What does this mean?

[Robert]

Legalist!

[Jodie]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Somebody skip the needle already. It's in the same groove it was ten pages ago.

Are you free of selfishness or are you bent to self?

Jack:

At its very best, human love is self-seeking. Since we are by nature egocentric, everything we do or think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, even religiously, we are all slaves to “our own way” [isaiah 53:6; cf. Philippians 2:21]. As we saw in the previous chapter, we are all shaped in “iniquity”; that is, we are bent toward self. Consequently, we all, without exception, fall short of God’s glory, His agape love [see Romans 3:23].

All of you have serious eye problems....You really can't see that compared to Christ your goodness is dung....You need to give up your self-righteousness for the righteousness of Christ or I can guarantee you that you will not enter into heaven!

Rob

Robert, your statement confuses me. First you ask the question "Are you free of selfishness or are you bent to self?" Then in the next paragraph you say "You need to give up your self-righteousness for the righteousness of Christ or I can guarantee you that you will not enter into heaven!"

Please explain to me how YOUR guarantee of someone not getting into heaven reflects the righteousness of Christ. Is it not God's job to judge men?

[Guest]

Good observation there Jodie.

[Guest]

All of you have serious eye problems....You really can't see that compared to Christ your goodness is dung....

That's where you're wrong. I know my goodness is dung. That's where the grace of God and His righteousness comes in. But that does not release me from doing what He has told me to do. (that's what babylonians preach) And anything I do right, God gets the credit, not me. He has not promised us power from the Holy Spirit, and then turned around and changed his mind about it. That would make Him a liar.

Are you calling God a liar Robert?

[Musicman1228]

Robert, you would be right, except that I am dirt poor and have NO money. I work for the S E Conference, very part time. The ministry that I am in is a 'sack cloth' ministry, also with no money, just a love for the Truth as exemplified by Jesus Christ and Him alone.

I am the first to admit that I have sin in me, that is why I have entered into the process of sanctification, so that through the power of the Holy Spirit I can get rid of the sin in my life and replace it with righteousness. Unlike you I understand my responsibility in this process is to search out and confess my sins. When I do that Jesus is faithful and just to forgive me my sins and cleans me from ALL unrighteousness. This hasn't happened yet. When it does I will be born again and enter the Kingdom of God. (I am in the Kingdom of Heaven right now, the SDA church-so is everyone that loves and tries to follow the 10 Commandments and the words of Jesus Christ.)

The fact that I am still a sinner grates on me something fierce. I long for the day when I will achieve the character of Jesus Christ in my life, the character of perfect obedience to my Father in Heaven. I have dedicated my life and service to Jesus Christ as a bondservant, placing both my life and my death into the very capable hands of my Commander. For this I have been roundly abused by Satan. He does not give a hoot for anyone that is already on his side, but he goes out of his way to place in jeopardy those that declare themselves bondservants of Jesus.

My Story~(this is a personal testimony, you can stop reading here and it won't hurt my feelings. I was impressed that this was the right time and place for this, so please forgive the length.)

I was reared in the SDA church, and have believed that Jesus is my Savior since I was baptized at age 12. I made the formal commitment to being a bondservant of Jesus Christ a little over 5 years ago. Up until that time my life had been fairly normal; work, get married, have two kids, dogs, cats, all that sort of stuff. Yet right after I declared my bondservice to Jesus Christ I was diagnosed with a surface malignant melanoma. Nothing really to worry about and it was removed successfully, or so I thought. One year later, as I was in the process of working on the manuscript for my book (co authored by wayfinder) I was again diagnosed with a sub-surface malignant melanoma in exactly the same location, this time a stage three killer (90% mortality). It was highly likely that if it didn't kill me I would be an invalid with no neck muscles on the right side of my neck and shoulder.

During the wait for a surgery time my family and I went on what was likely to be our last vacation. We spent one week at Hume Lake in the High Sierra's. During that week I finished the manuscript, working early in the morning, and staying up late a night, because I was sure that this would be my last opportunity to finish it, as my surgical result would preclude any further writing on my part.

The surgery was successful beyond my wildest imagining. It was the very first time that my doctor had ever seen a malignant melanoma that had not spread to the adjoining tissue. It was encapsulated. He was so surprised that he stopped the surgery and called for a consult while I was still under general anesthesia, where the Chief head and neck surgeon said just to take one muscle and nerve and all of the lymph nodes in the right side of my neck and that would be enough.

I underwent Proton beam therapy, interferon-A therapy for a year and I was cured.

Then I went blind in my left eye due to the interferon (interferon retinopathy). There is no hope of recovering any sight in that eye.

