Have you tried and proven Adventism for yourself?

[Guest]

Jesus' very close and loved friend was John.

Ok good. We agree that John is solid, and not a liar like you say Paul is.

1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

According to John, you're spreading lies Rich. He says that faith is how we gain the victory that overcomes. You say the opposite. Who should we believe? John? or you?

And if you say he tripped up and told a lie here in a weak moment, then you have to throw out the book of Revelation too.

All that blather about "prove me wrong, prove me wrong" I wish I had a dollar for every time I have proved you wrong. Yet you shrug it off and keep telling the same lies. This isn't the first time I've shown you this text. But you continue to tell people they don't need faith. The very thing John says gives us the victory.

[John317]

As for EGW and the shaking, when I get time I will get this for you. She did say that there are "MANY, MANY things that we must unlearn in order to learn NEW truth." (Or something like that.) But she did not know everything herself on what was going to happen at the shaking.

Sure, I know the quote well. I believe it was written in 1889. She's saying that we should not feel that we have All the truth and that God still have new truths to teach us.

Since Ellen White wrote that, the church has made major doctinal changes with respect to the Trinity and our prophetic interpretation regarding Armageddon, as well as the nature of Christ, righteousness by faith and numerous other biblical teachings.

People are both shaken out, and into, the church because of the doctrines. But I don't believe she mentioned that new light would cause the shaking. If you know of where she makes such a statement, I'd be interested in seeing it.

In that statement she isn't referring to her own writings and indicating there were doctrinal errors in them, but was speaking about people's "opinions" and "cherished beliefs." People should never think that God doesn't have new truth for us, but she also had warnings about new truths. She said that the fundamental pillars of the faith should never be moved, including the teaching about the heavenly sanctuary. She said new truths should be submitted to the leadership, just as Paul submitted his gospel to the leadership of the church.Gal. 2: 2;Acts 15: 2. God is leading out a church, not a lot of scattered, separate individuals here and there.

However, it is quite true that Ellen White grew spiritually and in her awareness of Bible teachings. She underwent changes, for instances, in her view and understanding of the Trinity, or Godhead. God was gradually leading her along through dreams, visions, and the guidance of the Spirit through reading and Bible study. She never wrote anything on the Godhead that she needed to go back and change, but her views were changing particularly in regard to the Holy Spirit and the full deity of Christ. Her husband was about 10 years behind her but was also changing in some of his views at the time of his death.

[Gerr]

I agree Neil. Their minds are made up. Mine?? Well no, I am still just a truth seeker and if anyone can show me the truth using the words of Jesus or the Old Testament, then have a go. I just don't see where arguing facts with people who place their whole believe from a foundation built from faith is going to cause them to open their eyes.

And Gerry, if Jesus didn't provide everything or give us everything that we need to know for salvation, then His whole ministry was not finished and He lied. I don't believe Jesus ever lied! If you want to believe that He did (lied), then go ahead and put your faith in someone's words that never knew Jesus. Jesus taught and spoke using the Old Testament so He verified that the Old Testament is the truth.

Jesus told His disciples to go to ALL of the Nations, which would include the Gentiles, wouldn't it? Jesus also said that He was going to Heaven (a place) to be with His Father and would not come back until the end. So Gerry, why don't you want to believe that what Jesus said was true? Jesus' very close and loved friend was John. If anyone had a reason for Jesus to come back to tell him something new, it would have been John. But NO, Jesus did NOT come back to this earth to tell John what Jesus' Father told His Son. Jesus had to send an angel John, for if He didn't do this, then what He told them earlier would have been a lie.

So no you have a man that is totally evil with not a wisp of righteousness in him who is filled with hate! Satan used this man in order to dupe him into tweaking the truth so that everyone, including Gentiles (who by the way could repent and no longer be Gentiles) could feel good about being saved by believing in Paul's words instead of the words of Jesus Himself.

Gerry, I was a total Paul believer until I got to Romans 13. All of Romans 13 is a total lie. Satan is the ruler of the human rulers of this world and it is he who sets them up. Gerry, what are you going to do when one of these rulers of the world tell you that you must take the mark of the beast? He will quote to you the words of Paul in Romans 13, and tell you that if refuse to take the mark, that you are disobeying god, (which by the way, will be the truth, because his god is Satan.)

