What does this mean?

[Musicman1228]

We have a Savior, the issue is "What are you going to do with Him?" To say that you 'love' Jesus and then CHOOSE to not keep His Commandments means that you are a liar. To declare that you are "Born Again" and continue to sin FOR ANY REASON is stating that you are not. No one that is truly 'born of the Spirit' will participate in sinning, so if you say you are born again and sin you are actually stating that you are born of the false holy spirit, the spirit that masquerades as the real Holy Spirit. This false spirit is seen in prophecy as the 'Scarlet woman' riding the Beast of Rev.13. Anyone, under any condition that continues to sin and disobey God IS ABSOLUTELY NOT born of the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. This is the greatest deception that Satan has offered, and most Christians have taken it hook-line-and sinker.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: My point in mentioning Joseph Smith was to point out that the LDS church views him in a totally different light than do people of other religions. To most main stream Christian denominations Joseph Smith is a joke, anathema to both common sense and truth.

OK, sure. I understand. He's not a joke to me, although I do believe he was a false prophet, but I have a Mormon friend in FB that I've been writing to for over two years, and I would never show disrespect to his prophet. I ask him questions about Smith's writings and about Mormon doctrines but I don't attack my friend or attack his prophet. I tell him I don't believe in Smith but there's a way of doing it without being offensive. You don't do it by calling a prophet names or by saying someone's a liar, even if you believe they were. Honesty doesn't mean we have to tell people everything that comes to our mind. You don't do that when you value someone as a person and as a friend. I have close friends who are Muslim, and I don't believe the Koran but there are some things I say and other things that are better left unsaid. If I told them exactly what I think about the Koran, they would be highly offended, and then I probably wouldn't ever have a chance to talk to them again.

Quote:

Musicman: There are many Christian denominations that view EGW and the SDA church in a similar light. To them we are a cult not a religion because we claim a prophet that to them shows antipathy to commonly held Christian dogma. I am not saying this is bad for us, I am just recognizing the facts.

Sure, OK. I know what you're talking about. There are many misinformed people. There are also many who either haven't studied her or who have decided to reject Ellen White or SDA doctrines for one reason or another. Think of all the people who rejected Christ. Just because someone or even a doctrine is rejected doesn't mean it's wrong.

Quote:

Musicman: When Ellen White appeared on the scene as the prophet of the Adventists there were LOTS of 'prophets' commanding the attention of the religious establishments in both the USA and Europe. To be associated with a 'prophet' was fashionable and exciting.

I believe it's no coincidence that both Mormonism and Christian Science was founded about the same time by prophets. Satan knew that God was going to raise up a prophet and the remnant church about that time, and he always brings in counterfeits. He knows the prophecies. He knew that was the end of the 2300 days and the end of the 1260 year prophecy. Ever notice the similarity between Mormonism, JWs and SDAs? Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844, the year of the Great Disappointment. How remarkable is that? I believe Satan creates many diversions: as for instance, the communist movement (1848) and about the same time, the evolutionary theory. Guess who was born in 1844? Frederick Neitzsche, the father of modern atheism, a man who influenced the rise of the Nazi movement and WW II (whether he would have liked it or not). Personally, on the basis of my study of Neitzsche, I believe Neitzsche would have despised the Nazis and Hitler.

Quote:

Musicman: After the Great Embarrassment the Advent believers needed something upon which to rebuild their credibility with the religious establishments.

Now you're going off into pure conjecture. What evidence do you have for this?

When an SDA speaks of it as "the Great Embarrassment" it just tells me that they have something seriously wrong somewhere, MM. It shows me that you don't understand the Investigative Judgment and the reason for God's raising up the SDA church. I question your knowledge of the Advent Movement and of the life of Ellen White and of the individuals involved in the Millerite Movement and in the rise of the SDA church.

You make it sound like the whole thing was deceit and a trick. If you believe this, how can you call yourself a friend of the SDA church or a believer in the church as God's Kingdom. How could God's kingdom have begun on the basis of falsehoods?