In June of 2008 even though I have never been overweight and had no previous health indicators I had a major heart attack (completely blocked right descending coronary artery) and would have died had everything not worked out perfectly: my daughter actually answered her phone on the first ring and called for the ambulance as I finished driving home; getting to LLUMC within a 15 min. window, otherwise the cath lab would have been in use; and also including having wayfinder as my scrub nurse in the OR, having replaced the original nurse at the last minute, coming in on his day off.

There are just too many coincidences for this to be happenstance.

It is clear to me that Satan HATES anyone that is completely dedicated to Jesus Christ and His service. Satan did not want the book "The Spirit of the Church" published, and went out of his way to stop it. I do not believe that any of this was just luck, either the getting of these illnesses or in the recovery from them.

I have given you this account for the following reason; your accusation that I am a sinner is very true. Yet I also know that as a declared bondservant of Jesus Christ my life is His to use as He sees fit. So far, through all of the trials of the last 5 years or so, Jesus has seen fit to preserve me for some purpose. At least three times He could have allowed me to die from these situations, yet He saw fit to preserve me. Why? Because I am to be of some further use to Him in telling people the Truth about who He really is and what He really came to do.

I have believed and understood much of what I discuss here with you on this forum for a long time. At any time should Jesus choose He can take my life because I have bonded myself to Him in service, either in life or death. The ONLY reason that I can see that He has preserved my life (and that of Dr. Rich and wayfinder and numerous others) is that I am doing His will in giving the information He wants me to give to the Kingdom of Heaven.

You can (and probably will) find much fault in my story. You will probably even make the claim that God is allowing this to happen to me to bring me back to the truth the way you and the church sees it. It is just that I KNOW that God does not use evil to promote good. God does not make or even allow anyone suffer for the joy of seeing them suffer. Jesus already knows that He can take my life anytime He chooses, so the only reason that He has not must be that I am doing His will.

So consider carefully what I and the others say concerning Truth, and don't dismiss it out of hand just because it does not fit your paradigm. We are here on this forum, and on the web and on internet radio for a reason that goes far beyond anything your or our minds can conceive. The fact that we do not agree with the norms of the SDA church is not sufficient reason to put yourself in harms way by rejecting out of hand that which we bring to the table.

When Jesus came to earth He shook up the established religion so much so that they desired to kill him for it. We are merely following in our Master's footsteps in doing in our day exactly what He did in His day. We often get the same response from our contemporaries as He got from His; incredulity, distrust, anger, resentment that we are not following the old truths, that we are bringing new truth that contradicts 'That Old Time Religion'. This in and of itself should be a clue as to the validity of the message-the more people or faith rail against it the more likely it is to be true. It was true in the time if Jesus, and it is still true today.

I love Jesus with all my heart, and have dedicated my life (or death) to His service. I have asked Him repeatedly to take my life if I am in any way misrepresenting Him to the Kingdom of Heaven (Dr Rich will confirm this). I do not ask that you believe me; I do ask that you believe the words and teachings of Jesus Christ before all others (no matter how inspired you believe them to be).

[Guest]

God sparing your life may not have anything to do with the book at all. Have you ever thought of that? And concerning your prayers for death if you're wrong: God doesn't always answer our prayers in the way that we tell Him to. Nor is the answer always yes.

You seem to be putting a lot of stock in the belief that God will answer your prayers in the way you have layed out for Him.

[Musicman1228]

How about that, Richard. I just knew that you wouldn't be able to accept my testimony as valid under any conditions. No matter, because I KNOW what I have experienced is the mighty hand of God working to preserve my life for a specific reason. You have no idea what it means to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, so all you can do is watch from the side lines and criticize something about which you know nothing. Here I have exposed my heart and soul to you and all you can think to do is find fault. You have my deepest sympathy.

[WayneV]

Robert, your statement confuses me. First you ask the question "Are you free of selfishness or are you bent to self?" Then in the next paragraph you say "You need to give up your self-righteousness for the righteousness of Christ or I can guarantee you that you will not enter into heaven!"

Please explain to me how YOUR guarantee of someone not getting into heaven reflects the righteousness of Christ. Is it not God's job to judge men?

Is that all you got? Is this what we must resort to in order to avoid answering Robert's question?

By the way, Robert, I am free of selfishness. However, I am not yet perfected in Christ's likeness. When I say that I am free of selfishness, I mean that I am free of selfishness "in Christ". What are you gonna do with that?

Agape`

[Robert]

Is it not God's job to judge men?

Rom 3:20 For no flesh will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, for through the law [comes] the knowledge of sin [singular].

