What does this mean?

[John317]

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Musicman1228:

Do you believe Joseph Smith to be a true prophet of God? and if not why not. Does not the LDS church make the same claims about him that we (as a denomination) make about EGW? What causes you to believe that one self declared prophet is legitimate and the other self declared prophet is not?

For me the situation of Joseph Smith and Ellen White are not even close, even though they were contemporaries. Ellen White knew about Smith but of course Smith knew nothing about Ellen White, because he was murdered by a mob the very year of the 1844 Disappointment. Ellen White had her first vision in Dec. of that year.

But having studied Joseph Smith's writings and learning from the Mormon's themselves about how he "translated" the various books, there's no doubt in my mind that he was a false prophet.

But, no, the Latter Day Saints don't make the same claims about Smith that SDAs make about Ellen White. We're quite different actually. Joseph Smith claimed to be able to judge and "correct" the Bible. Ellen White never did that. Ellen White built up the Bible-- Joseph Smith tore it down by saying we can't depend on it as it reads. He said we needed him in order to understand the Bible. In fact, he "translated" the Bible and added many things to it. There are many other major differences. They are actually as different as night and day.

Joseph Smith was murdered because he sent his followers to destroy a printing press that had published news stories about his relations with various women. That is why he was arrested-- not because of the women but because of the destruction of the printing press.

These are not things said by anti-Mormons. I don't even read anti-Mormon stuff. I'm telling you what pro-Smith Mormons say.

Anyhow, this is just some of the differences between Ellen White and Joseph Smith. Come to think of it, I would love to see a book which compares and contrasts them, perhaps including Mary Baker Eddy. That would be some book.

[Musicman1228]

My point in mentioning Joseph Smith was to point out that the LDS church views him in a totally different light than do people of other religions. To most main stream Christian denominations Joseph Smith is a joke, anathema to both common sense and truth.

There are many Christian denominations that view EGW and the SDA church in a similar light. To them we are a cult not a religion because we claim a prophet that to them shows antipathy to commonly held Christian dogma. I am not saying this is bad for us, I am just recognizing the facts.

When Ellen White appeared on the scene as the prophet of the Adventists there were LOTS of 'prophets' commanding the attention of the religious establishments in both the USA and Europe. To be associated with a 'prophet' was fashionable and exciting. After the Great Embarrassment the Advent believers needed something upon which to rebuild their credibility with the religious establishments. What better way to save face than to claim to have a prophet that would be able to explain away the problems with the faulty theology by merely saying 'Thus says the Lord'.

The direct link to God through a prophet was an enticing element to many religions of the day, bringing new members into the fold, including their money. Rather than question the authenticity of the call of their prophet Adventists accepted the word of Ellen that she was a messenger of God sent to guide them into truth because they needed a hook to bring in new members to replace those that fell away after Oct.22, 1844.

It is my belief that establishing EGW as a prophet to the Adventist church was based mainly on economic considerations, not truth.

[Aliensanctuary]

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Critical Thinking Skills

You are thinking critically when you:

---Look for things that may be clouding your judgment

---Explore ideas that might bring a new solution to an old problem

---Take responsibility for what you say and do instead of just blindly following other people

---Expose yourself to new information and keep an open mind about what you learn

---Recognize that there is usually more than one way of looking at things...and that things are not always what they seem

---Figure out what you really believe---instead of letting others tell you what to believe

---Are more concerned with finding the best solution rather than just being "right"

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Critical thinkers tend to...

---Listen carefully. They don't automatically believe everything they hear or read

---Ask questions and spend time analyzing information

---Look for ways to prove information rather than just believing it to be true

---Remain open to new ideas and are able to look at things in a new way

---Avoid shooting down ideas just because they didn't think of them

---Learn how to react to problems logically instead of emotionally

---Protect themselves from being manipulated because they think for themselves

---Catch their own mistakes by thinking about what they are doing

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How to Think Critically

Gather Your Information

Question Your Information

---Did this information come from a reliable source?

---Can I prove this information to be true?

---Does this information go against what I already know?

---Is this information useful to me?

Use the Information

---Solve a problem

---Make a decision

---Come up with a new idea

---Understand someone else's beliefs or customs

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What other ways do people think?