Quote:

Musicman: What better way to save face than to claim to have a prophet that would be able to explain away the problems with the faulty theology by merely saying 'Thus says the Lord'.

You're repeating the stuff that is said by those who attack SDAs as a false movement and attack Ellen White as a false prophet. If I believed what you're saying or even believed there was any truth to it, I wouldn't step foot in an SDA church again and I would throw all my Ellen White books in the fire. I wouldn't be able to say those things and at the same time go to an SDA church-- unless it was for the same reason that the Trojans snuck their soldiers into the city in a huge horse. You and I both know that Satan also likes people to join the SDA church for the purpose of spreading false doctrines, confusion, and all the rest. Both God and Satan are working to bring people into the SDA movement, but they have different purposes. Often God even works with Satan's servants and causes them to turn against Satan, so in the end, there's no defeating God.

Quote:

Musicman: The direct link to God through a prophet was an enticing element to many religions of the day, bringing new members into the fold, including their money. Rather than question the authenticity of the call of their prophet Adventists accepted the word of Ellen that she was a messenger of God sent to guide them into truth because they needed a hook to bring in new members to replace those that fell away after Oct.22, 1844.

I'd like to see you try to make your case about this on the basis of all the facts.

It wasn't about money at all. Those people were poor and they spent most of the money that they had on helping to raise up the church.

What books have you been reading, or what websites, that you would say these things? Again, if I believe any of that, I'd be running to get out of a church that had connections with those kinds of tactics.

And you are participating in a radio program from an SDA church that bad-mouths the church and the Bible?

I know this isn't the way you see it-- you think of it as doing God's work-- but I urge you to sit back for a while and look objectively and impassionately at what you're doing and saying.

I say this honestly as your friend, MM, because I believe you are on dangerous ground.

Quote:

Musicman: It is my belief that establishing EGW as a prophet to the Adventist church was based mainly on economic considerations, not truth.

As I said-- not that I'm asking for you to continue to think this way-- I'd like to see your evidence for this idea. As a former socialist, I'm very familiar with the idea that all religions and religious ideas come out of economic processes, but it's another lie of Satan that arose with Karl Marx about 1844. It has taken the world by storm and caused many to reject the Three Angels Messages. It's a diversion of Satan and resulted in millions upon millions of people being destroyed. It also kept the gospel from being preached in eastern Europe and much of Asia for many decades. It's made a lot of people look at the Bible as a fairy tale. Your thesis that money and economics is at the bottom of the Advent Movement and the reason for Ellen White's prophetic ministery is a part of those same lies.

Why anyone who sincerely believes this would continue identifying themselves as a member of the SDA church is a mystery to me-- unless, as I say, it is for the purpose of causing chaos. The only other alternative that I see is that you don't understand-- or haven't accepted-- the church's doctrines and history.

I'm praying for you, MM, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, because I fully realize and acknowledge that all of us need prayer. May God open your eyes and mine, and keep them open!! :-)

[Dr. Rich]

Hey John, how are ya doing? I am not going to answer for MM, but thought of something that Paul said a few times and that is that he too did not want to upset people so he became all things in order for them to accept his gospel. Is this the way you see things too?

Are you afraid to call a spade a spade? Jesus wasn't and look what happened to Him. Paul said he would be honored to die for his gospel but when the time came for it, he was a fraud and did just everything to get out of dying for his gospel.

Yes, I know we have been told we are not to judge, but that goes against scripture, for I DO indeed want to be judged--don't you? Here is the thing: The bondservants for Jesus will not be afraid to call a spade a spade. They will not pull their punch when it comes time to testify to the truth. Elijah confronted Jezebel and look what happened to the false prophets? I expect that the ONE found in Matthew 24:45 will be the Elijah that testifies to the truth and feeds this same information to the rest of the bondservants.

