What does this mean?

[Guest]

Is there any sin in you MM?

[John317]

Quote:

John317: "Jesus condemned sins with a voice full of love and sadness. But he condemned the sins, not the sinners."

Quote:

Musicman1228 (quoting): You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Matt.12:34.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Matt.23:33.

See also Matt. 23:13-39, John 2:13-17, Matt. 21:12-13.

In all of these instances and others Jesus condemned the Pharisees to their faces. He was condemning them not just their sin, because when you have any sin in you it has been your choice to retain it. These people knew exactly what they were doing, just as they knew what they were doing when they put Jesus on the cross.

Jesus did not forgive indiscriminately; He only forgave those who were humble enough to ask Him for forgiveness. The Pharisees were so arrogant that they did not believe that they needed to be forgiven anything, which is why Jesus castigated them so furiously.

Sure, I understand what you're saying; but what I'm saying is that Jesus loved people infinitely, the very ones he was talking to-- he didn't come at them as if he hated them, which is the way people often come across.

I'm not saying he forgave them. I'm saying that their sins made no difference to him in terms of his coming here to save them and to die for them on the cross. He did that for all of us, even though many of us have been as evil if not worse than the pharasees.

I've been on Forums (not speaking of this one) where some poeple calling themselves Christians talk terrible to people, and they excuse their behavior by saying they're doing like Christ did in condemning the Pharisees and hypocrites. The difference is that Christ loved those people and could read their hearts. What Christ said can't excuse our rudeness and uncivility simply because people disagree with us on an interpretation of the Bible or have a disagreement on theology. It's one thing to say it to someone's face when we know them personally; it's different here on the Forum, often when we don't even know the people we're addressing.

I'm suggesting that we all practice the Golden Rule-- Christ's law of love-- at all times. Before we talk to someone, think of whether we're saying it out of unrighteous anger or whether we're saying it out of Christian love and concern for their salvation. How would we feel if someone talked to us the way we're talking to them? If the person knows we love them and truly care about them, they are far more likely to hear us and take it seriously. There's such a thing as "tough love," where someone needs to have strong language used, but we have to know when that it is appropriate, and not use it indiscriminately.

[Musicman1228]

John317,

I mostly agree with you in this; we should be self-effacing at all times because we never know when our demeanor will influence someone to take a closer look at Jesus Christ through our behavior. You did say something that I don't agree with but I do understand the principle behind why you said it:

I'm saying that their sins made no difference to him in terms of his coming here to save them and to die for them on the cross.

Is the 'them' of which you speak here 'the world'? Jesus came to save people 'OUT OF' the world, the WORLD being where sin dwells.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matt.15:24.

Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, He died to pay the penalty for the sins of His Kingdom-defined as those who come out of the world into the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you look at the Sanctuary Service you will see that at no time were the sins of the world forgiven during the process the removed sin from the Camp of Israel- then the Kingdom of Heaven. As a matter of fact, the 'goat of removal' was sent out into the wilderness (world) with the forgiven sins of the Kingdom, taking those sins back where they originally came from.

I think it is important that we make the distinction and define the difference between the kingdom of the world and the Kingdom of Heaven. At the 7th Trumpet we are told that;

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev.11:15.

Anyone that is still in the kingdom of the world when this occurs will be lost forever.

Yes, the people who are now in the kingdom of the world have an opportunity to decide to become members of the Kingdom of Heaven, but since Jesus died to pay the penalty for the forgiven sins of His Kingdom we must be careful not to give anyone a false sense of security that just by making the claim that you love Jesus you are saved-you are not.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments". John 14:15.

"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:19.

"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Rev.12:17.

[Guest]

Quote:

Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, He died to pay the penalty for the sins of His Kingdom-defined as those who come out of the world into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus also said:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mark 16:15,16 And he said unto them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be condemned.

