What does this mean?

[Guest]

In case you didn't notice MM, the text came from the book of John. Who you claim to believe. Are you now saying that John can't be trusted here?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And oh how I wish you could find another topic to highjack a thread with. Anything, other than "Paul was inspired by Satan".

And MM, just because you say Paul was inspired by Satan, does NOT make it so.

[Dr. Rich]

Daniel 12:10 "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

The branch will be trimmed (purified) so that it will bears more good fruit. There is nothing here about adoption and grafting. If a branch is cut off it is burned up--period! The branch MUST remain with the vine. I take this to mean that one must remain with the words and teachings of Jesus and to not follow another teaching from someone else.

[Musicman1228]

In case you didn't notice MM, the text came from the book of John. Who you claim to believe. Are you now saying that John can't be trusted here?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And oh how I wish you could find another topic to highjack a thread with. Anything, other than "Paul was inspired by Satan".

And MM, just because you say Paul was inspired by Satan, does NOT make it so.

That text DOES NOT speak of adoption, does it. You are reading more into the text than is actually there. This is a tendency you have that I believe you get from your good friend Paul, who does the same thing. Maybe you should think of yourself as a son of Paul since you believe him over the words of Jesus.

As to 'hijacking topics'; you are the one that continues to bring up the subject, I am only responding you your comments. If you want the topic dropped they do so yourself.

[WayneV]

Richard and MM,

Have either of you considered that Jesus and Paul were illustrating different things with their metaphorical statements. To begin with, who is it that each was speaking to? Jesus was addressing Jews. Paul was adressing gentiles. This accounts for some of the discrepency. Also, each of them were speaking to the understanding that was in existence at the time, which is that the Jews were the natural descendents of God through Abraham and Israel. The Gentiles were not natural descendents.

Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other.

Agape`

[Archie777]

Daniel 12:10 "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

The branch will be trimmed (purified) so that it will bears more good fruit. There is nothing here about adoption and grafting. If a branch is cut off it is burned up--period! The branch MUST remain with the vine. I take this to mean that one must remain with the words and teachings of Jesus and to not follow another teaching from someone else.

Do born-again believers sin while they are part of the parent tree?

What about backsliding born-again believers? Are they a part of the parent tree?

If a born-again believer is cut off, does it mean they are ineligible to experience rebirth again?

[Musicman1228]

According to Jesus if you continue to sin you cannot be 'born again'. When you are born again you DO NOT sin. As far as I know there is no one today that qualifies under these conditions to be called 'born again'.

There is no family member that have the family name "God" that sin. This would be like saying that Jesus could sin and still be called 'The Son of God'. The 'Family of God' and sin are mutually exclusive.

[wayfinder]

When one is born again by the Spirit of God, they are at that moment a son/daughter of God. A son or daughter of God has completed the scantification process they are complete in righteousness, no lie is in their mouth, they are blameless; therefore they will never sin or fall short of the glory of God. There are many who sincerly believe that one must make a statement of belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and they are bornagain, this simply is not true.

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[karl]

When one is born again by the Spirit of God, they are at that moment a son/daughter of God. A son or daughter of God has completed the scantification process they are complete in righteousness, no lie is in their mouth, they are blameless; therefore they will never sin or fall short of the glory of God.

I believe born again Christians have completed their sanctification process UP TO THAT POINT. They are not done. First the corn, then the ear.... They press on toward the mark. There will be more convictions of sin and of righteousness to come. More battles to face.

[Guest]

Richard and MM,

Have either of you considered that Jesus and Paul were illustrating different things with their metaphorical statements. To begin with, who is it that each was speaking to? Jesus was addressing Jews. Paul was adressing gentiles. This accounts for some of the discrepency. Also, each of them were speaking to the understanding that was in existence at the time, which is that the Jews were the natural descendents of God through Abraham and Israel. The Gentiles were not natural descendents.

Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other.

Agape`

Amen Wayne, and yes I do understand that they were talking to two different groups of people. But I try to word things so that MM can understand them. (a very daunting task)

[Guest]

I believe born again Christians have completed their sanctification process UP TO THAT POINT. They are not done. First the corn, then the ear.... They press on toward the mark. There will be more convictions of sin and of righteousness to come. More battles to face.

Amen karl

[Guest]

As to 'hijacking topics'; you are the one that continues to bring up the subject, I am only responding you your comments. If you want the topic dropped they do so yourself.

Show me where I asked you anything about Paul.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: musicman

As to 'hijacking topics'; you are the one that continues to bring up the subject, I am only responding you your comments. If you want the topic dropped they do so yourself.

Show me where I asked you anything about Paul.