I find it strange for you to say that MM (and the rest of us) are on dangerious ground because we feel the same about you and those who hold fast to the teachings of EGW and Paul. Of course both of us can't be right, and the majority are on your side. Trouble is, the bible is clear that only a few will have an ear to understand this and be on the narrow road. What jsm and others agree with is that time will tell who is correct. My prayer is for the truth to be made known to all of us and that when we see it that we will repent and go with it. I sure would not like for you to be one of those who gnash their teeth when they can't get in the door.

[Guest]

Stop lying Rich. You know you can't get to heaven that way. Why don't you show us where Paul tried everything he could to get out of having his head chopped off. I know I probably would, but I want you to show where he did. Instead of just making an empty false claim. I see you getting away with doing that far too often. And then when somebody does call you on it, you resort to your old favorite standby: "Well, time will tell". If that's all you've got then you need to shut up.

What paul was talking about when he said that, is called: "Meeting the people where they are". Jesus did that too.

Thanks for the e-mail, by the way.

[Woody]

We have a Savior, the issue is "What are you going to do with Him?" To say that you 'love' Jesus and then CHOOSE to not keep His Commandments means that you are a liar. To declare that you are "Born Again" and continue to sin FOR ANY REASON is stating that you are not. No one that is truly 'born of the Spirit' will participate in sinning, so if you say you are born again and sin you are actually stating that you are born of the false holy spirit, the spirit that masquerades as the real Holy Spirit. This false spirit is seen in prophecy as the 'Scarlet woman' riding the Beast of Rev.13. Anyone, under any condition that continues to sin and disobey God IS ABSOLUTELY NOT born of the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. This is the greatest deception that Satan has offered, and most Christians have taken it hook-line-and sinker.

With that theory ... I'm headed to Hell. For I sin.

But while I respect your right to have that theory ... I do feel sorry for you . The next time you sin ... you must feel real bad about your destination.

[Guest]

You're repeating the stuff that is said by those who attack SDAs as a false movement and attack Ellen White as a false prophet. If I believed what you're saying or even believed there was any truth to it, I wouldn't step foot in an SDA church again and I would throw all my Ellen White books in the fire. I wouldn't be able to say those things and at the same time go to an SDA church

Not only do they still go in the SDA church, but they want people to think they are SDAs. That is strange indeed for someone who believes all that nonsense.

I'm like you John, if I believed even half of that mess, I wouldn't go near an SDA church. There must be a reason though. Hmmmm. I wonder what it is?

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "What paul was talking about when he said that, is called: "Meeting the people where they are". Jesus did that too."

Jesus did NO SUCH THING. Now you have gone too far, accusing Jesus of doing what Paul did to get people to convert to his brand of Christianity. Here is the exact quote from Paul, I'm sure you will try to tell me that Paul didn't mean this, but that too would be a lie.

But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. Rom. 3:7-8.

Paul here states that he willingly lies in order to get someone to believe the truth of his gospel. Then he asks a question defending the use of evil so that good may come of it. There is NO valid explanation of this, other than to say he meant exactly what he said. And you actually believe this guy is an apostle of God? Go figure.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

We have a Savior, the issue is "What are you going to do with Him?" To say that you 'love' Jesus and then CHOOSE to not keep His Commandments means that you are a liar. To declare that you are "Born Again" and continue to sin FOR ANY REASON is stating that you are not. No one that is truly 'born of the Spirit' will participate in sinning, so if you say you are born again and sin you are actually stating that you are born of the false holy spirit, the spirit that masquerades as the real Holy Spirit. This false spirit is seen in prophecy as the 'Scarlet woman' riding the Beast of Rev.13. Anyone, under any condition that continues to sin and disobey God IS ABSOLUTELY NOT born of the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. This is the greatest deception that Satan has offered, and most Christians have taken it hook-line-and sinker.

With that theory ... I'm headed to Hell. For I sin.

But while I respect your right to have that theory ... I do feel sorry for you . The next time you sin ... you must feel real bad about your destination.