And John the baptist, who was led by the Holy Spirit said:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

What a shame it is, and what a burden it must be, to be one who has to decide which texts are usefull, and which ones are to be ignored.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

Richard, Yes the Son of God did die for the world, so that those who were in the world could leave it and enter His kingdom.

[pnattmbtc]

If you look at the Sanctuary Service you will see that at no time were the sins of the world forgiven during the process the removed sin from the Camp of Israel- then the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "What a shame it is, and what a burden it must be, to be one who has to decide which texts are usefull, and which ones are to be ignored."

There is no shame and it is not a burden to abide in the words of Jesus Christ and Him alone. I was thinking that is must be difficult and confusing to try to decide what part of the words of Jesus one must throw out in order to believe the words of secondary sources.

Jesus said He came only to save the lost sheep of the house if Israel. The house of Israel today is the Kingdom of Heaven, as exemplified in the current SDA church. The gospel of the Kingdom (Matt.24:14) is that in order to be saved you must be INSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the gospel that must be preached to all the world in order for the end to come. Anyone that does not know or has not heard THIS gospel will not be able to be saved, which is why taking this particular gospel to the world is so important. The world is being told very effectively about the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially the one that Paul teaches. But according to Jesus Christ that gospel IS THE WRONG ONE.

The SDA church was raised up right on time at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy in Daniel 8:14 for the express purpose of taking the Gospel of the Kingdom to the world. We started out well but over the past 160 plus years we have lost sight of our God designed function.

Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. Rev.3:2-3.

Here in this verse we have been told to repent and then complete what God wants us to accomplish. Repent from what? From not taking the correct gospel, the gospel of the Kingdom, to the world. Accomplish what? What we received and heard at the beginning of our movement - that we indeed are the Kingdom of Heaven, and that in order to be saved one needs to become a member of that Kingdom.

What are the requirements of that Kingdom?

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

We are today the ONLY church that makes the statement that keeping the Covenant is important as a declaration of membership. We are less certain about holding only to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Those that accomplish these two things will gain entry into the Family of God-having the name of the Father, the new name of Jesus Christ, and the name of the New Jerusalem sealed on their foreheads.

[Guest]

Quote:

The world is being told very effectively about the gospel of Jesus Christ, especially the one that Paul teaches. But according to Jesus Christ that gospel IS THE WRONG ONE.

Jesus never said that. Those are your words only. Where would one find that in the Bible?

Answer: They wouldn't.

I've noticed that you go by your words more than the words of Jesus. Why is that?

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

What do you believe to be the 'gospel of the Kingdom?'

If Jesus meant that the 'gospel of the Kingdom' is the same as the 'gospel of Jesus Christ' why did He not say so? He could have easily said;

'And this gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached unto all the world ; ; ;' but He did not.

Please give texts using the words of Jesus. Thanks.

[Musicman1228]

One other thing; If we had been preaching the correct gospel to the world would not the end have come before this? After all, we have had over 160 years to get it right, so why are we still here and not in heaven?

[Dr. Rich]

We are not in heaven right now because the gospel of grace must not be the right gospel. As pointed out earlier, Jesus did not show any grace to the five foolish virgins EVEN when they showed up at the door and did what they had been told to do. Go fish?

[Guest]

Richard,

What do you believe to be the 'gospel of the Kingdom?'

If Jesus meant that the 'gospel of the Kingdom' is the same as the 'gospel of Jesus Christ' why did He not say so? He could have easily said;

So you're basing your theology on what was NOT said. Instead of what WAS said.

If Jesus Christ preached the Gospel, then it is the Gospel OF Jesus Christ by definition.

[John317]

Jesus did not show any grace to the five foolish virgins EVEN when they showed up at the door and did what they had been told to do.

The period of grace ends when Jesus finishes his heavenly ministry, which occurs just prior to the Second Coming. We call it the end of human probation. Those who are still practicing sin at this time will not be saved. When Jesus returns, He does so not as our High Priest but as our King. He doffs His priestly garments and puts on his Kingly robes. Daniel 12: 1; Rev. 19: 7, 8; 19: 13-16; 22: 11.

