What does this mean?

[Guest]

Matt 24:49 is not talking about the ten virgins. And as usual you are only speculating as to what put them to sleep, because the Bible doesn't say.

I have never seen anyone who believed so much in mere speculation as you three.

[Musicman1228]

All Ten bridesmaids went to sleep out on the road because the Bridegroom did not come when they thought He would. What is it that can cause a person to become foolish, that is, make a fool of themselves? In the case of the 5 Foolish Bridesmaids it is evident that they believe something that the 5 Wise do not. We see in the previous account of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant that IF that servant had turned wicked he would have gone out and gotten drunk with those that were already drunk. Who, and drunk on what? In the spiritual sense it must be lies, as the truth will only make one sober. If this is speculation then so-be-it.

Richard, you keep saying things that you don't back up with fact. Why is that, I wonder?

[Overaged]

Matt 24:49 is not talking about the ten virgins. And as usual you are only speculating as to what put them to sleep, because the Bible doesn't say.

I have never seen anyone who believed so much in mere speculation as you three.

I have to agree with you Richard. When Mathew 24:49 says "smite his fellow servants;" it is speaking of a wicked servant, who, supposing he would not be called to account, and abusing his authority, gave himself up to oppression, carousing, and debauchery. This text is designed to represent the conduct of ministers who are unfaithful and over-bearing, and who abuse their trust in the church.

The parable of the ten virgins in Mat 25 is obviously quite a different matter.

[Overaged]

In the case of the 5 Foolish Bridesmaids it is evident that they believe something that the 5 Wise do not.

If this is speculation then so-be-it.

"So be it?" And you have the nerve to then accost Richard for "not providing evidence?" Hmmmm, I smell a rat.

Let me ask you a question. What or who makes that call at midnight, in Mat 25:6? And how would you prove it from the text of Mathew 25?

[Guest]

All Ten bridesmaids went to sleep out on the road because the Bridegroom did not come when they thought He would. What is it that can cause a person to become foolish, that is, make a fool of themselves? In the case of the 5 Foolish Bridesmaids it is evident that they believe something that the 5 Wise do not. We see in the previous account of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant that IF that servant had turned wicked he would have gone out and gotten drunk with those that were already drunk. Who, and drunk on what? In the spiritual sense it must be lies, as the truth will only make one sober. If this is speculation then so-be-it.

Richard, you keep saying things that you don't back up with fact. Why is that, I wonder?

[Guest]

Quote:

We see in the previous account of the Faithful and Wise Bondservant

That isn't referring to the ten virgins. Besides, I thought you said that wasn't a parable, but a prophecy.

Quote:

that IF that servant had turned wicked he would have gone out and gotten drunk with those that were already drunk. Who, and drunk on what? In the spiritual sense it must be lies, as the truth will only make one sober. If this is speculation then so-be-it.

Anytime you have to use the phrase "It must be" that means there is no proof for what you are saying, and it is therefore SPECULATION.

[Overaged]

re Mat 25:5, the words "slumbered" or "slept" can mean either in the literal or in the figurative sense. In Rom 13:11, the apostle says: "It is now high time to wake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

It is easy to see how that neither Paul, nor the people he was speaking to at this time were literally asleep, and there is no reason to suppose otherwise, in the case of the ten virgins of Mathew 25. "While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept."

The one thing the Bible is clear on, is that this kind of "sleep" is where people are not expecting Jesus. They are quite comfortable in their current spiritual attainments, and then something happens to "wake" them up.

In Mathew 25, the "call" goes out at "midnight." And only the five who have the Word of God, WITH the "oil" (Holy Spirit) heed and interpret the call correctly because even though faulty, like the five foolish, their hearts were right with Jesus; and they accepted the "oil" to "convict them of sin."

[Dr. Rich]

Yes overaged, that is what it says and I am not arguing with that. But don't you think it would be wise to know who it is that wakes them up? And perhaps why they fell asleep while comfortable in their belief?

[Overaged]

Yes overaged, that is what it says and I am not arguing with that. But don't you think it would be wise to know who it is that wakes them up? And perhaps why they fell asleep while comfortable in their belief?

Of course; this is what I have asked about above. What or who gives that midnight cry since ALL TEN were asleep? And I might add that perhaps you could rethink your use of "who" for the textual evidence does not supply a "who" as Richard and others have said. What is the significance of all ten being asleep Dr Rich?

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "So you're saying since the speculation is yours it must be truth. I think this is how you arrived at most of what you believe is truth. But you say I need proof. The proof is in the text. It doesn't say why they went to sleep. Not one word. Nothing about them believing something wrong, or anything else. So of course you're going to throw in your speculation. Call it truth, and say: so-be-it."