You ask questions or make comment on issues using Paul as a main source of proof for your positions. I counter only with the words and teachings of Jesus, and for doing this I am accused of 'hijacking' a topic. You ask me to remain silent when you bring these 'proofs' from the writings of Paul (or EGW) and threaten dire consequences should I do so. In your belief that Paul is who you say he is you deliberately 'stack the deck' against those who hold an alternative point of view. Without some kind of a response from me and others you would claim that you have given sufficient proofs to support your position. Yet you declare that any response I or others give is 'hijacking' a topic when we counter or parry using the words of Jesus, thereby pointing out the differences. Not only is this unfair, it is disingenuous, and limits discourse to only those of like minds to you. Where is the fun in that? A level playing field in these discussions should include room for all participants to bring their thoughts and understandings without fear of threat or coercion.

[Christopher]

Quote:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way.: They place themselves beyond His protection... He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

Yep she read Roamans 1 also :)

[Guest]

You ask questions or make comment on issues using Paul as a main source of proof for your positions. I counter only with the words and teachings of Jesus, and for doing this I am accused of 'hijacking' a topic. You ask me to remain silent when you bring these 'proofs' from the writings of Paul (or EGW) and threaten dire consequences should I do so. In your belief that Paul is who you say he is you deliberately 'stack the deck' against those who hold an alternative point of view. Without some kind of a response from me and others you would claim that you have given sufficient proofs to support your position. Yet you declare that any response I or others give is 'hijacking' a topic when we counter or parry using the words of Jesus, thereby pointing out the differences. Not only is this unfair, it is disingenuous, and limits discourse to only those of like minds to you. Where is the fun in that? A level playing field in these discussions should include room for all participants to bring their thoughts and understandings without fear of threat or coercion.

Stack the deck? You mean like you do everytime you debate somebody, and tell them that they can't use the writings of Paul, or EGW? You're trying to compare apples to oranges, but it won't work.

You see if I had said:

"Ok I'll debate you, but you can't use anything but the writings of Paul, because I don't believe the people who wrote the words in red were telling the truth."

Then you would be comparing apples to apples. But nobody has ever said that to you.

So you assume (wrongly) that it's fair for you to tell me what books of the Bible I can and can't use. Without any restrictions being put on yourself. That's laughable.

You are at an Adventist forum. SDAs believe the writings of Paul. If you want to debate some people who don't believe Paul's writings, then you need to go and find some people who don't believe Paul's writings. (I assure you they won't be SDAs)

Instead of thinking you can handicap us SDAs by telling us we can't use the scripture we believe in, and it still be fair or right. You should be able to prove your points not using Paul, but not restricting anybody, since you are not being restricted.

Basically what you are saying here is that anytime somebody mentions the name Paul, or quotes one of his texts, that then you are free to change the topic, and highjack the thread. No matter what the topic may be. I don't think the moderator will agree with you.

Perhaps you should consider the fact that maybe SDAs are not the best group to try and preach this nonsense to. Surely there are some Paul haters out there somewhere.

[Archie777]

Musicman, did you mean to say people who experience rebirth lose the ability and freedom to sin? Did Jesus create A&E with the ability and freedom to sin? Did A&E experience rebirth? Will A&E be in heaven?

[wayfinder]

Musicman is at a concert, so let me explain. First of all, the difference between A&E is that they were created without sin, we are born in it. A&E were neither righteous or unrighteous when created, for they had not had time to demonstrate either quality. The purpose for the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil, or righteousness and unrighteousness, was this, if A&E obeyed God they would be righteous and learn that obedience to God's command is righteousness. If they disobeyed they would learn unrighteousness and become unrighteous. As I said before, we are born in unrighteousness and therefore must be born again into righteousness. We must first learn righteousness (this is the scantification process) and them we will be born again, not as flesh and blood, but as sons and daughters of God. Just as Jesus could have sinned at anytime, but did not, so those who are born again could sin, but will not. And as far as A&E being in heaven, I am not the judge, but I do believe they will be.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, wayfinder's reply says it all. I wrote out the answers to your questions, but wayfinder's reply is simple to understnd.

I have yet to meet or see someone who has truly been born again. I used to have a finder's fee of 10k that I would give anyone who produced someone for me to inspect who is truly born again by the same Mother (Holy Spirit) as Jesus Christ, therefore this would make this person a Son or Daughter of God.

Of course they could sin; they just refuse to do so. They also will not have any lie in their mouth--neither will they be practicing a lie or anything that is against the words of Jesus Christ.

Archie, there will be a time that this will happen to 144,000 and they will be the ones who are hungry for the food (spiritual) that the ONE person found in Matthew 24:45 will be feeding them.

Jesus said that a type of Elijah will precede His coming like a thief, just as John the Baptist was before Him before. The rulers and teachers of the law/religion were totally unaware of this because their minds were so filled with their own understanding. How sad it will be for those who are the foolish bridesmaids for they are the ones that will be doing the same thing as what happened before. History does repeat itself.