[wayfinder]

So what you are saying is, that the 10 bridesmaids sleep through the great tribulation, the sunday law, mark of the beast and the bowls of wrath, and that this does not awaken them, because someone has to come and wake them up and tell them that Jesus is in the sky with His angels. WOW!

[John317]

The parable doesn't teach us anything about the great tribulation or the Sunday law or the events that occur just before the Second Coming. There's no mention of them because that's not Christ's point. The parable is making the point that some of them prepare for the Second Coming and thus have oil in their lamps, while the others don't prepare. Now is the time of preparation; now's the time to allow the Holy Spirit to help us separate sin from us. Those who wait until the last minute won't be ready.

[Dr. Rich]

Wow indeed! Lets see, a third or the earth, trees and all the grass burned up--but shshshsh don't wake the KOH. Then a third of the sea turned to blood a third of the sea life died and a third of the ships are destroyed--hmmm? quiet now--don't wake up the KOH. Then a third of the rivers, and springs and fresh water turned bitter--but please don't wake up the KOH! Hmmm? Very Interesting!

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: If we had been preaching the correct gospel to the world would not the end have come before this? After all, we have had over 160 years to get it right, so why are we still here and not in heaven?

For the same reason that the Jews wandered for 40 years in the wilderness. They were in rebellion against God and against God's prophets, particularly against Moses. We might have to wait longer.

God doesn't have a huge clock that he's waiting to strike a certain hour. He's waiting for His church to be ready. If he came today, many would be lost who will be saved if He waits longer.

When He sees that His church is ready, God will tell the angels to stop holding back the winds of strife, and at that time, we will see the events that have been foretold for so long, the events that follow each other in rapid succession and lead up to Christ's appearence. If He did this prematurely, who today would be prepared for the things that will happen? Would you-- would I?

Are our garments of character completely washed in the blood of the Lamb? Are we totally sealed in the truth so that we can't be moved? Does God see His Son's character perfectly reflected in us?

These are the things God is waiting for.

[Dr. Rich]

John, you wrote that He is waiting for the church to be ready. What church and ready for what? If salvation is by faith and righteousness by grace, has not the church been faithful? IF, as the Writer of Romans says that no one can become righteous (sinless) then what does being ready mean? Surly you believe that EGW was ready--right?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: John, you wrote that He is waiting for the church to be ready. What church and ready for what?

He's waiting for the Seventh-day Adventist people to be ready in order to give the Three Angels' Messages with the Loud Voice, for the purpose of warning the world about the Mark of the Beast and the seven last plagues. We must first accept the Three Angels' Messages ourselves and let them sanctify us, before we can hope to give them to others. Have we done this? Aren't many still debating what they are, and whether they are true?

Many will be shaken out of the SDA church at that time, and millions more will receive the messages and take the places of those shaken out because of the severe persecution that will come on those who stand faithful to God. Our worst enemies will be former members of the church. We will need to come to the point where we're willing and able to stand completely alone, opposed by family and former friends, even former pastors. This will be a great test.

God is waiting for them to be prepared to go through the time of trouble and to be sealed by the Holy Spirit so that they can't be moved. Their robes are completely washed, with not a spot or wrinkle, and they reflect the character of Christ (although they are unaware of this).

Quote:

Dr. Rich: If salvation is by faith and righteousness by grace, has not the church been faithful? IF, as the Writer of Romans says that no one can become righteous (sinless) then what does being ready mean?

The way you've talked about Paul's theology, Dr. Rich, it's clear to me that you don't understand the doctrine or practice of righteousness by faith. The true doctrine, as the truth in Jesus, brings people into closer relationship with Christ and causes the lives of believers to be in harmony with God's law and with His character.

It seems to me you've accepted the false understanding of Paul's theology which says the law was done away with at the cross and that faith in Christ frees the believer from obedience to God's moral law. I don't accept either one of those premises.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Surly you believe that EGW was ready--right?

