What does this mean?

[Musicman1228]

Does God seal anyone against their will? Does God seal anyone that has not already come to the truth? If He does, does that mean that God seals people in their ignorance? If someone does not know the truth about the Covenant, the Sabbath, the true state of the dead, etc., and God seals them does that not mean that God has sealed them right where they are?

In the process of canning fruit what one puts in the jar and seals is exactly the same as they will get out of the jar when it is unsealed. Open jars of fruit are placed in a water bath and heated to a specific temperature for a specific amount of time. If this is not done correctly then impurities could remain in the jars. If there is still impurities such as bacteria in the fruit when it is sealed that same impurity will be there when the jar is opened. If there are enough impurities in the fruit the jar might even explode because those impurities keep growing even after the sealing has occurred.

Is this not the same situation vis a vis the sealing of the 144,000, the Saints, and the vast multitude during the time of the end? God does not download righteousness into people at random and then seal them. Those that God seals in righteousness ARE RIGHTEOUS or unrighteous when they are sealed. Those that have impurities still in them when God comes to seal have those impurities sealed into them, after which those impurities cannot be removed.

The 144,000 are seal first because they are the firstfruits of the harvest of the earth. They are sealed in righteousness because they were righteous BEFORE they were sealed. They did not become righteous BECAUSE they were sealed. Eventually everyone on earth will be sealed into either righteousness with the seal of the Living God, or unrighteousness with the seal of the dead god (mark of the Beast). There is coming a time very soon when an irrevocable decision will have to be made by all that are alive on the earth; this decision occurs first with the Kingdom of Heaven (144,000 and five wise Bridesmaids/inner court) and then with the world (every nation, kindred, tongue and people/outer court). The 'shaking' forces a decision within the Kingdom of Heaven/SDA church. The 7 Trumpets force a decision within the kingdom of the world. At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet ALL will be sealed into either righteousness or unrighteousness. But this sealing will be a function of individual decisions not a blanket decision made for them by God.

[pnattmbtc]

You're right that Satan is doing everything he can to prevent the church from being ready, just like he caused the Jews in the wilderness to rebel against Moses. You are also right that God won't wait forever.

[wayfinder]

The parable doesn't teach us anything about the great tribulation or the Sunday law or the events that occur just before the Second Coming. There's no mention of them because that's not Christ's point. The parable is making the point that some of them prepare for the Second Coming and thus have oil in their lamps, while the others don't prepare. Now is the time of preparation; now's the time to allow the Holy Spirit to help us separate sin from us. Those who wait until the last minute won't be ready.

John317, If Matthew 25 is a parable so be it, the fact remains, The bridesmaids went out on a certain day to intercept the Bridegroom, why, because they were convinced He was coming on that certain day, why, because of the 2300 eve/morn. prohecy (Dan 8). The Bridegroom though, unbeknownst to them, had to delay His return. All ten continued to wait for Him and time past and they all fell asleep (the prepared and the unprepared). A cry at midnight awakens them, the Bridegroom is on His way, come out now and meet Him... ands the door was shut...

When Jesus asks why you (not you specifically, but in the general sense) weren't ready, you can say, "I thought it was only a parable".

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: How long does the 'hour' of judgment last? If it has been going on now for over 150 years what is your answer to that? Doesn't the tribulation start before the three angels messages start?

The "hour" is not a literal hour but a "time." It's the same as saying "the time" of His judgment is come. It is the same word as used in John 4: 21, 23. Let me know if you understand this. You keep asking questions that show you haven't an inkling of what the IJ is all about, and this despite the fact that you say you've read many books on the subject. It makes me wonder how much of those books you either actually read (did you skim them, perhaps?) or how much you really comprehend. The amount of time the IJ goes on is not important because there's no set time for it to end. The IJ is not about how much time it takes. As I said before, God could have finished it within a fairly short period if He'd wanted to. The purpose is not for God to learn anything but for the onlooking universe and for human beings.

Rev. 14: 7 shows that this judgment was not going on in John's day. It happens some time between John's day and the falling of the seven last plagues. In other words, it happens before the Second Coming.

