What does this mean?

[Guest]

Then you are hopelessly lost....This is legalism!

[Musicman1228]

If you are not doing the Law then you are Lawless. We have been told to beware of the man of Lawlessness. Jesus was the Man of the LAW, because He did only His Father's will; His will is that we perform the Law-the 10 Commandments. We will all be judged according to our deeds, however this is accomplished.

Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. Rev.2:22-23.

[Robert]

Hey Robert, can you support your belief without Paul's words and without Hebrews?

You mean "agape"? Sure:

Mark 10:42 "You know that in this world kings are tyrants, and officials lord it over the people beneath them. 43 But among you it should be quite different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. 45 For even I, the Son of Man, came here not to be served but to serve others, and to give my life as a ransom for many."

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [That's right, Richard, don't shoot 'em] 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Luke 9:57 As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head." [in other words to "follow" Christ means to live His life of self-denial]

John 12:25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death....

Keep in mind the opposite of self-love is not self-hate...it is selflessness or the denial of self. Agape is not self-seeking....On the other hand human love is egocentric. Everything we do, in and of ourselves, is always for selfish purposes. Everything!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Then you are hopelessly lost....This is legalism!

Laugh it up laughing boy....If you think that you are meeting the demands of God's law, both the letter and the spirit, then the joke is on you....

[Robert]

His position can't be supported. Because it's straight out of babylon. Which means it originated with satan.

No, your nonsense if from Satan. The god of this world has blinded you to believe that your love of self is the same as God's love. Not so...."For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.

[Robert]

Keep in mind the opposite of self-love is not self-hate...it is selflessness or the denial of self. Agape is not self-seeking....On the other hand human love is egocentric. Everything we do, in and of ourselves, is always for selfish purposes. Everything!

God's love

[pnattmbtc]

p:You cannot be Christ's and live unlike Christ.

R:How did you obtain the things you have? Was it an accident? Tell me you didn't think of yourself a lot! Tell me all your education wasn't with you in mind! Tell me you got all these things by thinking solely of others and I'll tell you that you are lying....

Robert, people do things thinking of others. You can't be Christ's and not live as Christ lived and taught. This doesn't mean we won't make mistakes, but to be Christ's is to live for Christ. The entire epistle of 1 John makes this point over and over again.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Not everyone is called to a ministry such as Christ had, or such as Christ called the RYR.

R:Christ wasn't called to be poor! He came to save humanity and He did so by living a perfect life in obedience to God's agape love while in our fallen humanity.

Now, if you live Christ's life you too will experience poverty....Why? "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." If you guys lived Christ's life here on earth you would share His poverty as well. Hence, "those who follow Him must share his poverty."

[pnattmbtc]

p:Christ Himself, who, during most of His adult life, worked as a carpenter and lived in a home.

R:So? He lived for others....He didn't build personal wealth. In the case above He lived also for his parents. It wasn't His home....He didn't compete...He didn't try and out do others as we do in this Capitalistic system....It's a dog eat dog world and Christ never was of this world.....

If I gave you my home that wouldn't make it sinful for you to live in it. But if you covet after your own things that is being bent to self.

The early church had all things in common. There was no this is mine and that is yours. That is how it will be in heaven....

I don't know what point you're trying to make.

[Dr. Rich]

It must be remembered that Jesus' very rich uncle Joe (Joseph) was an owner of a shipping company and Jesus may have traveled with him a time or two. What this means is that Jesus' family relatives were well to do and that is probably why Jesus' mother was well known at the party where water was turned into wine.

[Robert]

This doesn't mean we won't make mistakes

Paul tells me that we aren't even measuring up to Christ's life, although we do grow (see Rom 3:23). As EGW states, we should aim to become less self-seeking. And pertaining to practical Christianity, Paul said, "Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others."

[Robert]

Living for self is a choice we make.

Then stop all sin and live for others only. Be content with only food and clothing. Don't worry about having a roof over your head, a nice job, money in the bank. Don't think of yourself, what you want and the things you would like to do. Do not be bent to self. Instead of living for self, live to build another's wealth.