Woody,

Do you spend time studying the words of Jesus, or is most of your time spent in studying the words of Paul? This IS NOT a theory, unless you term the very words of Jesus Christ to His eyewitnesses 'theory'. This is exactly what Jesus taught to His disciples. Then along comes Paul who says just the opposite by claiming that Jesus came to him and told him the opposite. Either Jesus meant what He said or He didn't. If Jesus didn't mean what He said to His own disciples then why did He come to earth? Jesus said He came to testify to the truth, and if what He told His disciples was not true then what was the point.

[Robert]

To say that you 'love' Jesus and then CHOOSE to not keep His Commandments means that you are a liar.

Then you are a liar for you, unlike Christ, think, plan and live for yourself. Jesus, on the other hand, "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

When you lose your nature, which is bent to self, you "will not think of self". Instead of sharing in Christ's self-denial you retain self. Hence you are a law breaker!

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: Here is the exact quote from Paul, I'm sure you will try to tell me that Paul didn't mean this, but that too would be a lie.

But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. Rom. 3:7-8.

Paul here states that he willingly lies in order to get someone to believe the truth of his gospel. Then he asks a question defending the use of evil so that good may come of it. There is NO valid explanation of this, other than to say he meant exactly what he said. And you actually believe this guy is an apostle of God? Go figure.

If you read it in context, MM, you will see that you're misunderstanding what Paul is saying in Romans 3: 3-8. He's not saying he's lying or being dishonest. Verse 8 even says plainly that this is the kind of thing some people have accused Paul of teaching. You are siding with Paul's false accusers. His accusers were saying Paul teaches that we should do greater evil in order to give God an opportunity to demonstrate His grace. But that is not at all what Paul taught. In fact, it is the opposite of what Paul taught. Paul taught, rather, that it is God's grace and His love that cause us to obey Him. See Romans 3: 31; 8: 1-4; 1 Cor. 7: 19; 9: 21; Gal. 5: 13-26.

Here's Today's English Version, starting in verse 5,

"But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? What can we say? That God does wrong when he punishes us? (I speak here as men do.) By no means! If God is just, how can he judge the world! But what if my untruth [lies] serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner? Why not say, then, 'Let us do evil that good may come?' Some people, indeed, have insulted me by accusing me of saying this very thing. They will be condemned, as they should be."

He's using the method of the "diatribe," which is where the writer or speaker expresses his ideas as if he were debating with an opponent. The words "what if my lies..." are a question Paul is putting in the mouth of those opposed to his teaching. He's saying, "If you take that position, you might as well say that people's lies make God demonstrate his truthfulness..." He's not saying he's lying but that this is how some people reason. The NIV gives it right, "Someone might argue, 'If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?'"

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, ubetcha. However, for you who clearly has not studied everything written by Paul and/or about Paul to even think that I lied, take a gander at Acts 20:24 and 21:13. (Not to mention Paul's refusal to listen to the Holy Spirit in what people told him in verses 11 and 12--Hmmm? would a real apostle do that?). Now you can read on about what happened to Paul and the defense Paul put up with because he was actually afraid to die. He even fudged (lied) in his story to King Agrippa about his mistaken conversion! Check it out--which version is correct-Acts 9, Acts 22 or Acts 26. (Words deleted by moderator.) Unlike Jesus, he did everything he could possible think of in order not to be killed. So please Richard, don't go calling someone a liar IF you don't know for sure! That was not a nice thing to do and I just proved it.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey John, Look at 1st Cor. 9:20-23. Here Paul confesses to becoming what ever he needs to in order to win them over, which is clearly verifying what he said in Rom. 3:7-8.

[Guest]

Rich, the only thing you proved is that you're worse off than I thought you were. The texts you gave say the exact opposite of what you say they do. LOL. I should have known they would, that's par for the course for you. You would have saved some face if you had just taken my advise to shut up.

[Guest]

What you have isn't water, so thanks, but no thanks.

Act 20:24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I am not going to answer for MM, but thought of something that Paul said a few times and that is that he too did not want to upset people so he became all things in order for them to accept his gospel. Is this the way you see things too?

