What does this mean?

[Overaged]

Overaged wrote: "I understand what you are saying about "the sin of presumption;" and your statement touches on the very reason I had asked Dr Rich for specific book and page number reference for his comment. I don't believe he had the correct context of Mrs White's statement in view when he made the statement about theaters; in fact, if we could see the exact quote he was referring to; it would likely say something quite different than what he was insinuating."

Actually, I did not insinuate anything--I ASKED A QUESTION! I was hoping someone would bite on this and they did. I do NOT know if she said this or not--it was probably my mother who might have said she did to keep me from sneaking out to see "Cat On A Hot Tin Roof"!

PS--I snuck out anyway and felt so guilty I threw up!

Well my friend I am glad that you got to "sneak out" but do you really think your Mom had no idea about you doing such things? LOL, I would not think so.

But about you "insinuating something;" it cannot be true that you did not insinuate something. I can see that perhaps you did not do it intentionally; but just because you "asked a question" does not follow that you did not insinuate a particular train of thought. Jesus, asked 352 questions, in just the four gospels, and every single one of them made a specific statement/insinuation in addition to the obvious question being asked.

If it was your Mom that told you Ellen White said this, then that would be your reference point for the statement, so I don't have a problem with that; but I would still question the context and use of "Ellen White said" in your last statement which I was refering to.

[Musicman1228]

I just sent the e-mail with my address in it. Now everyone knows. LOL

I will get the book off on Monday.

[Dr. Rich]

Good point and well taken. And yes, mom knew all along. But that brings up a good point. How many times do we (people) say something about what we think EGW said, when she may not have said it? Before the computer age and before we could do an easy search, people could say anything and then blame it on what they supposed EGW said and it would be hard to know if that was true or not.

Here is the thing, ever since mom told me that, I believed that EGW said it. Who knows? Since I grew up sincerely believing in her words, it was a real shock to find that she was just a human like all of us are.

[pnattmbtc]

The writers of Scripture were just humans like the rest of us too.

[Overaged]

Good point and well taken. And yes, mom knew all along. But that brings up a good point. How many times do we (people) say something about what we think EGW said, when she may not have said it? Before the computer age and before we could do an easy search, people could say anything and then blame it on what they supposed EGW said and it would be hard to know if that was true or not.

Here is the thing, ever since mom told me that, I believed that EGW said it. Who knows? Since I grew up sincerely believing in her words, it was a real shock to find that she was just a human like all of us are.

What? Are you saying that ADVENTISTS ARE HUMAN TOO? This is an outrage! Maybe I had better send some Jesuit bouncers after you!

[Dr. Rich]

Well, she did say she was the 'lessor light' didn't she? What did that mean?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Since I grew up sincerely believing in her words, it was a real shock to find that she was just a human like all of us are.

Of course she was just human like anyone else. She never claimed to be anything else. Moses was just human like us too. So was Isaiah. But they were inspired in a way that we're not. God gave them visions and dreams. I've never received a vision or dream from God that I know of. The Holy Spirit helped them write out God's messages for His people and for the world.

So when you learned she was a human being, it blew you over. That wouldn't have happened if you had correctly understood her and how she wrote to begin with. That happens to lot of people after their false ideas about Ellen White are shown to be false. There are a lot of people in the SDA church who get wrong ideas about doctrinal issues, from the IJ to the SOP. It's sad and unfortunate, especially when they blame the church or begin to attack it as if it is the church's fault.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Well, she did say she was the 'lessor light' didn't she? What did that mean?

It means that she was raised up to point people to the Bible, because people hadn't been studying and obeying it like they should have. She acknowledged that the Bible is the standard of faith and doctrine.

[oldsailor29]

Well, she did say she was the 'lessor light' didn't she? What did that mean?

she was a lesser light in the same way as all divinely inspired people are lesser lights. They can lead us to the greater light, which is Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Rich]

I respectfully disagree. And of course I had already known she was 'human' and that was NOT what I meant and if you didn't get what I meant that is your problem. EVERYONE was human except for Jesus, and that is why I choose His words over everyone else.

[Musicman1228]

Jesus was, and is, and always will be human, just as He was, is, and always will be God. No conflict.

[Dr. Rich]

So let me get this right---a 'lessor light' is anyone who leads people to Jesus Christ? Is that what it means to let your light shine and don't put it under a bushel? Could that be the meaning of the lamps (lamp stands) found in Rev. 1? If so, then why didn't she just say that instead of implying that only SHE was the lessor light?

[pnattmbtc]

The lesser light is a temple reference.

There were two pulpits from which the Scriptures were read, one for the writings of Moses (the greater light) and one from the Prophets (the lesser light). The first pulpit was to the right of the torah (from the standpoint of one on "stage" looking to the audience) and the other one to the right of that (from the standpoint of the audience; nothing is every to the left).

[Dr. Rich]

Ok, thanks, I never knew that before. But when you wrote: "The writers of Scripture were just humans like the rest of us too.", actually, that is not all that correct. Moses is now in heaven, so even though he was human, he is now a spiritual being. The disciples were eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry so their testimony/writing would take priority over hearsay eveidence. So who do you believe the person is as found in Matthew 24:45? Would the words of this person be important?