God has said that no one will be justified based on his law performance. Why? None are measuring up! So, if you think you can I guarantee you that you will be disappointed.

Now what is sin? What is the basis of our sinning?

David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning....

Sin (singular), therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

[Robert]

I mean that I am free of selfishness "in Christ". What are you gonna do with that?

Agape`

I have no quarrel with this...

[Robert]

Robert, you would be right, except that I am dirt poor and have NO money.

Apparently you have a computer.....Do you have a roof over your head? Car?

[Robert]

But that does not release me from doing what He has told me to do. (that's what babylonians preach)

"If you want to be perfect," Jesus said to him [this man claimed to keep the law just as many SDA do], "go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me [walk as I do in complete selflessness]." That's seeking not your own, but another's wealth the complete opposite of your bent to self....

Hence if you wish to enter heaven "you are to be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Waiting....

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

But that does not release me from doing what He has told me to do. (that's what babylonians preach)

"If you want to be perfect," Jesus said to him [this man claimed to keep the law just as many SDA do], "go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me [walk as I do in complete selflessness]." That's seeking not your own, but another's wealth the complete opposite of your bent to self....

Hence if you wish to enter heaven "you are to be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Waiting....

What Jesus was saying to the rich young ruler, was the process to eternal life. First keep the commandments of God, then make time for God, then become a disciple of Jesus Christ. As a disciple Jesus is your teacher, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. He was not saying that he needed to become poor and selfless, He was saying learn the truth and become a teacher of truth.

[Robert]

What Jesus was saying to the rich young ruler, was the process to eternal life.

[wayfinder]

Jesus was not the poorest man on earth, He was the richest. He had the truth, truth is the currency of heaven. Think of it if you were going to design the perfect currency what would be it's charicteristics. Truth is of no value if you horde it, and cannot be stolen, and those who don't recognize it want nothing to do with it. It increases in value when you give it away, and when you give it away you never have less. You earn truth by learning truth. Think of the story of the talents in this analogy. Gold is what the streets of the New Jerusalem are paved with.

[Robert]

Jesus was not the poorest man on earth, He was the richest.

But Jesus said, "Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head."

[Dr. Rich]

Not having a home to call his own is not saying that Jesus was poor. After all, if the streets of heaven are paved with gold, and since the good and faithful servant (Matthew 24:45) will be given charge over everything that Jesus has, then Jesus can't be poor and was not poor.

[Musicman1228]

As to the penury of Jesus: Do you remember who the uncle of Jesus was? It was Joseph of Aramethea, who was a shipping magnate, running cargo throughout the Med and going as far away as England to ship tin back to Israel. He was very wealth. There is anecdotal evidence that Jesus went on some of these trips before He began his ministry. It is likely that He used some of the proceeds of the gifts that He received from the Magi as investment capitol and as such was most probably quite wealthy in His own right before He began His ministry. Remember, we are dealing with the King of the Kingdom of Heaven and His Father would not have left Him a pauper when it was not necessary in the fulfillment of His mission.

Apparently the Disciples knew that Jesus had money because when they were faced with a crowd of hungry people they said to Jesus that it would take a lot more money than they had to feed them. The way they said this implies to me that Jesus had some money with Him but not enough right then to take care of the situation.

When Jesus was at Cana for the wedding it is also apparent that Mary was paying for the wedding feast for the couple because she was approached by the wine steward about running out of wine. He would not have gone to Mary with this problem if she had nothing to do with it. The only way a widow could have afforded this was if she ha access to a lot of money. When she asked Jesus to do something about the situation Jesus was placed in a catch-22 situation; He knew that it was not time for Him to reveal Himself in this manner, but He also knew that if He refused His 'mother' He would be breaking a Commandment. This actually could be the 4th temptation of Christ set up by Satan to try to get Jesus to not honor His mother. At that time of night there was no place to buy any more wine so Mary, knowing who He son really was, basically to Jesus to do a miracle which would get her out of an embarrassing situation.

There is another important question to ask; why would Judas have tried so hard to become a Disciple of Jesus if Jesus was broke. Judas was well aware that Jesus was 'well off'. Jesus knew that Judas wanted to be a disciple in order to skim funds from the account, but He let it go knowing what was coming, yet hoping Judas would change.

The Roman soldiers that nailed Jesus to the cross fought over His outer garment. Why? Because it was very expensive, a single woven garment with no seams or stitching. How could Jesus afford this if He didn't have a sufficiency of money.