Illogical Thinking

---People who use illogical thinking base their ideas on false information

Wishful Thinking

---Wishful thinking keeps people from facing reality

Emotional Thinking

---Some people tend to rely on their emotions when they think about things

Authoritarian Thinking

---People who tend to blindly accept what someone in authority says and accept what they hear as correct---without questioning it

Intuitive Thinking

---People who rely on their "gut feeling" to solve a problem.

The above information was taken from

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In The Know ---A Professional Growth Module: Critical Thinking Skills

We should all question everything we hear or see, even if it comes from someone we respect or whom we accept as an authority. If we don't use our critical thinking skills we may very well succumb to erroneous beliefs generated by propaganda machines driven by $$$$$.

In the Last Days, the Three Angels' Messages will correct all the errors propagated by so many incompatible religions prior to that time. Only then will all humanity know the truth about the Kingdom of God, and irrevocably choose to be either servants of God, or of Satan.

[Musicman1228]

Thank you, Allen, this is wonderful instruction with well stated conclusions. I will take what you have presented as an opportunity to renew my commitment to self-honesty in searching for the truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Great information! When I first started to read this it reminded me of our investigation classes at the police department. Good investigators will look at everything and then use your list to form a picture of what could of happened and how. I am going to download and print off this list to remind me to 'do it right'. Thanks again!

[Guest]

Good. It sure won't hurt.

[Guest]

Sanctified Through the Word

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John_17:17

The burden of Jesus' request was that those who believed on Him might be kept from the evil of the world, and sanctified through the truth. He does not leave us to vague surmising as to what the truth is, but adds, "Thy word is truth." The Word of God is the means by which our sanctification is to be accomplished. It is of the greatest importance, then, that we acquaint ourselves with the sacred instruction of the Bible. It is as necessary for us to understand the words of life as it was for the early disciples to be informed concerning the plan of salvation.

We shall be inexcusable if, through our own negligence, we are ignorant of the claims of God's Word. God has given us His Word, the revelation of His will, and has promised the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him, to guide them into all truth; and every soul who honestly desires to do the will of God shall know of the doctrine.

The world is full of false teaching; and if we do not resolutely search the Scriptures for ourselves, we shall accept its errors for truth, adopt its customs, and deceive our own hearts. The doctrines and customs of the world are at variance with the truth of God. Those who seek to turn from the service of the world to the service of God will need divine help. They will have to set their faces like a flint toward Zion. They will feel the opposition of the world, the flesh, and the devil, and will have to go contrary to the spirit and influences of the world.

Since the time when the Son of God breasted the haughty prejudices and unbelief of mankind, there has been no change in the attitude of the world toward the religion of Jesus. The servants of Christ must meet the same spirit of opposition and reproach, and must go "without the camp, bearing his reproach" (Heb_13:13).

The mission of Jesus was demonstrated by convincing miracles. His doctrine astonished the people. It was not the contradictory jargon of the scribes, full of mysticism, burdened with absurd forms and meaningless exactions; but it was a system of truth that met the wants of the heart. His teaching was plain, clear, and comprehensive. The practical truths He uttered had a convincing power, and arrested the attention of the people.--Review and Herald, Feb. 7, 1888.

[Musicman1228]

Not only is the world full of false teachings so is EVERY church. When considering the 'world' it is relatively easy to detect lies and defend yourself against them. Satan is smart; he is not going to go for a frontal assault on the church because there is no one in the church that would fall for those kinds of attacks. Example: He would never try to convince any Christian that Jesus did not exist, that He was only a myth or legend as is King Arthur. No Christian would believe this. What Satan does is just what he directed Carl Marx to do, that is, go to work INSIDE the system and subvert the ideals and theology of that system until it implodes by itself. Satan has insinuated lies into the church for the express purpose of removing the threat the church is making to his kingdom.

It is not the world we need to be concerned with but the church. Satan has instilled lies in the doctrines of the church in order to change the teachings of Jesus from what He taught His disciples to what must be believed by the church for Satan to eliminate the threat which the Kingdom of Heaven poses to his kingdom of darkness. Example: Jesus said we must take the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' to the world (Matt.24:14), and what Satan has caused the church to believe is that we must take the gospel of Jesus according to Paul to the world (salvation by grace through faith) and then Jesus can come. The 'church' has been preaching THIS gospel for millenia and still Jesus has not come back. He has not returned because the church is preaching the WRONG gospel.

