What does this mean?

[Archie777]

Dr. Rich, after thoroughly studying the truth as it is in Jesus, I am confident in Christ that I am not believing any lies. It is comforting to know I am following the sweet and gentle Jesus. His ways are my ways.

[Archie777]

Musicman, thank you.

[John317]

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Musicman1228: ....

Jesus was God and did not have a 'human nature' even though He was fully human, He had the very nature of God.

I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was and is fully God[theos] and fully human [both anthropos and andros]. He is a glorified man at this very time in the heavenly sanctuary, yet He is also Deity [theotetos]. That's mind-boggling because it means that we have an elder-brother who is the One who created the entire universe!!

That would be about the same as a man becoming a worm while he continues being a man. Think what it would mean for worms. It would mean that the worms could say they have one of their fellow-worms among the human race, which would elevate the worms to a higher status or value than they had ever known before. That gives us some idea of what it means to have a fellow human as God, but it also gives us an idea of what a sacrifice it was for God to allow His Son to become a human, i.e., a worm. FOR ETERNITY. Talk about hard to grasp,, right?!!!

What I find hard to grasp, too, is that while Jesus lay as a baby in the manger, He was truly God. Col. 1: 17 says that even then, as God He was continuing to uphold the universe, and if He hadn't the universe would have disintegrated or fallen apart. Compare Heb. 1: 3. Who is it that holds together all things by the word of His power? Jesus Christ, of course. And the texts say that in His Deity He has contunuously done it-- never stopped doing it, even when in the tomb.

But then, as Richard says, you believe as you do because you've left much of the Bible evidence behind. A lot of what Christ is telling you, you've rejected.

Yet even if you just accept the gospel of John, you can see that Jesus assumed a human nature and that He is still human. It's expressed strongly in John 1: 1-18, especially verse 14. It says that the Word became a man. That's a real man. No real man can be without a human nature; it's impossible by definition. That'd like saying a monkey can be a monkey without having a monkey's nature.

[John317]

Actually John, you're understanding of faith, trust and grace is close to what I believe and I don't have a problem with that. But I am sure you would agree that almost every Christian Church other then the SDAs basically believe that the ten commandments have been nailed to the cross and there is no need to keep them because we can't. Is it no wonder then, that arguments appear between all of these denominations?

I agree that a lot of this bad theology is due to confusion over the meaning of certain passages in Paul's letters. But that doesn't make it Paul's fault. If that was the case, we would have to blame Jesus for all the misunderstandings of His messages as well. Some people already do blame Jesus for horrible things like the crusades, for instance. There are others who are ready to blame Him for wars fought by so-called Christian nations.

The truth of the matter is that people who come to Paul with preconceived ideas about the law being done away with-- or about the immortality of the soul-- are going to see in Paul what they want to see. I guess you could say that is true of all of us when it comes to almost any piece of writing. Really, the only way around that is to be led by the Holy Spirit as we study it because He alone can convict us of the truth and apply it to our lives. We've got to have His eye-salve or we see nothing truly. Rev 3: 18.

[pnattmbtc]

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The truth of the matter is that people who come to Paul with preconceived ideas about the law being done away with-- or about the immortality of the soul-- are going to see in Paul what they want to see. I guess you could say that is true of all of us when it comes to almost any piece of writing.

Yes, this is true. I've mad this point often.

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Really, the only way around that is to be led by the Holy Spirit as we study it because He alone can convict us of the truth and apply it to our lives. We've got to have His eye-salve or we see nothing. Rev 3: 18.

Yes, indeed. And it helps if we're humble as we study.

[Dr. Rich]

What is easier to believe--that one must keep the commandments and the testimony of Jesus, OR that no one can't keep the commandments so Christ died for your sins and therefore you are saved by grace alone? Duh? It is impossible to have it both ways no matter how you slice and dice it. Either one is judged according to their works or works don't count. Believe in Jesus or believe in Paul--that is the choice people have to make.

And don't give me this .... that believing in Paul is the same as believing in Jesus--because it simply is NOT so! Same goes for any and all who have 'come in the name of Jesus' (see Matthew 24's warning not to become deceived) in the false belief that they have 'new' insider information given to them straight from God--no matter how nice their words have been packaged.