No, "the tribulation" doesn't start before the Three Angels Messages are proclaimed.

My answer about the fact that it has gone one for over 150 years is that it could go on theoretically for another 100 years. Why? Because God is waiting for His church to be ready for Christ to return, and His church is not ready. We don't know how much longer it will be. I don't believe it will be very long but God won't come before He knows His people are ready for Him. He's not waiting for a particular time but for a particular spiritual condition in His people. He could have come before this, just like the children of Israel could have gone directly into the Promised Land without wandering around for 40 years. The reason they didn't was that they rebelled against God and against God's prophet. I believe the evidence is overwhelming that many of the people who claim to be SDA are also in rebellion against God and against His prophet. Can you believe this? Look around you; you'll see demonstrable proof of it very close by. Who is saying that the prophet of God is of the devil? Sounds like some of the children of Israel, doesn't it? Look at Numbers 14, for instance.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: You're right that Satan is doing everything he can to prevent the church from being ready, just like he caused the Jews in the wilderness to rebel against Moses. You are also right that God won't wait forever.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Why not? That is, why won't God keep waiting?

Did I say God won't wait? I said, "God won't wait forever," and He won't.

He will most definitely come for His church, the people for whom He already paid an infinite price.

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: When Jesus asks why you (not you specifically, but in the general sense) weren't ready, you can say, "I thought it was only a parable".

Parables are to be taken very seriously, but we shouldn't forget they're parables, or illustrations. There's a difference between a parable and a prophecy. Not everything in a parable has a literal meaning. Take the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, for instance. People go wrong because they think it means things it clearly does not.

On the parable you're talking about, let me to encourage you to study Ellen White's wonderful book, Christ's Object Lessons. You read that book once or twice, probably, but you apparently forgot it.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting):Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)

If God won't wait forever, this would seem to mean that the above given condition isn't really necessary. If the condition is necessary, then God will have to wait until the condition comes about.

He will wait until the condition comes about, but it will happen sooner or later. ERGO: He won't wait forever. To say He will wait forever is to say it's possible the church will never be what God wants it to be, and we know that's a lie.

He WILL come for His church. Why? Because we can be absolutely certain that the church will one day be ready. There is no doubt about that. The Bible says it and so does Ellen White.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Also we note that Christ is "waiting with longing desire." So God (or Christ) not only waits, but does so with "longing desire."

Yes, I referred to that very quote in a previous post on this thread.

[pnattmbtc]

Did I say God won't wait? I said, "God won't wait forever," and He won't.

[Guest]

Wherever the intercourse between heaven and earth has been free and abundant, and God's gifts [have] been unappreciated, the long-forbearance and patience of God will finally be exhausted. Then the once blessed and once favored are abandoned and forsaken of God. It is a terrible thing to exhaust the divine patience. God today is as surely speaking by His servants as in past ages. He has His messengers today as in ancient times, but those souls who have not had divine enlightenment, [who] have had no deep and rich experience in the things of God, know not by experimental knowledge at what they stumble. {19MR 220}

[Musicman1228]

Here we are discussing the patience of God in waiting for His church to be ready and almost everyone has missed a salient point: God has no reason to wait for His church to be ready if everyone in it is already claiming the righteousness of Christ as their own, and claiming that they are saved by grace through faith. IF this is the case then God doesn't need to wait, He can come get His bride RIGHT NOW because they ARE READY, because of that very grace that they believe saves them.

IF WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE there is absolutely NO NEED for any of us to be ready and waiting for His coming; grace sees to it that we are prepared. If grace is sufficient then we already have His character in us, imputed to us through His ministry on the cross. If grace is sufficient then we already have the sealing of the Holy Spirit. All we have to do is recognize this as a church AND CHRIST CAN COME. Because of grace there is nothing else for us to have to learn to be prepared for His appearing. Because of grace we have the character of Christ in us. Because of grace we have the unmerited favor of Christ who died for us, and kept the law for us so we don't need to. Because of grace our deeds count for nothing, because even though our flesh is weak our spirit is willing. Because of grace we are no longer tied in any way to the Law, because the Law brings sin and death and grace brings life. My prayer is "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly and take us home."