No Richard, you missed the point. I am not and have never said you must believe me just because I say it. What I said and what I meant, and what you obviously missed, is that I just don't care what you believe. What you believe and why is entirely up to you.

I find that the context tells me why the 10 bridesmaids went to sleep. It is right there in front of you. They ALL went to sleep because the Bridegroom delayed His coming. That is what it says. (Incidentally, EGW said that the 5 foolish went to sleep, and the 5 wise just got drowsy. This contradicts the prophecy.)

As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.  Matt. 25:5.

From this I understand that the bridesmaids became bored or tired of waiting for the Bridegroom who said He was coming on a specific date, but didn't. The bridesmaids were very disappointed that He didn't come when they thought/knew He would. Yet even in their disappointment they did not go back to where they came from (the churches in the world), but stayed out on the road, and there fell asleep.

I also find it interesting that when they went to sleep all Ten had oil because all Ten had lamps/lanterns/torches that were burning with the light of prophecy and with a holy fervor (Rev.3:1-2). This prophecy was that which they discovered for themselves through the Holy Spirit who gave the initial information to Wm Miller. This group was 'on fire' for the Lord and for prophecy, hence the burning lamps.

I hesitate to say what I believe caused them to give up searching the Scriptures and the prophecies for themselves, but give it up they did. It is this 'giving up' that is the spiritual sleep which all Ten encountered while still out on the road waiting for a delaying Bridegroom. What could possibly have caused this to happen? I will only say this; when all the answers to prophetic and Scriptural question are handed to you on a silver platter by someone to whom you have given Scriptural authority why would you make the effort to gain any kind of personal understanding. At that point there is no reason for you to do your own investigations into what is true and what isn't. This is especially true when this Scriptural authority becomes the central prominent feature of your movement/group/church and to question or criticize that authority would bring upon you ridicule, scorn, and even excommunication from that body of believes (this happens often).

This understanding fits the specifications of the prophecy perfectly, especially when you compare the Matt. 25 prophecy with Rev. 2:19-23.

To find out who awakened them all you must do is go back to the previous prophecy in Matt. 24: 45-51. It is the Faithful and Wise bondservant and His fellow bondservants (groomsmen) that give the cry at midnight ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ They give this 'cry' because the Bridegroom came to them and sealed them even as the Ten bridesmaids slept (Matt.25:6).

The reason that the 5 foolish bridesmaids did not have any oil (Holy Spirit) when they were awakened by this 'cry' is that before they went to sleep they had put their total belief and faith in someone in whom they placed great authority but who did not have the Holy Spirit. When these 5 foolish bridesmaids awakened they still had this belief and refused to recognize their error until it was too late, and the door to the marriage feast was shut on them.

[Dr. Rich]

All ten being asleep means that they are all in the same boat (Kingdom of Heaven). This then would agree with the wheat and tares all being together in the same boat, the Kingdom of Heaven. Both places prove that the ten virgins can't be the kingdom of the world.

But the same prophecy is found in Rev. 2:3 in the message to "Sardis". It is here where you find that a FEW are not asleep as the rest of the Kingdom of Heaven. These 'few' are the 144k.

In Matt. 24:45 we see that the ONE good and faithful servant (the one promised as the Elijah type) will be feeding the fellow servants when the Master comes. This feeding is the same thing as giving them food (spiritual truth) when this happens. Therefore, it should be clear that the 'Elijah type as the ONE left in charge of the Master's house, AND the 144K (the few in Sardis) are the ones who wake up the rest of the Kingdom of Heaven because Jesus has already come and they did not see Him come. Anyway, this is from my perspective.

[Overaged]

No Richard, you missed the point. I am not and have never said you must believe me just because I say it. What I said and what I meant, and what you obviously missed, is that I just don't care what you believe. What you believe and why is entirely up to you.

I find that the context tells me why the 10 bridesmaids went to sleep. It is right there in front of you. They ALL went to sleep because the Bridegroom delayed His coming. That is what it says. (Incidentally, EGW said that the 5 foolish went to sleep, and the 5 wise just got drowsy. This contradicts the prophecy.)

I think Richard is quite correct in what he has said to you. You make many unsubstantiated statements. 1/ Tell us what book and page number Ellen White says this about the ten virgins of Mat 25. To just say it without giving the reference is speculation. 2/ You have stated more than once to more than one how that you "don't care" what others think. A lot of questions could be asked about that. 3/ The text of Mat 25 does say that the Bridegroom delayed His coming, and thatall ten of the virgins went to sleep; but there is not a single shred of evidence in any of your posts to prove definitively that the delay was the cause of their falling asleep.