Well Gerry, NO ONE, not even my pastor or the head of the GC is going to force me to believe in a lie. Revelation 21:8 and 22:15 tells one what will happen to those who believe in and practice a lie.

Look Gerry, most of what Paul wrote was absolutely true. If it were not, then it would not be a good counterfeit, right? But I take what Jesus said in Revelation 3:4 to be the absolute truth too. Would you not agree that 144,000 out of all of the SDA church is just a few? Did not Jesus say to go through the narrow gate, for few will be those who do and this is the road to salvation? This alone should cause those who believe like just about every other Christian that something is wrong.

Just to be absolutely sure that I understand you correctly, what portion of Scripture can I be absolutely certain to be true? You have already ruled out Paul since you claim he is a liar. What other parts of the Bible are a lie?

[Dr. Rich]

Richard wrote: "1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

Wow--exactly Richard! Thanks for pointing out that "whoever is born of God overcomes.....even our faith."! Now isn't this what I have been saying all along? When one is actually born of God, there is no longer any need of faith. Why? Because then you are "God"! You name will be "God". You would be in the family of "God". (Just think about this for a minute or two)

As for what is truth and what is a lie in the NT, Gerry, please study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST and then the fiction will stand out when you read what others wrote such as Luke, (for Acts too), Paul's epistles, 1st and 2nd Peter (the writer was clearly not the disciple Peter), Hebrews (unknown who the writer was), and even James who did know Jesus because he was a brother of Jesus, but he was not a disciple and he was not one of those to who Jesus was talking to in John 14 and 17.

And John317, I don't think EGW actually knew what the shaking was all about and when it would take place. Like Paul, she vacillated so many times one could argue for and against an issue just upon what she wrote.

[Neil D]

Richard wrote: "1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

Wow--exactly Richard! Thanks for pointing out that "whoever is born of God overcomes.....even our faith."! Now isn't this what I have been saying all along? When one is actually born of God, there is no longer any need of faith. Why? Because then you are "God"! You name will be "God". You would be in the family of "God". (Just think about this for a minute or two)

"You will become like God".....where have I heard this before.....?

[Guest]

Rich you're getting further and further out there. But you're still telling the same lies. Scripture has no effect on you.

Do you really believe you are, or ever will be God? And I must have missed the part of that text that says we no longer need faith. Do you even have a conscience left?

[Guest]

"You will become like God".....where have I heard this before.....?

I do believe Satan said it in the Garden of Eden.

[Dr. Rich]

Come on you guys, read my lips! I did not say "You will become like God". By the way, Gen. 3:22 shows that God was the one that said Man has become like Us (God)--So what Satan said in verse 5 was NOT a lie.

But you missed the whole point of the issue. (As usual) The family name is "God". Being born of the same mother as was Jesus makes you a sibling of Jesus, therefore your family name is God. Try reading Rev, 3:12 and Rev. 14:1 (That is IF you are wise enough to understand it)

Richard, I was wrong for making fun of what you wrote and I am sorry for that. When one is truly born of God they also will never sin again. John also wrote this too. This is one of the reasons I have said that I have yet to find anyone who has truly been born of God (Holy Spirit). Those people who I have heard who claim this are only kidding themselves.

Adventists don't understand that there will be three medals of victory over sin just like in the Olympics. The 'gold' will be given to the first fruits, the 144,000. The 'silver' will be given to the 5 wise virgins and the 'bronze' will be given to those found in Revelation 7:9-14. Check it out!

[Guest]

When one is truly born of God they also will never sin again. John also wrote this too. This is one of the reasons I have said that I have yet to find anyone who has truly been born of God (Holy Spirit). Those people who I have heard who claim this are only kidding themselves.

Now you're confusing being born again with being sealed.

[Gerr]

Richard wrote: "1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

Wow--exactly Richard! Thanks for pointing out that "whoever is born of God overcomes.....even our faith."! Now isn't this what I have been saying all along? When one is actually born of God, there is no longer any need of faith. Why? Because then you are "God"! You name will be "God". You would be in the family of "God". (Just think about this for a minute or two)

As for what is truth and what is a lie in the NT, Gerry, please study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST and then the fiction will stand out when you read what others wrote such as Luke, (for Acts too), Paul's epistles, 1st and 2nd Peter (the writer was clearly not the disciple Peter), Hebrews (unknown who the writer was), and even James who did know Jesus because he was a brother of Jesus, but he was not a disciple and he was not one of those to who Jesus was talking to in John 14 and 17.

