? There is no religion on earth that hates a single day God created accept the Adventist. They are guilty of hating the 1st day of the week and the Creator of it. The Sabbath they boast of, while hating the 1st day when God created light and separated it from the darkness. You cannot profess to love God and hate one day and love the other, they are all his. It's time for you to repent of such things.

ok, so where is the command to "hallow" the first day of the week? or the second? or the third?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: ...

so it looks to me like the idea of the sabbath is to reflect on what God did the first day, the second, etc.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: ...

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

we are to go out into nature and see how great and awesome our God is. to be thankful for all the blessings He has given us.

but i hope and pray that adventism, true adventism, is about much more than which day is the sabbath.

[Nan]

I always find interesting the dichotomy between personal claims and behaviour/words.

The choice of "b humble" for a name provides one such example.

Sabbath keepers do not "Hate Sunday". They recognise God assigned

different purposes to different days, and honour the purpose for Sabbath

in worship, and for Sunday as the first of the six weekly days of work.

The commandment does not only say Remember the seventh day to keep it holy, it also says, Six days shalt thou labour.

Why is it that those who say we should not keep the Jewish Sabbath, do not

suggest we should bow down to idols or swear and blaspheme God's name? The same law prohibits all three.

[Woody]

Quote:

You don't go into someone else's pool and pee in it.

Good Point Rudywoofs. At least a 'humble' person wouldn't.

HA HA HA HO HO HO HE HE HE

And As Nan has pointed out ... we do honor Sunday for the purpose that God set it apart for:

WORK

[Dr. Shane]

I love Sunday. It's my fun day. And today is Sunday.

[Woody]

Yes. And it is the Olympic Sunday. Go USA USA USA

(Or Swiss or Swedish)

[B Humble]

First, the scripture does not say that the 1st day of the week is a holy day. Nor, does it say that the Sabbath is a holy day for the Gentiles. The scripture does say that the Jews are required to keep the Sabbath holy, it's a sign between God and "the children of Israel", not the Arabs and the Japanese.

Do you all know how utter ignorant (without knowledge) you are, that you don't know the difference between a Jew and and Arab! It's WILLFUL ignorance, not because you can't learn, you don't want to learn. All Christians, the Jews and the Arabs think you a bunch of ignorant fools for being so unlearned that you don't know the difference between a Christian, an Arab and a Jew. You think the Arab has to become Jewish to be Christian. And the Gentile has to become Jewish to be Christian. You all are the most thoroughly confused people in the world.

What is worse, is you take the Sabbath day which was made to be holy and turn it into a tool to both do and speak evil of others, breaking the whole spirit and purpose of the Sabbath. God doesn't accept your Sabbaths, you can not work and go to church till hell freezes over, God won't accept a single one of you Sabbaths until you put away speaking false evil of other Christians, maligning other Christians, and bragging on your false Sabbath Keeping. For you all, the Sabbath is a means to pat yourself on the back and beat up other Christians. It has nothing to do with God at all. God abhors that kind of Sabbath Keeping. Read Isa.2. You all make Sabbath a day to both do and speak evil.