Maybe you can give an answer from the textual evidence of Mat 25 alone to what DR Rich seems to be avoiding? What is the Bible writer's intentions and meaning with his use of the phrase "ten virgins?" And what is it that gives this midnight cry? The answer is in the text. No need to go looking anywhere else.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Yes overaged, that is what it says and I am not arguing with that. But don't you think it would be wise to know who it is that wakes them up? And perhaps why they fell asleep while comfortable in their belief?

Of course; this is what I have asked about above. What or who gives that midnight cry since ALL TEN were asleep? And I might add that perhaps you could rethink your use of "who" for the textual evidence does not supply a "who" as Richard and others have said. What is the significance of all ten being asleep Dr Rich?

Matthew 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

The prophecy of the return of the Bridegroom contains symbols and events that are consistant and in the context of the marriage process. By understanding the marriage process that Jesus used as the framework for His going away and return, then one is able to understand all the information given. Jesus said and Matthew recorded, that at the time of the return of the Bridegroom the bridesmaids/kingdom of heaven, are all asleep. He then goes on the explain why they are all asleep. He said "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto", so this is a symbol and not a literal account, in other words, there were more then ten individuals who went out to meet the Bridegroom. The number ten appears in the context of judgment and law. I think in this case the reference is to, the kingdom consists of those who keep the commandments of God therefore; the ten bridesmaids are representing the ten commandments, which is the covenant of the kingdom.

.......more to follow.......

[Dr. Rich]

"what DR Rich seems to be avoiding?" Perhaps you didn't read what I posted just about yours when you wrote that. Then I understand.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

In the same prophecy, given by Jesus about His return, He likens this return as that of a "thief in the night", He is not saying He is a thief who comes to steal, but His coming is as unexpected and surprising as that of a thief. This information is given as advanced warning of this unexpected return. Matthew 24:42-51 is the account of the bondservants of Jesus and I will not post these verses here, but you can read them in your Bible. Since Jesus is the Bridegroom, than His bondservants are the Groom's men/servants. The marriage process, concerning the groom's men, goes like this. When the father of the bridegroom reveals to his son that he now can go get his bride, the bridegroom sends his servants on ahead of him, because it is imperative that the bride be ready to go with the bridegroom when he arrives at her door. The servants go on ahead of the bridegroom to tell the bridesmaids the bridegroom is on his way. The bridesmaids then go the brides house and prepare her to meet the bridegroom. So Jesus is following this process in the information concerning His return. Revelation 1:1 tells us that the Father revealed the time for the wedding to His Son and His Son gave this information to His servants. Matthew 24:42-51 and Revelation 1:1-3 and Revelation 3:1-6 are all connected. This is the sequence Jesus reveals to us about the time of His return. The Kingdom of Heaven appeared and was separated from the world when those who believed the Bridegroom was going to come on a certain day. They went out to meet Him, but He did not come. They continued to wait for His soon return and eventually fell asleep.

..........more to follow........

[Overaged]

"what DR Rich seems to be avoiding?" Perhaps you didn't read what I posted just about yours when you wrote that. Then I understand.

Sorry my friend. LOL, I see you posted that a second or two after my post. I am gone for a couple of days now, but will be back. LOL, and yes! That is a threat! Take care!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

No Richard, you missed the point. I am not and have never said you must believe me just because I say it. What I said and what I meant, and what you obviously missed, is that I just don't care what you believe. What you believe and why is entirely up to you.

I find that the context tells me why the 10 bridesmaids went to sleep. It is right there in front of you. They ALL went to sleep because the Bridegroom delayed His coming. That is what it says. (Incidentally, EGW said that the 5 foolish went to sleep, and the 5 wise just got drowsy. This contradicts the prophecy.)

I think Richard is quite correct in what he has said to you. You make many unsubstantiated statements. 1/ Tell us what book and page number Ellen White says this about the ten virgins of Mat 25. To just say it without giving the reference is speculation. 2/ You have stated more than once to more than one how that you "don't care" what others think. A lot of questions could be asked about that. 3/ The text of Mat 25 does say that the Bridegroom delayed His coming, and thatall ten of the virgins went to sleep; but there is not a single shred of evidence in any of your posts to prove definitively that the delay was the cause of their falling asleep.

Maybe you can give an answer from the textual evidence of Mat 25 alone to what DR Rich seems to be avoiding? What is the Bible writer's intentions and meaning with his use of the phrase "ten virgins?" And what is it that gives this midnight cry? The answer is in the text. No need to go looking anywhere else.

Overaged, my friend,

Note the highlighted statement above. This is just what I wrote about in my last post. From my perspective you have just placed yourself in with the 5 foolish bridesmaids who are asleep because they give Scriptural authority to someone who is not a legitimate Scriptural authority. You are making EGW equal or superior in authority to that of Scripture, especially Scripture written by the eyewitnesses to the ministry of Jesus Christ. Apparently to you Bible study begins with what EGW says, and this supplies your context for understanding of prophecy. I find this distressing.