Satan is his most successful when he comes in the back door not the front. If a demon from the abyss came up out of the ground and confronted any one of us, threatening death if we didn't bow down to Satan NO ONE on this forum would do it, even given the prospect of death. All of you have the courage to face down that demon because you would recognize it for what it is.

But what if you were sitting in church one Sabbath and all of a sudden Ellen White walked down the isle, holding her Bible out in front of her and saying the same things that she wrote about throughout her ministry. She would claim that God had raised her from the dead to confront the SDA church on its lack of faith, and say that she was here to prepare the church for the coming time of trouble. Would you not at the very least consider the possibility that is was God who caused this to happen? There would be many that would shout loud Alleluias and praise the name of the Lord for bringing the great prophet of the church back just in time to lead the 144,000 and the church into the truth and the Tribulation to follow. Ellen even wrote about this, and because she did many would be convinced that she was authentic.

This event may or may not happen, but Satan is not above using any means to convince the people of the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end that black is white and white is black. Satan is not called the 'great deceiver' because he is NOT good at it. JSM wrote a marvelous post on critical thinking (which everyone should read and take to heart), but Satan is expert enough in his understanding of human nature to be able to replace this critical thinking process with raw emotion and thereby deceive many. NO ONE IS IMMUNE to this, unless they are abiding in the words of Jesus Christ alone. Satan cannot subvert the words of God through Jesus Christ as given to His eyewitnesses, and those words are the only real protection we have against the very subtle seduction of Satan who turns lies into truth and truth into lies.

[pnattmbtc]

Isn't "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" salvation by grace through faith?

[Musicman1228]

Isn't "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" salvation by grace through faith?

The problem is that 99% of Christians create a whole theology with that one verse and completely neglecting the other verses surrounding it. Read the whole teaching and then tell me you only see salvation by grace through faith in the entire teaching. Especially let me know what you make of John 3:21.

[Dr. Rich]

Most people that I have questioned on this issue no nothing about the rest of the verses in John 3. The context of verse 16 has to be "whosoever believeth in what Jesus said and taught and do it". For even Satan and Mohammad believed in Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

If you think Satan believed in Jesus, you do not understand what Jesus meant. To believe in Him means to see something. As the serpent was lifted up, so He had to be lifted up, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish. The principle being articulated is that of "look and live."

The reason that believing in Jesus saves is because it brings about a transformation of heart. This is what the New Covenant that Jeremiah discusses is talking about. The creation of a new heart and mind, one which loves righteousness and hates sin.

The doing of what Christ taught can only come about if one believes in Christ, as without the transformation of the heart and mind, it's impossible to do His teachings. Jesus taught this Nicodemus in explaining that he had to be born again.

Paul's teaching was identical. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God to salvation for all who believe. Power to do what? To do what Jesus Christ taught. This power is not of ourselves, but comes from God. It's a free gift, received by faith by those who believe in Christ.

To believe in Christ involves the cross. Jesus Christ taught this is John 3. This is what He was referring to when He said He had to be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness. Throughout John, Jesus explains this. Notably in John 11 He taught that if He were lifted up He would draw all to Him.

The cross of Christ draws all to Him in revealing the character and love of God. The sinner is led to the cross in repentance for His sins, if He does not resist this drawing, and the Holy Spirit creates a new life in the soul. The law is written in the heart and mind. The sinner becomes a believer, and is born again.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding John 3:21, this is dealing with the principle that those who are born again will love God and the principles of His government. To be happy in heaven, one needs to love God and the principles of His government. Not as an arbitrary requirement, but simple common sense makes this clear.

One who loves God and the principles of His government will love the light and come to the light (which is saying the same thing). The works of the believer will be in harmony with the principles of God's government, because these are the principles which the believer loves. The principles of God's government have become His principles.

John 3:16 is not a single verse. All of John 3 is leading up to that verse. Jesus explains the verse by means of the serpent lifted in the wilderness. Also, Jesus taught the same truth in many places, and John brings it up over and over again.