How could a person become so deluded??? But this should not be so incredible, after all, when one abandons the truth, then he's got nothing left but to believe a lie!!! May God have mercy on you and make you see your folly before it's too late.

[TWNolan]

As for what is truth and what is a lie in the NT, Gerry, please study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST and then the fiction will stand out when you read what others wrote such as Luke, (for Acts too), Paul's epistles, 1st and 2nd Peter (the writer was clearly not the disciple Peter), Hebrews (unknown who the writer was), and even James who did know Jesus because he was a brother of Jesus, but he was not a disciple and he was not one of those to who Jesus was talking to in John 14 and 17.

[phkrause]

Now TWNolan, that is beautiful and even within the parameters of Dr. Rich. I wonder what he will say to wiggle is way out of that?

pk

[LifeHiscost]

to:

Matthew

Mark

John

1st John

2nd John

3rd John

Jude

Revelation

Correct? So nothing we say from the "False Scripture" is valid.... hmm....

Thanks for that list of comments on faith, TWNolan. There is one that was left out, maybe it was among those to which Dr Rich does not subscribe.

" For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."Romans 12:3 KJV

I'm assured Dr Rich has faith, unless of course, he's given away the gift entirely. It is where man chooses to exercise his faith that determines where he will be led.

By your post I'm led to believe your faith is in the Word of God, given unto man for the edifying of the body of Christ. Whether that Word is accepted or not, will determine whether faith grows or dies.

The short list on your post would intimate for those who restrict their guidance to that alone, the gift of faith has well nigh perished. Can one continue to exercise faith in God, when refusing to believe those He has sent by His Spirit

as messengers to be believed?

"...and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Tim 3:15-17 NKJV

"And why did he slay him? Because his deeds (activities, works) were wicked and malicious and his brother's were righteous (virtuous).

Do not be surprised and wonder, brethren, that the world detests and pursues you with hatred.

We know that we have passed over out of death into Life by the fact that we love the brethren (our fellow Christians). He who does not love abides (remains, is held and kept continually) in [spiritual] death."1 John 3:12-14 AMP parenthesis brackets theirs LHC

"But he who disowns and denies and rejects and refuses to acknowledge Me before men will be disowned and denied and rejected and refused acknowledgement in the presence of the angels of God." Luke 12:9 AMP

Regards!!

[TWNolan]

Now TWNolan, that is beautiful and even within the parameters of Dr. Rich. I wonder what he will say to wiggle is way out of that?

pk

Thank you

[TWNolan]

Thanks for that list of comments on faith, TWNolan. There is one that was left out, maybe it was among those to which Dr Rich does not subscribe.

Paul wrote Romans, for based on Dr Rich's beliefs, it is invalid

[Dr. Rich]

Anyone today can do a study on faith and yours is no different that mine. Again, I say to you, where did Jesus say anything about (and I say it again) "Righteousness by Faith"? Many of the 'faiths' that you presented could also be 'trust'. What John317 wrote about this issue in another thread I thought was really good and correct for the most part.

Yes, anyone can assume, but then that is not what I was asking for. If you recall, I said that everyone starts out with faith, for without it, there would be no truth to search for.

Question is, "faith in what"? Faith in Jesus, or faith in what Jesus said and taught? Was not Jesus a messenger sent by His Father to testify to the truth? Did not Jesus accomplish His mission even before He died? So, just make sure you don't have 'faith' in the wrong thing.

If any here is an Adventist, then why are you an Adventist? What set's Adventism apart from all the other Christians--or the world for that matter?

Would you accept the 'mark of the beast' when one of the rulers of this world tells you that he was set up by God and if you don't obey him that you are therefore not obeying God--when he quotes Romans 13 to you? I am really interested in how you answer this.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

As for what is truth and what is a lie in the NT, Gerry, please study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses FIRST and then the fiction will stand out when you read what others wrote such as Luke, (for Acts too), Paul's epistles, 1st and 2nd Peter (the writer was clearly not the disciple Peter), Hebrews (unknown who the writer was), and even James who did know Jesus because he was a brother of Jesus, but he was not a disciple and he was not one of those to who Jesus was talking to in John 14 and 17.