And THAT my friends is what ALL of the warnings in the 7 messages to us (SDA members) found in Revelation 2 and 3 is all about.

[pnattmbtc]

What counts is character. If you don't love God or the principles of His government, you wouldn't be happy in heaven.

[Dr. Rich]

pnattmbtc, is this what Jesus said? Didn't He say if you love God then you will keep His Commandments and His words? Therefore if one does not do this then wouldn't they not love God even though they say they do?

[pnattmbtc]

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pnattmbtc, is this what Jesus said?

I think it's in harmony with His teachings.

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Didn't He say if you love God then you will keep His Commandments and His words?

Is this different? Doesn't this (what you asked about) mean, "If you wish to be happy in heaven, keep My commandments and keep My words"?

Quote:

Therefore if one does not do this then wouldn't they not love God even though they say they do?

What I said is that what counts is character. If one does not love or the principles of His government, one wouldn't be happy in heaven.

I didn't say anything about what one says. What one says wouldn't change what I said, right? That is, whether one says one loves God doesn't make any difference as to whether or not one would be in heaven, does it?

[Musicman1228]

If it was impossible to keep the !0 Commandments of God just as He gave them to ancient Israel then God has a perverse mean streak, because He would have asked them to do something that He KNEW was impossible before He gave them the Commandments. Why didn't God at Sinai just say to Israel "All you have to do to be my Kingdom on earth is to say that you love me, no demonstration of that love is required." I mean really, that would have been much simpler and cleaner, wouldn't it?

This is what we have been asked to believe that happened: that God changed His mind mid stream and said that doing the Commandments is what He wanted in the first place, but that He made a mistake and didn't realize that no one could possibly do what He asked so He changed His mind and substituted 'salvation by grace through faith' for keeping the 10 Commandments.

This does not make any sense, because God knows the end from the beginning and would have known that no one could keep the 10 Commandments even before He instituted them at Sinai. This being the case if you believe in Paul's salvation by grace through faith then you must also believe that you no longer need to perform/keep the 10 Commandments, therefore you no longer need the 4th Commandment and worshiping and resting on Sunday is perfectly acceptable to God, so what is the big deal about being and SDA in the first place.

As Dr. Rich said, "You can't have it both ways." You must believe the one and reject the other, whichever you choose. There is no middle ground here.

[pnattmbtc]

MM, I can't make sense out of your post. For example, you write:

Quote:

Why didn't God at Sinai just say to Israel "All you have to do to be my Kingdom on earth is to say that you love me, no demonstration of that love is required." I mean really, that would have been much simpler and cleaner, wouldn't it?

How does this correspond to anything I wrote? As I pointed out:

Quote:

I didn't say anything about what one says. What one says wouldn't change what I said, right? That is, whether one says one loves God doesn't make any difference as to whether or not one would be in heaven, does it?

This is in the post you're responding to! So why would you ask me a question like the above? (which is based on what one says)

[Guest]

If it was impossible to keep the !0 Commandments of God just as He gave them to ancient Israel then God has a perverse mean streak, because He would have asked them to do something that He KNEW was impossible before He gave them the Commandments. Why didn't God at Sinai just say to Israel "All you have to do to be my Kingdom on earth is to say that you love me, no demonstration of that love is required."

Why would he have said that then. He's not saying that now. You have to keep the commandments. Then, and NOW. You won't make it to heaven if you don't. Where the Israelites went wrong, was in thinking they could do it on there own. (just like you mm) God tried over and over to get them to forsake their self suffiency, and depend on HIM, but most of them never did. We have the same problem today. Either people are trying to keep them on their own, without God's help, Or they say that it's impossible, (even with God's help) and so it's no longer neccessary to keep the law.

Either camp will cause you to be lost. Of course you would know this if you didn't insist on mis-quoting, and willfully mis-understanding Paul. And Jesus, I might add.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:25,26

[Robert]

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:25,26

Why do you persist in lifting quotes from their original meaning and then injecting your interpretation into them?

If you study the RYR with an open mind you will find the true answer. If not then if you insist on salvation by law then you must live Christ's life. Why? Jesus said, "I have kept my Father's commandments"! How was this revealed? Jesus "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same?