[Dr. Rich]

pnattmbtc wrote: "If you think Satan believed in Jesus, you do not understand what Jesus meant. To believe in Him means to see something. As the serpent was lifted up, so He had to be lifted up, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish. The principle being articulated is that of "look and live."

Sorry to disagree with you, but it is NOT just the looking and live, it is OBEDIENCE in what God commands that is important.

The tree of learning good from evil did NOT have anything important in it like poison--it was probably just like every other tree. Eating the fruit was NOT the problem--the problem was not obeying what God commanded.

Killing the Passover Lamb and spreading the blood on the door jamb did NOT save anyone--it was NOT the blood, nor was it the lamb. What saved them was obeying what God commanded.

And you are also wrong about Satan not believing in Jesus, for they knew each other as both were Arch Angels of God and were both in the family of God.

If you believe in Jesus, then you will keep His commandments and His words as provided to us by His eyewitnesses. If you do not know who Jesus is, then how in the world can you believe in Him? Most people just put Jesus into a box and say that is who Jesus is without even knowing anything that He taught and said. Most also make their Jesus into the words of Paul. Adventists make their Jesus as saying everything that EGW wrote. Do you see what the problem is with this?

Read Matthew 25 and you will see that many will say that they know/believe in Jesus and please read what Jesus says back to them in verse 12. Please don't be like one of those!

[Dr. Rich]

James 2:19 shows us that the demons believe. They know exactly who Jesus was/is and believe, but what good will that do them?

[pnattmbtc]

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pnattmbtc wrote: "If you think Satan believed in Jesus, you do not understand what Jesus meant. To believe in Him means to see something. As the serpent was lifted up, so He had to be lifted up, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish. The principle being articulated is that of "look and live."

Sorry to disagree with you, but it is NOT just the looking and live, it is OBEDIENCE in what God commands that is important.

You missed the point. You wrote:

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For even Satan and Mohammad believed in Jesus.

so I pointed out that Satan did NOT believe in Jesus. If you think he did, you're not understanding what it means to believe. This was my point.

Also I didn't say anything about "JUST" look and live. Both Paul and Jesus are very clear about the importance and the role of obedience.

I'm very perplexed as to why you would make the point that you did. I don't see that it has anything to do with what I wrote.

Anyway, you write that you're sorry to disagree with me, but you're addressing something I didn't write.

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And you are also wrong about Satan not believing in Jesus, for they knew each other as both were Arch Angels of God and were both in the family of God.

Ok, this does address what I wrote.

No, Satan does not believe in Jesus Christ. If you think this, you do not understand what it means to believe in Christ. John taught throughout his Gospel and epistles that to believe in Christ is to have life, and to not believe in Him is to be condemned. If Satan believed in Christ, he would have life, and not be condemned. But Satan is condemned. Therefore he does not believe in Christ.

There are two groups of people. Those who believe, and those who don't. Those who don't believe are condemned.

You could also break this down into those who obey and those who don't, because only those who believe obey, and all who believe obey.

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If you believe in Jesus, then you will keep His commandments

Of course.

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and His words as provided to us by His eyewitnesses.

not sure why you added this. Is this something different? That is, shouldn't simply saying, "If you believe in Jesus, then you will keep His commandments" be sufficient?

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If you do not know who Jesus is, then how in the world can you believe in Him? Most people just put Jesus into a box and say that is who Jesus is without even knowing anything that He taught and said.

Agreed!

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Most also make their Jesus into the words of Paul.

Disagree with this. If you don't know what Paul taught, then how can you make anyone into his words? I think few people understand Paul, or even close. If people understood Paul, there wouldn't be a problem.

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Adventists make their Jesus as saying everything that EGW wrote. Do you see what the problem is with this?

I don't think people do this either, for the same reason. If they did do as you are suggesting, I wouldn't see any problem with that, no.

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Read Matthew 25 and you will see that many will say that they know/believe in Jesus and please read what Jesus says back to them in verse 12. Please don't be like one of those!

James, and others, make the same point (that claims have no inherent value; i.e., that one claims to believe in Jesus doesn't mean he does.) I haven't said anything about saying you believe in Jesus. Of course claiming something has no inherent value.