[Dr. Rich]

hmmmm???

[wayfinder]

I would like to have joined in your discussion today, but my shoulder is extreemly painful. I dislocated it a month ago and was doing well, but last night something happened to it and I am unable to use it effectively. I am typing this with one finger on my left hand (I am right handed).

Yes John I have read COL, STC, did a term paper on DA, got an A on that, in fact I have read most all of her books. I understand what Walter T. Rae was saying. I even have his compilation of EGW's remarks on "Daniel and the Revelation".

One thought I would like all of you to consider. If there had been a Jewish forum in Christ's day, and He would post on various threads, what do you think the responses to His posts would be? Be honest!

[Musicman1228]

Per my previous post: Why are we still here? What is the real reason Jesus Christ has not come again?

[Dr. Rich]

I Know---I know I know--Pick me Pick me Pick me---Oh well, I will let someone else answer this. Be my guest.

[Dr. Rich]

"One thought I would like all of you to consider. If there had been a Jewish forum in Christ's day, and He would post on various threads, what do you think the responses to His posts would be? Be honest!"

Well, didn't they kill Him? I would suppose they would have been threatening and telling Him how wrong He was.

[Musicman1228]

Read Matt.25:1-13 again.

Why did the Bridegroom delay His coming? Because the bride was obviously NOT ready. And why was the bride not ready? Because all ten of the bridesmaids were asleep. And why were they asleep? Because they had been lulled to sleep by the sweet song that all their sins had been forgiven by the blood of the Lamb, and that they had been saved by grace alone. This is not what they had come to believe when they went out on the road to await the Bridegroom. When they went out they were on fire with the light of the Holy Spirit which had taught them about the Covenant, the Sabbath, and their duty to tell the world about the soon coming Savior. But when the Bridegroom had to delay His coming because the bridesmaids had not completed their assigned tasks all of the bridesmaids went to sleep. As they slept the light of truth began to dim and was ready to go out. And that is where they find themselves today; sound asleep with lamps that are ready to go out.

The message that these bridesmaids had at first changed into something unrecognizable to the Bridegroom. Instead of declaring to the world the message of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.24:14) they began to tell the world about the gospel of 'salvation by grace through faith'. Jesus even sent a warning to them about this:

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you." Rev.3:1-3.

But since they were ALL asleep they did not recognize this message and continued to preach a gospel different from the one they had at first.

And that is where we find ourselves today in the Kingdom of Heaven. The very people that God established to take the message of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven to the world are now sound asleep, inebriated by the 'different gospel' that has lulled them into a false sense of security.

But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.24:48-51.

[pnattmbtc]

Per my previous post: Why are we still here? What is the real reason Jesus Christ has not come again?

The Gospel is not known. People have not been transformed by it, and are not preaching it. When the Gospel is preached to the world, then the end will come.

[Overaged]

Rich do you suffer from TNS? Thick Noggin Syndrome? LOL

LOL, I learned something new...TNS, ha! That's good. Some people should use those initials on their business cards. (no Dr Rich, I am not saying anything about you, just these initials.)

I will say I have seen a lot of theological excuses for and against tithes. Only when it becomes truly a matter of the heart, will God accept this or any other form of obedience.

[Overaged]

Well, didn't they kill Him? I would suppose they would have been threatening and telling Him how wrong He was.

It wasn't just the Jews who killed Jesus.

[Overaged]

Read Matt.25:1-13 again.

Why did the Bridegroom delay His coming? Because the bride was obviously NOT ready. And why was the bride not ready? Because all ten of the bridesmaids were asleep. And why were they asleep? Because they had been lulled to sleep by the sweet song that all their sins had been forgiven by the blood of the Lamb, and that they had been saved by grace alone. This is not what they had come to believe when they went out on the road to await the Bridegroom. When they went out they were on fire with the light of the Holy Spirit which had taught them about the Covenant, the Sabbath, and their duty to tell the world about the soon coming Savior. But when the Bridegroom had to delay His coming because the bridesmaids had not completed their assigned tasks all of the bridesmaids went to sleep. As they slept the light of truth began to dim and was ready to go out. And that is where they find themselves today; sound asleep with lamps that are ready to go out.