You misunderstood what I said. I'm saying there's a time and place for everything, and you don't make people turn to Christ by calling them names and offending them by being rude. For instance, how many Mulsims do you think you would convert to Christ by going up to them and saying that they believe in a false book? How many Mormons would be persuaded by that approach? Or JWs? About 0.

Think of it this way, Dr. Rich. How do you react to people who come to you and tell you that you are teaching lies and that your book, Spirit of the Church, is a big lie? Does that help persuade you?

What is more likely to persuade you-- and other people-- is kindness and love and talking about the evidence and reasong in the Scriptures.

There may come a time when the Holy Spirit wants you to tell someone that their book or belief is full of lies and are of the devil, but that time is not ALL the time.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Are you afraid to call a spade a spade?

No, but if you tell ALL the truth to people ALL AT ONCE, it isn't helpful and will defeat your intentions. Are your intentions merely to offend people? If it is, then walk up to people and tell them they're ugly and that they stink and need a bath yesterday. Or do you want them to change and be followers of Christ? If that's your intentions, you won't get it by calling them names and telling them that their religion is of the devil. It won't work with them any more than it will work with you.

Let's try this. Dr. Rich, your beliefs are of the devil and the the book, Spirit of the Church, is straight out of hell.

OK, now did that help? I doubt it. You are probably only thinking of how ignorant and foolish or ridiculous I am for saying it. Does it make you want to talk to me more often? Not likely, I suspect. So why would you think other people will react any differently? They don't. So I don't talk to people that way. I don't believe that's how the Holy Spirit works.

As I said, there may be times when the Holy Spirit will want us to say something like those words, but I don't believe it will be every day and every time you see someone reading what you consider to be false teachings.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Jesus wasn't and look what happened to Him.

Jesus could read people's minds and hearts, and you and I can't, at least I can't. Also, when you study his life, you see that He loved people infinitely.

Jesus also loved people so much he was willing to do for each person. Do you love people infinitely? Do you love those you are trying to teach or persuade? Are you willing to die for them? Let's face it-- we don't love people as Jesus loved. That makes a big difference.

Jesus condemned sins with a voice full of love and sadness. But he condemned the sins, not the sinners. He didn't come here to condemn them but to save them. I think often other people condemn for reasons other than to save.

My experience is that if people believe they are loved by the one they're talking to, they are more likely to be changed by their words. Children are far more moved by the words of a parent they know loves them than by a parent they think is merely angry or even perhaps hates them.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Paul said he would be honored to die for his gospel but when the time came for it, he was a fraud and did just everything to get out of dying for his gospel.

Here you are, calling names again. I suppose you think of this as calling a spade a spade.

I don't know what you mean by saying Paul did just everything to get out of dying.

He didn't deny Christ. That may have gotten him out of having to go to Rome.The Lord told Paul from the beginning that he would have much suffering, so it did not come as a surprise. If Paul was interested in not suffering, he wouldn't have done and said the things that he did. He could easily have avoided all suffering.

For someone you claim was a phoney and a liar, Paul sure did suffer a lot needlessly for what he did and said. To me that is proof that he was no phoney or liar. Paul proved beyond a doubt that he believed what he was saying.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Yes, I know we have been told we are not to judge, but that goes against scripture, for I DO indeed want to be judged--don't you?

The Bible is talking about not judging people motives or their hearts. We're to judge behavior, not people's salvation.

Of course we want God to decide.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Here is the thing: The bondservants for Jesus will not be afraid to call a spade a spade. They will not pull their punch when it comes time to testify to the truth.

You're misunderstanding again what I said. There's a difference between pulling a punch and being rude and cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Remember that if you don't pull your punch, other people will also not pull their punch. You will be struck in the same way and with same kind of speech that you use. You won't like it one bit and you will get angry and feel that people are being bad to you. When we talk to people, we are actually giving people persmission to talk to us the same way we talk to them. You call it honesty and doing God's will. Other people will use the same kind of language to you and will also call it doing God's will. And where will this get you?

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I find it strange for you to say that MM (and the rest of us) are on dangerious ground because we feel the same about you and those who hold fast to the teachings of EGW and Paul. Of course both of us can't be right, and the majority are on your side.

