What does this mean?

[John317]

Musicman, I agree with you about those verses, but we need to keep in mind that the works don't earn us merit with God, and He doesn't owe us anything for doing right. Whatever He gives to us is based on His grace and love, not on our having earned it.

Also, wouldn't you agree that the only motives that God recongizes are love and trust in Him and love for other people?

I do agree that our deeds certainly matter to God. People who don't think so will get a terribly sad surprise one day.

[Musicman1228]

Musicman, I agree with you about those verses, but we need to keep in mind that the works don't earn us merit with God, and He doesn't owe us anything for doing right. Whatever He gives to us is based on His grace and love, not on our having earned it.

Also, wouldn't you agree that the only motives that God recongizes are love and trust in Him and love for other people?

I do agree that our deeds certainly matter to God. People who don't think so will get a terribly sad surprise one day.

I do agree that God recognizes the motives of love and trust, but these are not the only things that motivate God. The one thing that God desires above ALL other things is the same thing that he used as a test in the Garden of Eden, that is, obedience. When we obey God we DEMONSTRATE our love and trust. Grace is no substitute for cheerful, willing obedience to the will of God as expressed in the 10 Commandments.

[Robert]

Grace will not save anyone that does not commit to and DO the 10 Commandments. According to Jesus our deeds/works do matter.

Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Note, the RYR wanted heaven by performance...by works.

17 So He [Jesus] said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

The RYR referred to Jesus as a mere man...a teacher of the law. That's why Jesus said, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." There is none good, no, not even one!

[Now Christ answers the RYR's question, "what good thing must I do?"]

...if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "

20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I lack?"

A traditional, historic SDA would probably say, "I've been keeping the law since I was in Primary Sabbath School, where have I failed? I am a remnant, commandment keeping person!

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Remember, perfection is living Christ's selfless life. Hence, "you shall be perfect, [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

[Dr. Rich]

Let's not forget what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. Put this all together with the thief on the cross (if it indeed did happen), and do what God said to do in the message to Laodicea and you will see that first one must acknowledge sin and repent, next they must keep the commandments, next they must seek first to be in the KOH and to become righteous. But they also must not think they know it all and that grace will save them anyway.

[Robert]

Legalism

[Dr. Rich]

And tell me why, Robert? If eternal life was not conditional then why do we even have a bible? What is this all about if no conditions exist for eternal life? This is NOT "legalism" it is totally LAWFUL. There is a BIG difference and if you went to law school you would have found this out. If you don't understand the difference between "legal" and "lawful", then you would not have a clue to what legalism means.

[Musicman1228]

God's love may be unconditional but His salvation certainly is not. How would you like to have a husband or wife that set no conditions upon your marriage. Would you like them to say, "Don't worry, Darling, I love you even if I don't prove it by keeping to you alone. These other people don't mean anything to me, it's just my body not my mind and heart."

Would you like to hear that? Yet this is what you are saying that God will accept from you. Do you really think that God will accept someone that will not commit to Him by the vow of keeping His requirements/Commandments as a mark of their total devotion? Do you really believe that just 'saying' I love you without proving that you do is enough for Him to grant you eternal life? If you were God would you accept you as bride under those conditions? If you would then you are stupid, and God IS NOT stupid.

This is the great deception that Christians believe because part of their Bible says it is so. It will cause many to not accept the message of the True Witness, which is that this is a fallacy.

[wayfinder]

John 14:21 NAS

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Yes Musicman, you are absolutly correct. To have God's commandments is ownership, this is the covenant of marriage between God and His kingdom. Clearly Jesus left no doubt that we need to keep His commandments as a demonstration of our love for Him.

[Robert]

If eternal life was not conditional then why do we even have a bible?

Abraham did not have a Bible....Millions do not have Bibles....

If you want heaven by being good then you must live Christ's life. Again, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same? If not no heaven for you because after all it's conditional: "You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect".

Good luck,

Rob

[wayfinder]

Jesus did not do on His own, but with His Father. He came to do the will of His Father. Jesus said "I and the Father are one and if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. His Father's will is also His will, they were one in truth, truth is the unity factor. We become one with them (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) when we learn, practice and worship in, the truth. The source of truth is the Spirit of Truth and Spirit of Truth will lead us into all truth. To know and practice the truth is righteousness.

Revelation 14:5 No lie was found in their mouth, they are blameless.

[Musicman1228]

Listen carefully: If you say that you have been 'born again', that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you still commit sin the YOU ARE CALLING THE HOLY SPIRIT A LIAR - and this IS the unpardonable sin. The Holy Spirit is righteous and completely without sin, just are are the Father and the Son, because they are one. If you make the claim that you have the Holy Spirit in you and you continue in sin you are saying that sin came through the Holy Spirit AND THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. When you gain unity with the Father and the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit then you are blameless, and without sin.

No one who is Born Again of the Water and the Spirit, who is a member of the Family of God, having the Family name on their foreheads will have any sin in them because "they are blameless" (Rev.14:5). Ergo, if you have still have sin in your life it is simply impossible for you to have been 'born again'. No brother and sister of Jesus Christ, who are born of the same Mother as was He (the Holy Spirit-Rev12) will sin at all. When you are truly Born Again you are sealed at that moment with the seal of the Living God and from that moment on you can no longer sin, any more than Jesus can sin.

[Robert]

Jesus did not do on His own, but with His Father. He came to do the will of His Father. Jesus said "I and the Father are one and if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. His Father's will is also His will, they were one in truth, truth is the unity factor. We become one with them (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) when we learn, practice and worship in, the truth. The source of truth is the Spirit of Truth and Spirit of Truth will lead us into all truth. To know and practice the truth is righteousness.

Revelation 14:5 No lie was found in their mouth, they are blameless.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same? If not no heaven for you because after all it's conditional: "You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect".