The message that these bridesmaids had at first changed into something unrecognizable to the Bridegroom. Instead of declaring to the world the message of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.24:14) they began to tell the world about the gospel of 'salvation by grace through faith'. Jesus even sent a warning to them about this:

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you." Rev.3:1-3.

But since they were ALL asleep they did not recognize this message and continued to preach a gospel different from the one they had at first.

And that is where we find ourselves today in the Kingdom of Heaven. The very people that God established to take the message of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven to the world are now sound asleep, inebriated by the 'different gospel' that has lulled them into a false sense of security.

But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt.24:48-51.

The Bible doesn't say that all ten "virgins" were "inebriated by a different gospel." In fact, five of them turned out to be quite different.

[Musicman1228]

Overaged said, "The Bible doesn't say that all ten "virgins" were "inebriated by a different gospel." In fact, five of them turned out to be quite different."

The reason that ALL TEN were asleep is because they believed that "different" gospel, a gospel they did not hold too at the beginning. Believing a lie is associated with being drunk. When you are drunk you really want to sleep it off. AFTER the cry that wakes them up (at midnight) THEN all 10 wake up; 5 wise believe the Bondservants and go back to the original gospel of the Kingdom, 5 foolish do not believe the Bondservants and stay with the 'different' gospel. Because of this the 5 foolish bridesmaids are left out in the outer darkness the door to the marriage feast having been shut in their faces by Jesus Christ, who tells them that He does not know them.

[Dr. Rich]

"The Bible doesn't say that all ten "virgins" were "inebriated by a different gospel." In fact, five of them turned out to be quite different."

Actually, ALL of them fell asleep, drunk on the good feeling one gets from thinking they are saved because all they need is grace. Please download and listen to today's Sabbath School Study at www.blogtalkradio.com/spiritoftruth and perhaps you too will see where and why all ten became sleepy. Enjoy!

[wayfinder]

"The Bible doesn't say that all ten "virgins" were "inebriated by a different gospel." In fact, five of them turned out to be quite different."

Actually, ALL of them fell asleep, drunk on the good feeling one gets from thinking they are saved because all they need is grace. Please download and listen to today's Sabbath School Study at www.blogtalkradio.com/spiritoftruth and perhaps you too will see where and why all ten became sleepy. Enjoy!

Jesus says nothing about inebriation,

Matthew 25:5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

They became drowsy, while waiting, and all of them fell asleep.

[Overaged]

"The Bible doesn't say that all ten "virgins" were "inebriated by a different gospel." In fact, five of them turned out to be quite different."

Actually, ALL of them fell asleep, drunk on the good feeling one gets from thinking they are saved because all they need is grace. Please download and listen to today's Sabbath School Study at www.blogtalkradio.com/spiritoftruth and perhaps you too will see where and why all ten became sleepy. Enjoy!

Both you and wayfinder have correctly pointed out that all ten "fell asleep" however the point I was making in my comment is best said by the Bible:

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

So what I was getting at when I said that "some of them turned out quite different" was the Bible fact that "five were wise" and therefore, they cannot all be lumped into the same description as you folks appeared to be doing. And that's not totally wrong to do - It's just important to also point out this fact that when the 10 virgins were "alseep" it actually had nothing to do with believing doctrines correctly. (as in inebriated by false beliefs).

This actually has a pertinent application to the WO issue. In the end, all that will count is not the fact that either a woman or a man has been "ordained" but the condition of their heart with Jesus. It is not a rights issue, which is why I have chosen to answer the question of do I think women should be "ordained" the way I just have. All ten of these virgins had a "lamp" (Bible - Ps 119:105) in their hands, but five of them were very different, even though they also fell asleep.

I have a very interesting question about this parable in Mat 25, but maybe I will wait and see if any internet tomatoes get thrown at me first for what I have already said. And yes Tom; it is very pertinent to the WO issue

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 24:49 "...and eat and DRINK with DRUNKARDS, (the ten Virgins)..."