Therefore, it would be a good thing NOT to criticize others who may have a differing view point, but to actually investigate the possibility that this new message could be true?

[Archie777]

If A&E were created without sin and were neither righteous nor unrighteous - what were they before they sinned?

At His incarnation, was Jesus neither righteous nor unrighteous?

Do people experience rebirth in heaven? Or, do they experience it here?

[Dr. Rich]

Question (1) "If A&E were created without sin and were neither righteous nor unrighteous - what were they before they sinned?"

Answer: Mortal humans with access to the tree of life.

Question: (2) "At His incarnation, was Jesus neither righteous nor unrighteous?

Answer: He had to be righteous, for He was spotless like the Passover lamb. This would also mean that He could NOT have any genetic DNA from Mary. Jesus' real Mother was the Holy Spirit and His Father was God Almighty. (Revelation 12 and Luke 1)

Question: (3) Do people experience rebirth in heaven? Or, do they experience it here?

Answer: Since the 144,000 are 'sealed' prior to the time of trouble, it would appear that they will experience this event here on earth. But then again, this group may be taken to heaven and then brought back to this earth to testify to the truth, them now being Sons and Daughters of God with great power(s) from God to do many things no one before has been able to do.

[Guest]

Question: (2) "At His incarnation, was Jesus neither righteous nor unrighteous?

Answer: He had to be righteous, for He was spotless like the Passover lamb. This would also mean that He could NOT have any genetic DNA from Mary. Jesus' real Mother was the Holy Spirit and His Father was God Almighty. (Revelation 12 and Luke 1)

I have yet to meet or see someone who has truly been born again. I used to have a finder's fee of 10k that I would give anyone who produced someone for me to inspect who is truly born again by the same Mother (Holy Spirit) as Jesus Christ, therefore this would make this person a Son or Daughter of God.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? You know it's not in the Bible Right? If Jesus could not have any DNA from mary, then God really messed up by having mary be His birth mother. The fact is, Mary was his mother, since she is the one that birthed him, and it would be impossible not to have her DNA. And technically the Holy Spirit was the father, NOT THE MOTHER!

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Rich

Question: (2) "At His incarnation, was Jesus neither righteous nor unrighteous?

Answer: He had to be righteous, for He was spotless like the Passover lamb. This would also mean that He could NOT have any genetic DNA from Mary. Jesus' real Mother was the Holy Spirit and His Father was God Almighty. (Revelation 12 and Luke 1)

I have yet to meet or see someone who has truly been born again. I used to have a finder's fee of 10k that I would give anyone who produced someone for me to inspect who is truly born again by the same Mother (Holy Spirit) as Jesus Christ, therefore this would make this person a Son or Daughter of God.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? You know it's not in the Bible Right? If Jesus could not have any DNA from mary, then God really messed up by having mary be His birth mother. The fact is, Mary was his mother, since she is the one that birthed him, and it would be impossible not to have her DNA. And technically the Holy Spirit was the father, NOT THE MOTHER!

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

I guess, Richard, you have never heard of a surrogate mother. A husband and wife that cannot have children themselves combines their DNA in vitro and has it implanted into a surrogate mother, who goes through the pregnancy and has the baby for the parents. This is just what happened with God the Father, God the Mother (Holy Spirit) and Mary. If Mary had ANY of her DNA given to Jesus the He would not have been perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

[Guest]

Ok show me where that is in the Bible, and I'll believe it. Otherwise give me a break! Anyone can speculate and come up with wild ideas. Which is all you have done here, and then presented it as fact. Please!

[Musicman1228]

You quoted the verse yourself, Richard, but I'll give it to you again:

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

Here, in this verse, we see the Mother-The Holy Spirit, and the Father-The Highest combine to have a baby by a surrogate mother, Mary. The baby is not called the son of Mary, the baby to be born will be called The Son of God. This could only happen if ONLY God produced the human DNA that was Jesus. If Mary had anything to do with the human body of Jesus then He would have had sin in Him because Mary would have passed that sinful DNA on to Jesus. This did not happen, therefore Mary could not possibly have had any DNA in Jesus.

And Richard, it doesn't matter to me whether you believe this or not, as you are not the arbiter of Truth.

[Guest]

Neither are you thank God. For you to get all of that out of that text just means your imagination, and powers of speculation are greater than I thought. Probably no less than a miracle of Satan. But that still doesn't make the text say what you want it to. Your total misunderstanding of what the Holy Spirit actually is would be part of your problem, but not the whole problem by any means.

[Musicman1228]

Richard, are you really accusing me of being a servant of Satan?