[Robert]

Listen carefully: If you say that you have been 'born again', that you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you still commit sin the YOU ARE CALLING THE HOLY SPIRIT A LIAR - and this IS the unpardonable sin. The Holy Spirit is righteous and completely without sin, just are are the Father and the Son, because they are one. If you make the claim that you have the Holy Spirit in you and you continue in sin you are saying that sin came through the Holy Spirit AND THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. When you gain unity with the Father and the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit then you are blameless, and without sin.

No one who is Born Again of the Water and the Spirit, who is a member of the Family of God, having the Family name on their foreheads will have any sin in them because "they are blameless" (Rev.14:5). Ergo, if you have still have sin in your life it is simply impossible for you to have been 'born again'. No brother and sister of Jesus Christ, who are born of the same Mother as was He (the Holy Spirit-Rev12) will sin at all. When you are truly Born Again you are sealed at that moment with the seal of the Living God and from that moment on you can no longer sin, any more than Jesus can sin.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same? If not no heaven for you because after all it's conditional: "You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect".

[Dr. Rich]

So Robert, are you saying parts of the bible are wrong?

[Musicman1228]

Absolutely, if you are not perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect then you will not live where He lives, you will be dead. This perfection does not come easily. Unfortunately, it must be EARNED, through the process of sanctification. And please, I don't need to hear the 'thought not, planned not' bit any more. It's getting old. Think of something else.

[Guest]

Yeah Robert, that IS getting old.

So MM, tell me. How do you start this "process" you speak of so often? What did you have to do to start?

[John317]

Quote:

Robert:

Abraham did not have a Bible....Millions do not have Bibles....

So shall we go back to having no Bible?

The fact that we have a Bible and Abraham did not have one means we are more responsible to God for the fuller light that God has blessed us with.

And yes, unfortunately, millions do not have Bibles, and God wants them to have Bibles.

So let us help those millions get Bibles.

[Robert]

Absolutely, if you are not perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect then you will not live where He lives, you will be dead. This perfection does not come easily. Unfortunately, it must be EARNED, through the process of sanctification.

This a damnable heresy....

Folks, run from this teaching. This is a modern day Judaizer. His teaching is of the devil. This is what is wrong with Adventism....Run...fast.

[Robert]

So Robert, are you saying parts of the bible are wrong?

First, answer my question: "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same?

[Robert]

And please, I don't need to hear the 'thought not, planned not' bit any more. It's getting old. Think of something else.

You don't like the question because it proves you are not righteous after all....Just admit you are a sinner failing to live up to God's law or is your spiritual pride holding you back?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Absolutely, if you are not perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect then you will not live where He lives, you will be dead. This perfection does not come easily. Unfortunately, it must be EARNED, through the process of sanctification.

This a damnable heresy....

Folks, run from this teaching. This is a modern day Judaizer. His teaching is of the devil. This is what is wrong with Adventism....Run...fast.

No this is not "what's wrong with adventism". These guys do not represent adventism. What they have is a whole new religion. They only claim to be adventists. And since the church they attend in California won't give them the boot, (for whatever reason) they actually believe they ARE adventists.

And yes Robert, their teaching is of the devil. But you are just as wrong as they are. The devil doesn't care which side of the road you run off of. As long as you're off the road.

[Robert]

you are just as wrong as they are

Tell me where I am wrong....(Disclaimer: Not that I know it all)

[Musicman1228]

My oh my, what a firestorm.

Richard, our teaching is DIRECTLY from the words of Jesus Christ, NOT from Paul. That is your problem, you believe Paul over Jesus Christ. And yes, I am an SDA, and our church has not kicked us out because we are doing nothing for which we can be kicked out. We learn and teach ONLY from Scripture that is of God. If our teaching is of the Devil then that must mean that what Jesus Christ said to His disciples was also of the Devil, and this is impossible. It can't be both ways. Either Jesus is right or Paul is right, not both. I will ALWAYS go with the words of Jesus over anyone. If that makes me 'of the Devil' then so be it. But you will have to go a long way to show me where I am wrong in this concept. You use the words of a false apostle as your gospel, it is no wonder you hate us. And this is just what Jesus said would happen. Think about it.

[Musicman1228]

Robert said, "You don't like the question because it proves you are not righteous after all....Just admit you are a sinner failing to live up to God's law or is your spiritual pride holding you back?"

I have NEVER said I am righteous. All I have said is that a person must become righteous through the process of sanctification by the words of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. I am in that process. You have not yet proven that this teaching (which comes directly from the words of Jesus Christ) is in any way incorrect. You have not done this because you cannot. The only way you can prove this teaching is incorrect is by using the words of someone other than Jesus Christ. When you do this you make that person superior to Jesus Christ, and that (my friend) is breaking the 1st Commandment and is blaspheme.

[Guest]

My oh my, what a firestorm.

Richard, our teaching is DIRECTLY from the words of Jesus Christ, NOT from Paul. That is your problem, you believe Paul over Jesus Christ. And yes, I am an SDA, and our church has not kicked us out because we are doing nothing for which we can be kicked out.

WRONG MM, I believe Paul over YOU. Paul and Jesus don't disagree. Actually you disagree with both of them, but are too blind to see it. Oh well.

Does your church know that you teach that EGW was inspired by Satan? Or do you keep that part under wraps while you're at church? I doubt that they do.

Do they know that you teach that most of the New Testament was inspired by Satan? I doubt it. Both of those beliefs are ANTI-Adventist.

You can call yourself anything you want, but that doesn't make it so. Just like when you say that God let Satan lead his people with a false prophet for 160 years, and instead chose you three to show the "real" truth to. (LOL) Doesn't make it so.

And you never did answer my question: How does one begin this "process" of sanctification you speak of.