I firmly believe that money was NEVER an issue for Jesus because He always had enough for His needs. This is a good indicator that Jesus was His Father's (God) son. It also shows me that at the time of the end the Bondservants of Jesus Christ will be given sufficient funds to accomplish the task for which God has sealed them. There wil never be a lack of money that is necessary to accomplish the will of God.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: As to the penury of Jesus: Do you remember who the uncle of Jesus was? It was Joseph of Aramethea, who was a shipping magnate, running cargo throughout the Med and going as far away as England to ship tin back to Israel. He was very wealth. There is anecdotal evidence that Jesus went on some of these trips before He began his ministry.

Isn't this based on stories and legends that go a long way back? But is there any solid evidence that this is true?

It's taught by people such as Herbert Armstrong and is found in some fictional accounts of Jesus. But so far as I know there's nothing truly historical which shows that Jospeh of Aramethea was Jesus' uncle or that Jesus went to Europe before He began His public ministry.

What say you?

[Robert]

Not having a home to call his own is not saying that Jesus was poor. After all, if the streets of heaven are paved with gold, and since the good and faithful servant (Matthew 24:45) will be given charge over everything that Jesus has, then Jesus can't be poor and was not poor.

Jesus was poor because in Him there was not one ounce of self-seeking. He lived not for Himself, which is the prequisite for wealth in this world under Lucifer's principle of self-love, and the result was poverty. Hence the evidence of Christ's selfless love was that He was without.

Heaven's love is 180 out with our love of self....In heaven none will think of self....You'll have wealth because others are living for your good and others will have wealth because you live for them.

There will be no self-love, self-seeking, competition or any such evil in heaven. Here it's common...in fact none of us our free of our bent to self. Getting your wealth was no accident. It took a lot of sin (i.e., the love of self, one's bent to self) to get it....You are a sinner; no matter how you look at it....Good luck on your works getting you in....It won't happen!

[Guest]

Because of the rich young ruler's circumstances, (he loved money more than God) that's what Jesus told him HE should do. He did not say everybody should do that! That would be ridiculous. Then there would be no need for the tithe, because all the followers would be broke. Having money is not a sin. It is the LOVE of money that causes problems.

Ecc 5:18,19 Behold that which I have seen: it is good and fitting for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for this is his lot. Every man also to whom God has given riches and wealth, and has given him power to eat of it, and to accept his lot, and to rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God.

Deu 8:18 But you shall remember the LORD your God: for it is he that gives you power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto your fathers, as it is this day.

[Musicman1228]

Amen, Richard.

Robert, just because information is not in Scripture does not automatically invalidate it. Anecdotal evidence is just that, personal accounts passed down through either written material or word of mouth. Legend always has elements of truth, which is why it becomes legend. What we have to do is decypher that legend and decide what is probable and what is improbable.

It is evident that Jesus knew Joseph of Aremathea well enough for Joseph to offer free of charge his own burial plot. It is also obvious that Jesus was in communication with members of the Sanhedrin such as Nicodemus and Joseph, and these people were elitists such that they would never be seen much less talk with someone that is below their status. Both of these men considered Jesus a peer.

It is not out of the question that when Joseph, Mary and Jesus escaped to Egypt taking with them the fabulous wealth given them by the Wise men that Joseph invested this wealth and possibly turned it into more wealth which they took back to Nazareth and used to make a happy and safe environment in which to bring Jesus from childhood to adulthood. At that time Egypt was the financial capitol of the world and it would have made perfect sense to take Jesus there so that they could turn the gold, frankincense, and myrrh into a safe place for Jesus to grow up. God told Joseph to take Mary and the baby to Egypt for a reason, and I think this was it.

[Robert]

Because of the rich young ruler's circumstances, (he loved money more than God) that's what Jesus told him HE should do. He did not say everybody should do that! That would be ridiculous.

[Robert]

He did not say everybody should do that! That would be ridiculous.

Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." 14 Jesus replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" 15 Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." ....22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life ? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? 27 "Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things [food & clothing], and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. 32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

[wayfinder]

Matthew was there when Jesus said this, his account is different than Luke's, who was not there. I will take Matthew's account over Luke's whenever there is a discrepancy. I realize that according to the account in Matthew, he had not been called yet, but that does not mean he had not heard what Jesus was teaching or was told after his calling. One thing I know for sure, Luke never knew Jesus personally and never heard Him teach, his information came mostly from Paul and Luke's account definately has a Pauline flavor to it.

Matthew 6:28 "And why are you worried about clothing ? Observe how the lilies of the field grow ; they do not toil nor do they spin,

29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.

30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith !

31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will wear for clothing?'

32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things ; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34 "So do not worry about tomorrow ; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own