[Guest]

Quote:

So who do you believe the person is as found in Matthew 24:45? Would the words of this person be important?

That would be every faithful Christian who is awaiting the soon return of Jesus. And their words would be very important, because they are going to be judged by them.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ...if you didn't get what I meant that is your problem. EVERYONE was human except for Jesus, and that is why I choose His words over everyone else.

No doubt you mean she was not inspired by God or that she did not receive visions from God. But she was inspired by God and she did receive many visions from God.

[wayfinder]

Quote:

So who do you believe the person is as found in Matthew 24:45? Would the words of this person be important?

That would be every faithful Christian who is awaiting the soon return of Jesus. And their words would be very important, because they are going to be judged by them.

Matthew 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time ?

46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Slave here is singular

Strong's Number: 1401 Transliterated Word Doulos

Definition

a slave, bondman, man of servile condition

Slave here is plural

Strong's Number: 4889 Transliterated Word Sundoulos

Definition

a fellow servant, one who serves the same master with another

the associate of a servant (or slave)

Matthew 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first ?"

11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things ;

12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

How many John the Baptists were there, amongst all the Jews at Christ's time?

Jesus promised that an Elijah/John the Baptist type prophet would appear and restore all things, just before His(Christ's) appearing. Would you not want to be associated with this person, I know I would.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Moses is now in heaven, so even though he was human, he is now a spiritual being.

Sure, he's now in heaven, but we were talking about the fact that he was just a fallen human being like all other humans at the time he served as God's prophet. Prophets are humans too, and they make errors and all of them committed sins.

Moses is still a human being and will always be a human being, albeit a glorified one.

[Dr. Rich]

So John are you saying that Moses is not a spiritual being? How did he show up here on earth from heaven if he is not a spiritual being?

Are not the 144k going to be spiritual beings? How about the 5 wise virgins?

Ellen White said she was going to be among the 144,000. Do you still think that this is true? Why?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Ellen White said she was going to be among the 144,000. Do you still think that this is true?

Where?

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, thanks, I never knew that before. But when you wrote: "The writers of Scripture were just humans like the rest of us too.", actually, that is not all that correct.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "No doubt you mean she was not inspired by God or that she did not receive visions from God. But she was inspired by God and she did receive many visions from God."

John, your attitude is one that is very childish. Muslims believe that same thing about their prophet as you do, so what make Mohammad different than EGW? Or Paul for that matter?

Just because YOU say so does NOT make it true. I have an idea--why don't we go to the writings of those who we all agree are inspired by God and make this a test for everyone else? How inventive is this? I can't believe no one thought of this before???

[Guest]

John wrote: "No doubt you mean she was not inspired by God or that she did not receive visions from God. But she was inspired by God and she did receive many visions from God."

John, your attitude is one that is very childish. Muslims believe that same thing about their prophet as you do, so what make Mohammad different than EGW? Or Paul for that matter?

Just because YOU say so does NOT make it true.

And you think your say so does????!

John can back up his beliefs with scripture. The only way scripture backs up your dogma, is if it is drastically skewed. I've seen how you add things that aren't there, and ignore things that are.

[John317]

Quote:

John 3:17: "No doubt you mean she was not inspired by God or that she did not receive visions from God. But she was inspired by God and she did receive many visions from God.

I've read the Koran many times, and believe me, it's not inspired by the God who inspired the Bible and Ellen White.

Some time we should sit down and go over the differences between the Koran, the Bible, and the Spirit of prophecy. Also look at the similarities between the Bible and the SOP.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Just because YOU say so does NOT make it true.

Of course not. I'm not suggesting you or anyone else should simply take my word for what Ellen White said or for who she was. I urge everyone to study the Bible and study her life and writings for himself and make up his own mind. I can't accept Christ for anyone, and in the same way, it doesn't do anyone else any good for me to believe in Ellen White. We all have to decide what we believe and who we will obey.

But what I am saying, Dr. Rich, is that the SDA church accepts Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God, and I do too. That is what I've decided after many years of reading her and studying her life and prophetic ministry. I have no doubt she was genuine, the real article. I know you've decided to reject her. That's your perogative, but you are in the SDA church, and it accepts Ellen White as a true prophet of God. It doesn't accept Mohammad. And I thought you were a Seventh-day Adventist, so I am surprised that you would ask such a question about Mohammad. It would be different if you were Muslim, but you tell people you are SDA.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I have an idea--why don't we go to the writings of those who we all agree are inspired by God and make this a test for everyone else? How inventive is this? I can't believe no one thought of this before???

My friend, I'm not going to let you or anyone else cheat me of the WHOLE WORD OF GOD, and that includes the writings of the great Apostle Paul. So I would refuse not to quote Paul, Hebrews, Mark, Luke, James, Jude, 1 and 2 Peter. But I would happy to sit down with you over a wonderful meal while we look at all these questions. In fact, I look forward to it. I know we will have a great discussion over delicious food just like we did the last time. We could talk (and eat!) for 5 or 6 hours. :-)

[Guest]

Can you eat for five hours John?