I can't possibly know this with any certainty. She was no doubt ready for death, it would appear, but whether she was prepared to go through all the events that precede the Second Coming I have no idea. It's not for me to judge. Only God knows the secrets of the human heart. I refuse to speculate.

[Musicman1228]

If God has to wait until His church is 'ready' then He will be waiting for eternity because Satan will see to it that His church is NEVER ready for His return. The fact that people thinks that God waits a little longer and a little longer for 'one more soul' to be saved is a ludicrous proposition. God will not wait, cannot wait forever to eradicate sin from the universe. He does have a time table for restoration, for putting the world back to it's original condition. The book of Revelation is where God tells His Bondservants the time table for this restoration. It is only these Bondservants that will understand the full meaning of these prophecies. It is these Bondservants who are prepared for service by the Faithful and Wise Bondservant, and who are wide awake when the Master returns and finds the Faithful and Wise Bondservant doing so. It is these Bondservants that are the first fruits of those redeemed from the earth. It is these Bondservants that give the 'cry at midnight' that the 'Bridegroom is here, come out to meet Him'. It is they that awaken the Bridesmaids and prepare them for service to Bride.

Jesus Christ is even now preparing these Bondservants for service. The events that have been prepared for the right year, month, day, and hour are almost upon us. God is not going to wait forever, we are in the delay just before the storm breaks upon the world and most Christians still believe that God will wait for them to make up their minds about being obedient to Him.

[Dr. Rich]

So John, I see that you are admitting that there are two (or more) understandings of Paul's theology. How many "understandings" are there of the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses?

You wrote "God is waiting for them to be prepared to go through the time of trouble and to be sealed by the Holy Spirit so that they can't be moved."

Really? So tell us what being prepared for the time of trouble means?

You also wrote "He's waiting for the Seventh-day Adventist people to be ready in order to give the Three Angels' Messages with the Loud Voice, for the purpose of warning the world about the Mark of the Beast and the seven last plagues."

Does this mean that God is not waiting for any other church organization to be ready? Hasn't the SDA Church been giving the "Three Angels Messages for over a hundred and fifty years already?

How come you don't want to warn them about the first four trumpets? Have these blown/happened?

And when you wrote "Many will be shaken out of the SDA church at that time..." can you show me what will cause this shaking and what causes the 'many' to be shaken out? Is this event the same thing as when the five wise and five foolish wake up and make a choice?

One more question: What does the trimming of the lamps represent in Mathew 25:7

[John317]

If God has to wait until His church is 'ready' then He will be waiting for eternity because Satan will see to it that His church is NEVER ready for His return. The fact that people thinks that God waits a little longer and a little longer for 'one more soul' to be saved is a ludicrous proposition. God will not wait, cannot wait forever to eradicate sin from the universe...

You're right that Satan is doing everything he can to prevent the church from being ready, just like he caused the Jews in the wilderness to rebel against Moses. You are also right that God won't wait forever.

The majority of the SDA church will never be ready. I don't believe He's waiting for all SDAs to be ready, or even the majority. But he is waitng for a significant number to be ready for the things that will come on the earth. And for that to happen, we have to be fully surrendered to Christ and following all the light that He's given us, separating sin from us by His power as we follow the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. By following Christ's work there, we'll learn new duties that will help prepare us for Christ's return. Those who don't follow Christ's work there will be like the Jews who weren't ready for Christ's first appearing. If we reject the IJ, we will still be praying to Jesus as if He's in the first apartment where sins are covered by His blood, the same as they were from His ascension to 1844; and we won't realize that He's passed into the Most Holy where He's not only forgiving sins but blotting them out. Those Seventh-day Adventists who reject the IJ will not be aware that the sanctuary-- God's laundromat, as it were-- will soon be closing.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: So John, I see that you are admitting that there are two (or more) understandings of Paul's theology. How many "understandings" are there of the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses?