[pnattmbtc]

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James 2:19 shows us that the demons believe. They know exactly who Jesus was/is and believe, but what good will that do them?

The devils "believe." They don't believe. Of course, they didn't have this punctuation in the Greek, but James intent should be obvious.

James is saying that mental assent is not faith. The devils know of Jesus, they believe in His existence, and that He is Lord. But they don't have faith. They don't believe in Jesus Christ in a faith sense, but only in a mental assent sense. This isn't what Jesus Christ was speaking of when He said that one must believe in Him to be born again. Jesus Christ explained the principle of "look and live."

Faith in Christ is tied in to the cross. It is by means of the revelation of the cross that we are saved. Without the cross, there is no salvation.

[Dr. Rich]

"You could also break this down into those who obey and those who don't, because only those who believe obey, and all who believe obey."

Hey, this is great and should clear up the misunderstanding. Thanks!

I don't have a problem with your understanding. I was addressing the problem of most people who call themselves christian, for they have not invested the time and effort to really get to know Jesus by reading and studying His words that were provided to us by His eyewitnesses (John 14:16 and 17:20) Most Christians and most christian churches believe that Paul's words are the same as Jesus' words and this is what gets them into hot water.

I then said that Adventists have that same problem with EGW--that they use her words to correct people and making her words trump what Jesus actually said and taught.

You asked why I included Jesus' words and the reason I did was because of the prophecy found in Rev. 12:17 being that those who are born again and become sons and daughters of the Holy Spirit (brothers and sisters of Jesus) will be those who keep all of the commandments AND obey the words (testimony) of Jesus Christ.

You will see in other threads all the bickering about issues that have caused confusion ever since Jesus left. These issues could be cleared up and we could all have unity IF we just went back to the common denominator--the very words of Jesus Himself--and the Old Testament since Jesus verified it because of His teaching from it.

[pnattmbtc]

Most Christians and most christian churches believe that Paul's words are the same as Jesus' words and this is what gets them into hot water.

[Dr. Rich]

The Ten Commandments are/is the contractual covenant that God has with His people. He can't be your God if you don't keep them.

Jesus said He came to testify to the truth regarding His relationship with His Father, the Holy Spirit and with the Kingdom of Heaven. He also said that the gospel of/about the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached into all the world before the end shall come. So yes, it does appear there is a difference.

[pnattmbtc]

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The Ten Commandments are/is the contractual covenant that God has with His people. He can't be your God if you don't keep them.

"Contractual covenant" sounds like an arbitrary thing to me. Perhaps you don't mean it that way.

I commented earlier that one could not be happy in heaven without loving God and the principles and His government. The principles of God's government are the Ten Commandments. These are written in the heart when on believes. This is the New Covenant, the writing of the law in the heart and mind. This is how one becomes obedient.

The law could never be obeyed as an outward thing, trying to make one's behavior conform to an external requirement. This is what the Pharisees tried to do, and it failed miserably, as it still does, because man's great need is for Christ, and to be converted.

The cross of Christ reveals the goodness of God, which leads one to repentance and conversion. This is the path to salvation, and to obedience.

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Jesus said He came to testify to the truth regarding His relationship with His Father, the Holy Spirit and with the Kingdom of Heaven. He also said that the gospel of/about the Kingdom of Heaven will be preached into all the world before the end shall come. So yes, it does appear there is a difference.

I asked for a specific example. What's an example of a commandment of Christ which are not His words? Or the reverse, something of His words we should keep, which is not a commandment?

If we keep His commandments, that is sufficient.

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And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3)

[Dr. Rich]

"Contractual covenant" sounds like an arbitrary thing to me. Perhaps you don't mean it that way.

If it is not a conditional or arbitrary 'thing', then please go to Deut. 30:15-20 and you will get the truth right from God's own words.

I hear you say--but God changed the rules because no one can keep the commandments. NOPE--God does not change no matter how much we want to believe He did.