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, you are the exception to MOST people out there who call themselves Christians because you understand one must keep the commandments. MM and I are not writing about your own belief, we are concerned about those who forsake the commandments and the words of Jesus for the words of Paul, even IF they do not understand them "correctly" as John put it. I can slice and dice Paul's words to make them agree with what Jesus said, but then that is not what we are talking about.

Reading the first three commandments makes it very clear to me that the first and foremost thing one MUST do is completely love and honor God in everything you do. By simply keeping these three you demonstrate to God that you need His help in everything you do.

The "Rich and Young Ruler" found this out the hard way. He was trying to work his way to heaven by keeping the last seven commandments all the while forgetting the first three. Jesus explained that if you truly love Him, then follow Him--meaning obeying everything, not just bits and pieces.

[Robert]

The "Rich and Young Ruler" found this out the hard way. He was trying to work his way to heaven by keeping the last seven commandments all the while forgetting the first three.

So, the RYR could have worked his way into to heaven if he had kept those other commandments?

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, by keeping the first three you MUST love God--Come on man, can't you see this?

[Guest]

No Rich, Robert is one of those that believe it is impossible to obey, even with the power of the Holy Spirit. People that believe that have to do away with the law, and they twist Paul's words to achieve that. But that isn't what Paul teaches at all. But you couldn't convince Robert of that, even if you brought one back from the dead. Sad really.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Iniquity-

(Anomia) Strong's #G458

illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, transgression of) the law, unrighteousness.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

I am happy to say that I agree with you in this; that keeping the 10 Commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit is what one MUST do to be saved. Using 'grace' as a means of excusing disobedience is a sure way to find yourself outside of the New Jerusalem. Yeah!

[Guest]

There is no excuse for not keeping the commandments. And grace is more than one thing. It is forgiveness for your sins in the past, and it is the power to keep the law now, and in the future. Grace is power.

Jesus said: "Go and sin no more".

Jud 1:24 Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

[Robert]

No Rich, Robert is one of those that believe it is impossible to obey, even with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same?

[Robert]

There is no excuse for not keeping the commandments.

Jesus "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Can you say the same?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I don't understand why you ask people personal questions when discussing things. There's no logical relationship between whether Richard doesn't think or plan for himself and whether or not there's an excuse for keeping the commandments. Similarly, there's no relationship between Richard's planning and thinking and whether or not it's possible to obey the commandments by the power with the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

Amen pnat!

[Robert]

Robert, I don't understand why you ask people personal questions when discussing things.

[Musicman1228]

Robert said, "Because folks like Richard desire to place me back under the law....That's personal!"

There are many Christians that believe just a you do, Robert, that the Law is evil and un-doable; that trying to keep the Law of God is not necessary because Jesus did it for you; that the Law is a curse and Jesus became a curse for you and died with your sin on Him so you to take upon yourself His robe of righteousness. All of this is a massive lie perpetrated upon the church for one reason-to make people believe that that the Law of God has been laid aside in favor of grace by which one is given righteousness that has not been earned or paid for.

Robert, you and I have a completely different understanding of salvation and the process by which it is achieved. Your understanding says that salvation is a free gift of God through grace by faith, and this understanding comes to you from a human being that says that he is an apostle of Christ on the testimony of his own words. Your understanding says that Jesus died on the cross to save you from your sins, which is having Jesus put His robe of righteousness over your filthy rags. His righteousness covers you unrighteousness.

My understanding is that a person must achieve righteousness by entering the process of sanctification, which is abiding in the words of Jesus Christ that are the truth, replacing the lies in which you have lived with that truth, and eventually getting to the place where there is no more lies, only truth. At this point that person becomes sealed in the truth, becoming a bondservant of the Living God. My understanding states that Jesus died to pay the penalty for my sin, but I am fully responsible for eliminating that sin from my own life, with the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit (not by my own strength).

I don't see us agreeing on this any time soon. You are as sure of your method as I am of mine. I really hate bickering and arguing to no purpose. You can't see what I am trying to say and I certainly can't see what you are trying get me to believe. In a short time God will reveal to each of us what we need to know to survive the coming events. My prayer is that we will both be humble enough to allow God to show us what is true from what is a lie.