[Musicman1228]

As wayfinder pointed out earlier God does not ask all of us to give up all of these things; what He is asking for is that they not be so important to us that we won't have the instant willingness to give it all up for Him. God needs and creates people of means to act as conduits for HIS wealth supporting those things that HE has decided are important. God does not sign checks, that is up to those that have the financial ability to do so. Just because someone has money doesn't automatically mean they are unwilling to part with it.

My Dad made millions as a physician, but because of my mother giving it away to 'worthy' causes they died broke and living on social security, and survived only with financial the help of their children. It was completely unfair to us to have to support them because they were 'unselfish' and didn't think of themselves.

So Robert, don't talk to me in that holier-than-thou, think only of others [censored]. It cost us a small fortune to give my parents a decent retirement that they should have had plenty of money to take care of themselves. We 'honored our father and mother' by doing what we did; they did not 'honor' us by taking advantage of us when it was completely unnecessary.

[Musicman1228]

This is what happens too often today in SDA families who let their parents 'give away' the store to unscrupulous ministries and preachers who take advantage of a kind heart and a thick wallet. If I sound angry I am really not: I AM FURIOUS. The attitude that you (Robert) display in this case is despicable and not Christ-like. Jesus would not want anyone to suffer because someone close to them was financially stupid. It is not money that is the root of all evil, it is attitudes toward money like yours that is.

[Robert]

As wayfinder pointed out earlier God does not ask all of us to give up all of these things; what He is asking for is that they not be so important to us that we won't have the instant willingness to give it all up for Him.

[Robert]

The attitude that you (Robert) display in this case is despicable and not Christ-like. Jesus would not want anyone to suffer because someone close to them was financially stupid. It is not money that is the root of all evil, it is attitudes toward money like yours that is.

Sounds like you wanted the millions in your wallet? Like I said, we come up short. We are bent to self. You included.....

[Robert]

We 'honored our father and mother' by doing what we did; they did not 'honor' us by taking advantage of us when it was completely unnecessary.

Sounds like you kept the letter of the law, but inside you hated doing it....That means the act was polluted with self, which makes the act worthless.

I'm telling you that we aren't measuring up. You need to start listening....We are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago. If we are saved by what we do we've had it.

[Robert]

Jesus would not want anyone to suffer because someone close to them was financially stupid.

Technically speaking Jesus doesn't want believers bent to self. His idea of wealth is seen in the book of Acts. Yet I see a church (called SDA) that insist that they are God's remnant, commandment keeping people, but yet they don't even come close to the NT church. Let's look:

Acts 4:32 All the believers were of one heart and mind, and they felt that what they owned was not their own; they shared everything they had. 33 And the apostles gave powerful witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God's great favor was upon them all. 34 There was no poverty among them, because people who owned land or houses sold them 35 and brought the money to the apostles to give to others in need.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

We 'honored our father and mother' by doing what we did; they did not 'honor' us by taking advantage of us when it was completely unnecessary.

Sounds like you kept the letter of the law, but inside you hated doing it....That means the act was polluted with self, which makes the act worthless.

I'm telling you that we aren't measuring up. You need to start listening....We are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago. If we are saved by what we do we've had it.

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there ;

2 and both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.

3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."

4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."

5 His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."

Sounds like Jesus kept the letter of the Law, but hated it. Are you saying that when Jesus turned the water into wine that act was polluted and made the act worthless, I think not.

[Dr. Rich]

"Acts 4:32 All the believers were of one heart and mind, and they felt that what they owned was not their own; they shared everything they had. 33 And the apostles gave powerful witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God's great favor was upon them all. 34 There was no poverty among them, because people who owned land or houses sold them 35 and brought the money to the apostles to give to others in need."

Is not this the central theme in socialism? Robert, you just hit on one of my largest problems with Luke's writings (Paul's by the way of Luke) and the whole problem of the present day Christian Church(s).