So based on what you are saying, we go from:

Matthew

Mark

Luke

John

Acts

Romans

1st Corinthians

2nd Corinthians

Galatians

Ephesians

Philippians

Colossians

1st Thessalonians

2nd Thessalonians

1st Timothy

2nd Timothy

Titus

Philemon

Hebrews

James

1st Peter

2nd Peter

1st John

2nd John

3rd John

Jude

Revelation

to

Matthew

Mark

John

1st John

2nd John

3rd John

Jude

Revelation

Correct? So nothing we say from the "False Scripture" is valid.... hmm....

Quote:

Richard wrote: "1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith."

Wow--exactly Richard! Thanks for pointing out that "whoever is born of God overcomes.....even our faith."! Now isn't this what I have been saying all along? When one is actually born of God, there is no longer any need of faith. Why? Because then you are "God"! You name will be "God". You would be in the family of "God". (Just think about this for a minute or two)

I have done a search for "FAITH" in YOUR authorized Books of the Bible here is what i found:

Matthew 6:30

Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little FAITH ?

Matthew 8:10

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great FAITH , not even in Israel!

Matthew 8:26

But He said to them, "Why are you fearful, O you of little FAITH ?" Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.

Matthew 9:2

Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their FAITH , He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

Matthew 9:22

But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your FAITH has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour.

Matthew 9:29

Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your FAITH let it be to you."

Matthew 14:31

And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little FAITH , why did you doubt?"

Matthew 15:28

Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your FAITH ! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Matthew 16:8

But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "O you of little FAITH , why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?

Matthew 17:20

So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have FAITH as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Matthew 21:21

So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have FAITH and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and FAITH . These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Mark 2:5

When Jesus saw their FAITH , He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

Mark 4:40

But He said to them, "Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no FAITH ?"

Mark 5:34

And He said to her, "Daughter, your FAITH has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction."

Mark 10:52

Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your FAITH has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

Mark 11:22

So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have FAITH in God.

Jude 20

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy FAITH , praying in the Holy Spirit,

Revelation 2:13

"I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My FAITH even in the days in which Antipas was My FAITH ful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Revelation 13:10

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the FAITH of the saints.

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the FAITH of Jesus.

Revelation 2:19

"I know your works, love, service, FAITH , and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.

1 John 5:4

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.

Here is the explaintion of what 1 John 5:4 mean:

Faith is the Thing that is "Born of God". We have NO faith without God's help and with God's help (or FAITH) we can overcome the world.

Dr (of what?) Rich,

I am sorry to say your "evidence" is not holding up in court.

I would have to say that Jesus sure did emphasize that word faith a lot, for it not to have any value. Rich is preaching a different gospel than Jesus OR Paul. It's altogether different.

[Dr. Rich]

Again Richard, where is it found that Jesus said that Righteousness was only because of faith? Your dance around the real issue is quite amazing. No one is arguing that faith/trust in what Jesus said and taught is not important!

[Guest]

Then why do you tell people they don't need faith? Jesus said it over and over in more ways than one. But you choose not to aknowledge it.

You also choose to ignore when John says it. Which last time I checked was still on the three muskateers approved list.

1Jn 5:4 ......and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

[Musicman1228]

But 'faith' and 'truth' are synonymous, aren't they?

[phkrause]

Then why do you tell people they don't need faith? Jesus said it over and over in more ways than one. But you choose not to aknowledge it.

You also choose to ignore when John says it. Which last time I checked was still on the three muskateers approved list.

1Jn 5:4 ......and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

And they say that dancing is not something SDAs do.

pk

[Guest]

Quote:

But 'faith' and 'truth' are synonymous, aren't they?

NO, but if you check a dictionary, you'll see that faith and trust are.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Then why do you tell people they don't need faith? Jesus said it over and over in more ways than one. But you choose not to aknowledge it.

You also choose to ignore when John says it. Which last time I checked was still on the three muskateers approved list.

1Jn 5:4 ......and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

And they say that dancing is not something SDAs do.

pk

You're using that term pretty loosely if you're applying it to them.