That is for sure: we both can't be right.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Trouble is, the bible is clear that only a few will have an ear to understand this and be on the narrow road.

You're right that it says this, but does that mean we can always know what's right by counting noses? Does it mean we can know what's right simply by going the way of the minority. No. That would be foolish.

Salvation is not about who has the most correct doctrine but who loves Jesus the most and is willing to follow Him all the way.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: What jsm and others agree with is that time will tell who is correct.

Time will certainly tell, but there's no reason to wait until then to find out. It will be too late to change.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: My prayer is for the truth to be made known to all of us and that when we see it that we will repent and go with it. I sure would not like for you to be one of those who gnash their teeth when they can't get in the door.

Thanks for that sentiment, Dr. Rich. I have the same sentiments.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Please show how the words of Paul to which I pointed out were opposite of Him being a wimp and a liar? First he said he was not afraid to die, and then he does everything he can to stay alive--even lied to the King about his alleged conversion to make it sound better.

I think I know what you're talking about here, but could you explain what "lie" Paul told?

I think this is another instance of your having the wrong ideas about Paul because of a lack of understanding some basic things. You've shown this a number of times, yet you keep repeating the same misunderstandings even after they've been explained to you numerous times.

No doubt you think you see a contradiction between Paul's different descriptions of what happened on the road to Damascus. Those so-called contradictions are easily understood and harmonized if you study the original langauage or check out some good translations.

[John317]

As moderator:

Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, Musicman:

You think I am afraid to call a spade a spade? Wrong.

I am going to delete some of your posts and edit others for violating the agreement that you and I came to a long time ago. You are going over the edge with your language about Paul, and are forgetting that these thing can be said on the thread that was designed for that purpose.

Obey the norms of the forum. You are convincing me that I should have been deleting more of such language before.

If you guys can't obey the norms and follow through on our agreement, maybe you should go elsewhere to post.

If you want to talk about the lies in the Bible and about Paul and Ellen White constantly, take it to the threads that were designed for that. Just because we relaxed for a while and let you fill the threads with that talk doesn't mean we will keep allowing it to happen. Stop it.

[pnattmbtc]

But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. Rom. 3:7-8.

Paul here states that he willingly lies in order to get someone to believe the truth of his gospel. Then he asks a question defending the use of evil so that good may come of it. There is NO valid explanation of this, other than to say he meant exactly what he said. And you actually believe this guy is an apostle of God? Go figure.

[Musicman1228]

John,

You removed my latest post not because i was not logical or reasonable, but just because you are afraid, of what I do not know. When someone uses Paul or EGW to 'prove' an idea, that makes them fair game for a rebuttal in kind. When you remove that rebuttal (in your capacity as moderator) you are then deciding for everyone what they should or should not see. This is censorship of the most blatant kind, and beneath you. I did not bring Paul into this fight, other's on the forum did, and what you are doing is seeing to it that your own personal beliefs are promoted while other beliefs are limited. This is entirely unfair in that you are not letting people make up their own minds, you are making up their minds for them. So be it. If you are willing to accept the responsibility for their futures that is fine with me.

Henceforth what you will get from me is only the words of Jesus Christ in response to posts that use EGW and Paul as proofs of doctrine and 'truth'. Your decision will then have to be whether you are going to censor HIS words and keep them from being posted. Good luck with that.

(p.s.- I don't see things the same way that you and Richard, Robert, jsm and the rest do. I thought that was what an open forum was all about, that is, expressing those differences. This is obviously not an open forum, but one that you want to control for content. I can live with that. I hope you can.)

[Woody]

John,

You removed my latest post not because i was not logical or reasonable, but just because you are afraid, of what I do not know. When someone uses Paul or EGW to 'prove' an idea, that makes them fair game for a rebuttal in kind. When you remove that rebuttal (in your capacity as moderator) you are then deciding for everyone what they should or should not see. This is censorship of the most blatant kind, and beneath you. I did not bring Paul into this fight, other's on the forum did, and what you are doing is seeing to it that your own personal beliefs are promoted while other beliefs are limited. This is entirely unfair in that you are not letting people make up their own minds, you are making up their minds for them. So be it. If you are willing to accept the responsibility for their futures that is fine with me.