Here is the thing: Jesus NEVER came to this earth to set up a Church or more importantly, a group of people called "Christians". He said that He came to testify to the truth and save the lost sheep in the flock. The flock was the Kingdom of Heaven also known as Israel, and then later split and was known as the Jews. There is a large difference between the Kingdom that God set up on earth at that time and the Universal Church (aka Christians). What Acts 4 tells us is that they were basically a commune of people working for the good of the whole group. (Would not this also be called stealing from those who work the hardest to give to those who don't work?)

Of course Luke probably did not write Acts (or Luke) to be used in any bible, but only to give a heads up to the government of Rome and show the government that they meant no harm whatsoever to them. So if he "fudged" in his writing, no one else would know. Problem is, the writing got out and was used by the early Christian Church as a political means for controlling them. I seriously doubt that Jesus would have ever set up this new Christian Church the way it was--especially with the words of Paul, making women second rate citizens. Paul's words even go as far as to allow men to marry many wives, but the only thing they could not be ministers. How sad!

This is only one example of why I do not trust any of the writings of Luke and Paul. They might be good to get a glimpse of what was going on, but I certainly would not bank on anything to be the real truth. Sadly, the words of Luke and Paul are used as a club against women and against those who do not have some type of degree in theology. I am sure glad that Jesus did not act in this way and found fishermen to be His disciples.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Jesus would not want anyone to suffer because someone close to them was financially stupid.

Technically speaking Jesus doesn't want believers bent to self. His idea of wealth is seen in the book of Acts. Yet I see a church (called SDA) that insist that they are God's remnant, commandment keeping people, but yet they don't even come close to the NT church. Let's look:

Acts 4:32 All the believers were of one heart and mind, and they felt that what they owned was not their own; they shared everything they had. 33 And the apostles gave powerful witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God's great favor was upon them all. 34 There was no poverty among them, because people who owned land or houses sold them 35 and brought the money to the apostles to give to others in need.

Don't quote Acts to me as proof of anything, I won't have it. Quote the testimony of Jesus Christ given by eyewitness Disciples to me NOT Paul and I will consider what you have to say. What is described in Acts 4:32-35 is the basis that Christians use to promote Communism and this new garbage called being a "Social Christian". This is found nowhere in the testimony of Jesus.

When Jesus was faced with feeding the 5000 His Disciples said that the didn't have enough money with them to feed even a fraction of those present. Jesus KNEW ahead of time that He would need to feed the 5000 (plus), so why didn't He bring enough money with Him to do so? It is not that Jesus did not have enough money, He did, He wanted to make a point, which was that we must recognize who is providing for us, that is, God;that the wealth we have is in trust to us to use to help His Kingdom prosper. WE MUST BE WISE IN IT'S USE. Zacheus was still very wealth after he gave back to those he defrauded. Joseph of Arimethea and Nicodemus were extremely wealthy and Jesus did not tell them to liquidate their holdings, give to the poor, and follow Him. They followed Him with their wealth intact.

I grew up in a wealthy family that gave, and gave and gave until there was NOTHING left. I am broke (financially) but I am working on a project that will hopefully make me wealthy. And when I am wealthy I will give and give, but I will include myself and my family in that giving. I DID honor my father and mother, and I did it out of love and respect for them. We would never consider NOT helping them even after their stupidity in handling their finances. The Commandment to do this was IN us and is what motivated us to do right by our parents. Needing to keep that Commandment did cause us to do what we did, which is the whole point of keeping the Commandments.

[Robert]

Sounds like Jesus kept the letter of the Law, but hated it.

Sounds like you shouldn't judge Jesus....

[Robert]

This is only one example of why I do not trust any of the writings of Luke and Paul.

Guess what? I don't care.....

[Robert]

Don't quote Acts to me as proof of anything, I won't have it.

[Musicman1228]

What is it about being judged by what you do that you don't get?

“‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. Rev. 2:19.

And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. Rev:2:23.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:21.

If you think for one minute that what you do does not matter to God you had better think again. Grace will not save anyone that does not commit to and DO the 10 Commandments. According to Jesus our deeds/works do matter.