My statement that "I don't care what anyone else believes" applies only to my method of Bible study. I do care about you, but I am not going to put your beliefs into my understanding JUST because you make a statement of belief. What you believe is entirely up to you, and should be based only on your own understanding as guided by the Holy Spirit.

You mentioned 'the Bible writer's intention' as if Matthew is making these prophetic statements and not Jesus Christ. The intention of the Bible Writer does apply to Paul and others the writings of whom are included in the New Testament. The intentions of the eyewitness gospel writers have absolutely NOTHING to do with what Jesus said. These eyewitnesses wrote only what God caused them to remember about what Jesus said an did during His ministry on earth.

As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. Matt.25:5.

What about this statement do you find difficult to understand? Jesus said that all Ten of the Bridesmaids went to sleep, prefaced by the statement that the Bridegroom delayed His coming. The two statements are integral to each other. So yes, i do believe that because the Bridegroom delayed His coming that the bridesmaids became drowsy and went to sleep.

I think a more important question would be "Why did the Bridegroom delay His coming?"

[wayfinder]

Revelation 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die ; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

The messages to the seven assemblies/churches, are messages directed to and concerning only the kingdom of heaven and it's condition and charicter, including priests and people. I make this conclution based upon the representation of the candelstick. The seven assemblies/churches are each represented by a candelstick. This is not a candestick with one light on it, as represented in pictures, but with seven lights. The candelstick that God has used consistantly to represent His kingdom has seven lights on it. We are told that the seven candelsticks represent the seven assemblies/kingdom of heaven.

With this information we can connected the prophecies. The ten bridesmaids/kingdom all fall asleep. The message to Sardis/kingdom contains in the first part a wakeup call, with an added warning,

Revelation 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard ; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Jesus prophecy in Matthew 24 and 25 can be connected to this message to Sardis, because of the identical events. The coming like a thief. The warning if you do not wakeup.

Revelation 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments ; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

These few people are the bondservants discribed in Matthew 24:42-51, also depicted as 144,000. So all the information we have tells us this.

At the time of the "coming like a thief" there will be a small group (144,000) who heeded the wakeup call while the rest of the kingodm slept. The Bridegroom sends the 144,000 on ahead of Him to awaken His sleeping kingdom, so they can be prepared to "make His bride ready". The "coming like a thief" occurs prior to the casting down of the censer and the sounding of the trumpets (great tribulation). Yes the 144,000 and the kingdom have their probation close before the trumpets, but that is another account.

[Guest]

Overaged, my friend,

Note the highlighted statement above. This is just what I wrote about in my last post. From my perspective you have just placed yourself in with the 5 foolish bridesmaids who are asleep because they give Scriptural authority to someone who is not a legitimate Scriptural authority. You are making EGW equal or superior in authority to that of Scripture, especially Scripture written by the eyewitnesses to the ministry of Jesus Christ. Apparently to you Bible study begins with what EGW says, and this supplies your context for understanding of prophecy. I find this distressing.

MM, you are the one who made the Ellen White statement. Claiming that she said something, with no reference to back it up. (I have seen you do this many times) All O/A did was ask you for a reference. Now you are trying to deflect the question by going on and on about how he places too much authority on Ellen White, when he didn't even mention Ellen White. YOU DID!!!

LOL. You must be used to people just taking your word for how things are, because that's usually all you have to offer. I would venture a guess that the only kind of people who really listen to you, are the ones who have never studied for themselves. (may God be with them)

Why don't you just tell the truth, and say you don't have a reference to back up your claim of what "EGW said". People would respect you more for saying that, than for beating all around the bushes trying to change the subject. That you brought up. I find your response laughable.

[Guest]

(Incidentally, EGW said that the 5 foolish went to sleep, and the 5 wise just got drowsy. This contradicts the prophecy.)

[Guest]

(Incidentally, EGW said that the 5 foolish went to sleep, and the 5 wise just got drowsy. This contradicts the prophecy.)

By the way, I did my own search on this. The word drowsy appears 42 times in the writings of Ellen White. Not one of them has anything to do with the parable of the ten virgins.

You told a lie MM. Either out of ignorance, or intentionally. No wonder you tried to change the subject when Overaged asked you for a reference.

Which leads me to believe it was intentional. You knew that she didn't say that. This is what I'm talking about when I refer to the lies and garbage that you continually spew all over this forum. You should be ashamed, but I know you have none.

[Guest]

But make no mistake musicman. God sees what you are doing.

Matt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard wrote: "Reference please!" Check out the 'Clear Word Bible'.

[Guest]

Why?

[Dr. Rich]

why? Reference!