It's just like there are people who understand Christ differently. Many so-called great theologians have misunderstood Christ's teachings. There are a number of interpretations of the Sermon on the Mount, for instance. But does that mean Jesus was not genuine or true or consistent? God never said everyone who reads it will understand it. Jesus said the motives and the condition of the heart are a key. We can't understand the Bible-- and are doomed to wrest it-- without the Holy Spirit's guidance, the same Spirit which inspired it. Without the Spirit we will not hear the voice of the Shepherd.

There are also different understandings of Moses and the prophets, remember. But does this mean they were false or inconsistent. If you gave a class of 30 people a story or poem with some complexity, I could guarantee you that you would have quite a few different interpretations and understandings. Anyone who's studied literature or taught writing knows this. Look at how many different understandings there are of Hamlet or Macbeth, for instance. So the fact that there are different understandings of Paul is not necessarily Paul's fault. There are other explanations that make far better sense to me and are more consistent with the evidence.

You've already shown me that you're rejecting things in Paul that aren't even there. So I am not surprised that you think of Paul's theology the way you do.

I'm sure you'd agree that judges and attorney's sometimes misunderstand the law. Not everyone's motives are pure, for one thing. God will allow people to believe a lie if they want to. Peter talks about the writings of Paul and about the fact that some people pervert them to their own destruction. See the end of 2 Peter, a book of the Bible you choose to reject. But that is, of course, your decision.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: You wrote "God is waiting for them to be prepared to go through the time of trouble and to be sealed by the Holy Spirit so that they can't be moved."

Really? So tell us what being prepared for the time of trouble means?

It means to be sealed in the truth by the Holy Spirit so that they cannot be moved.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: You also wrote "He's waiting for the Seventh-day Adventist people to be ready in order to give the Three Angels' Messages with the Loud Voice, for the purpose of warning the world about the Mark of the Beast and the seven last plagues."

Does this mean that God is not waiting for any other church organization to be ready?

Not in the same sense, no. God has millions of His people in other denominations and churches and some who are not yet in any church. What God is waiting for is for our church to be ready to give the message and to accept those people of God into our midst. We're not ready for that yet.

But the SDA church was raised up by God with the specific purpose of lifting up God's downtrodden law and to prepare the world for Christ's return by proclaiming the Three Angels Messages, which is the everlasting Good News. It's not the same gospel as preached by the Reformers. It's not the same gospel being preached by the other churches. God didn't assign the same responsibility and work to those other churches.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Hasn't the SDA Church been giving the "Three Angels Messages for over a hundred and fifty years already?

Yes, but it's been partial and in spurts. As a people we've never truly accepted the Laodicean message or practiced the Three Angels Messages. Most SDAs don't even know what they are, much less accepted them. As a matter of fact, we've largely been stubborn and rebelled against them just like Israel was stubborn and rebelled. God will never come for a largely rebellious, stubborn people. We're a cake unturned. Hos. 7:8.

If people who hear the Three Angels' Messages don't allow them to work in them and purify their hearts and minds, they will eventually come to point where they not only reject them but will actually think they are doing God's will by fighting against what they used to claim they believed. Truth will for them become error; and error will seem to them to be a wonderful truth. Once that happens, there's not a whole lot that God can do. It was the same with Satan: God could not save him because there was no more truth that God could show him. Satan sinned in the full light of truth.

Some SDAs are doing the same. They've known the truth but they've rejected it and therefore no longer understand it. It becomes like a strange thing to them. That's how it was with the Jews who, instead of recognizing the truth of Christ's words and welcoming it, were determined to stamp it out and kill their long-awaited Messiah. They waited for him for over 1000 years, but when He came at last, only a handful recognized Him.

[Dr. Rich]

How long does the 'hour' of judgment last? If it has been going on now for over 150 years what is your answer to that? Doesn't the tribulation start before the three angels messages start?

Reading Rev. 14, it appears that the 144k are sealed before the 'three angels messages. Is this true?

What beast are the people worshiping at this time and what is the "image"?