But check out verse 16 where God says "commandments" AND "His statutes" AND "His judgments". Jesus came here to save the lost sheep of Israel and to do this He told how one can become saved which we find in John 3--the whole chapter. He also said that He did not come here to change anything and that Heaven and Earth will pass away before the command to keep His commandments. Well, Heaven and Earth are still here, so too are the command to keep the covenant--which is a contractual agreement.

An example of commands from Jesus that are not one of the commandments can be found in Matthew 10. What is interesting is that Jesus said NOT to go to the Gentiles or to the Samaritans. WHAT? Then how come Paul said he was to go to the Gentiles? Hmmm?

Another is Matthew 7:13-27 but especially verses 15 and 26!

[pnattmbtc]

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"Contractual covenant" sounds like an arbitrary thing to me. Perhaps you don't mean it that way.

If it is not a conditional or arbitrary 'thing', then please go to Deut. 30:15-20 and you will get the truth right from God's own words.

I hear you say--but God changed the rules because no one can keep the commandments. NOPE--God does not change no matter how much we want to believe He did.

Your calling this a "rule" is depicting the same mindset I was addressing when I spoke of "contractual contract" sounding like an arbitrary thing. I've written about this in terms of principles of God's government, which I think is a clearer way of thinking about this.

It's not that God gives us "rules" to keep, like not parking this parking spot, not leaving a parked car by a certain time. It's more like not running a stop sign, which can have disastrous effects if a car is coming, regardless of any legal penalties which may exist.

That is, God's government is run by principles of unselfishness, of self-sacrificing love. These principles are embodied in His commandments. These principles must be internalized, which is what the cross accomplishes. When the revelation of the cross is perceived, and believed, the believer repents and is converted: he is born again, and the law (the principles of God's government) are written in his heart and mind.

This is the Everlasting Covenant (also referred to as the "New Covenant"). This is the only way of salvation: faith in Jesus Christ.

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But check out verse 16 where God says "commandments" AND "His statutes" AND "His judgments". Jesus came here to save the lost sheep of Israel and to do this He told how one can become saved which we find in John 3--the whole chapter. He also said that He did not come here to change anything and that Heaven and Earth will pass away before the command to keep His commandments. Well, Heaven and Earth are still here, so too are the command to keep the covenant--which is a contractual agreement.

Again, referring to this as a "contractual agreement," I think can give off a wrong idea. It's not referring to "rules" or arbitrary requirements (like the parking spot in my example), but to principles by which God runs His government (unselfishness; self-sacrificing love), which must be internalized through the process of repentance and conversion, which comes by means of the "look and live" principle which Jesus Christ explained in John 3. Obedience follows when one has been born again, so that the law has been written on the heart and mind.

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An example of commands from Jesus that are not one of the commandments can be found in Matthew 10.

? I asked for a commandment of Jesus Christ which are not His words. You said we need to keep His commandments, and also His words, as if this were something different, so I asked for an example of a commandment of Christ which are not the words of Christ, or, conversely, an example of keeping His words which would not be an example of keeping His commandments.

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What is interesting is that Jesus said NOT to go to the Gentiles or to the Samaritans. WHAT? Then how come Paul said he was to go to the Gentiles? Hmmm?

? I don't see how this has anything to do with anything I said or asked.

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Another is Matthew 7:13-27 but especially verses 15 and 26!

Here's vs. 15:

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Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Again, I don't see that this ties into anything I said or asked.

Here's vs. 26:

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And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

This looks to me to be speaking of keeping Christ's commandments. I don't see how this verse establishes the idea that keeping Christ's words is somehow something different than keeping His commandments. Again, 1 John 2:3 tells us:

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And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This looks to be sufficient.

[Dr. Rich]

For the most part, I will agree with you. As in any marriage vow/covenant, when two happy people actually love each other and show this love, the contract/vow/covenant does not even come into play. But mind you, when one steps out of line, then this vow becomes very important! God does not shack up. Those people who say they love God and that God loves them but refuse to keep the commandments are kidding themselves.

[Woody]

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Those people who say they love God and that God loves them but refuse to keep the commandments are kidding themselves.

I know of no one who doesn't fall in this catagory. Ellen White tells us that there is no excuse for sin because we have all the resources of Heaven at our disposal to NOT sin.

So, sin is a choice that we ALL choose.

Perhaps we need a savior?