Henceforth what you will get from me is only the words of Jesus Christ in response to posts that use EGW and Paul as proofs of doctrine and 'truth'. Your decision will then have to be whether you are going to censor HIS words and keep them from being posted. Good luck with that.

(p.s.- I don't see things the same way that you and Richard, Robert, jsm and the rest do. I thought that was what an open forum was all about, that is, expressing those differences. This is obviously not an open forum, but one that you want to control for content. I can live with that. I hope you can.)

Just so you know Musicman ... the rules of the Forum are that the moderator can set whatever tone and discussions that he sees fit. Those there are the rules. Yes, it can be hard at times ... but I hope you can stick it out. I do have to say that this thread has veered far from what I posted when I started it.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok John, sorry about the name calling thing. I am not going to be defensive here, just thought that it would be nice to have folks on these threads be able to correct someone by using the words of Jesus instead of from the writings of people who never knew Jesus.

I understand what you are saying and agree. You and Richard have been fair to the most part in that you have shared what you believe and why. Both of you have caused me to do more study and that is a good

thing. \

But you both must know there is no way you will ever convince me to believe like you do again. When you take off those rose colored glasses you will see what I mean, but until then, you can't keep me from trying to get you to take them off. (he he he)

Woody started this post with an EGW post and when it got out of hand, MM got involved. Richard, even you agreed with him at one time.

Here is the thing: Being an Adventist can be a dangerous thing because we are the 'remnant' and the truth will be taken to the whole world thru the Adventists. Just because I see things differently does not mean I am wrong and we all agree that time will tell. If I am wrong, then I will have grace to fall back on. But if I am right, then the grace and faith that both of you hope will save you just might not be enough. You know what? I just can't take that bet. If you EVER can find something wrong with taking the words of Jesus for building the foundation for belief, then you might have a duty to show me this. Our 'group' will stick with Jesus and you two can stick with Paul and EGW.

Oh, I happen to agree with MM on your removal of writings that don't agree with you, but then that is your privilege to do that. (So help you God)

[pnattmbtc]

It sounds like from what John wrote that some sort of agreement was made, that certain discussions, such as, apparently, how bad Paul is, would be confined to certain threads designed for that purpose, and that he removed these posts because, not because he disagreed with them, but because this agreement was not being followed. Is this incorrect?

[John317]

As Moderator to all:

Yes, that's right. It's not a matter of not wanting to discuss those questions and issue regarding the seeming (or real) differences between Paul and Christ, because it is an important subject, but we just don't want all the threads to sort of get bogged down in the arguments that come up about it. It can bring the threads and discussions to a stand-still, or almost so anyway.

Personally I am interested in the same topic-- Christ's teachings and Paul's theology-- but as the moderator, I have to consider all of the members and visitors. Understandably, the administrators don't want the Forum to become "the whipping post" for those who dislike Paul. It could have a tendency to drive people away, and too much work has been put into building up the Forum to let it be ruined that way.

So thanks very much for your cooperation and good attitude, Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, and Musicman. :-)

[John317]

Thanks Dr. Rich.

And now, finally, at 4 am

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "Jesus condemned sins with a voice full of love and sadness. But he condemned the sins, not the sinners."

You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Matt.12:34.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Matt.23:33.

See also Matt. 23:13-39, John 2:13-17, Matt. 21:12-13.

In all of these instances and others Jesus condemned the Pharisees to their faces. He was condemning them not just their sin, because when you have any sin in you it has been your choice to retain it. These people knew exactly what they were doing, just as they knew what they were doing when they put Jesus on the cross.

Jesus did not forgive indiscriminately; He only forgave those who were humble enough to ask Him for forgiveness. The Pharisees were so arrogant that they did not believe that they needed to be forgiven anything, which is why Jesus castigated them so furiously.