What does this mean?

[John317]

Quote:

WayneV: ...Jesus and Paul were illustrating different things with their metaphorical statements. To begin with, who is it that each was speaking to? Jesus was addressing Jews. Paul was adressing gentiles. This accounts for some of the discrepency. Also, each of them were speaking to the understanding that was in existence at the time, which is that the Jews were the natural descendents of God through Abraham and Israel. The Gentiles were not natural descendents.

Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other.

I think you make some good, valid points here, WayneV. There's also the fact that Paul was dealing with the issues being faced by the young, growing, and mostly non-Jewish Church. On the other hand, as you point out, Jesus was talking to Jews, who were more or less familiar with the laws and Scriptures of God. Those facts alone means that Paul's writings are going to be different from the words of Jesus. The teachings are in agreement, but they are addressing different issues and looking at the gospel from very different perspectives. Paul was trying to convey the gospel to a Gentile world, and therefore he had to use different metaphors and different concepts. If he hadn't, Christianity would have remained a Jewish sect instead of becoming the faith of all kinds of people and nations of the world, irresepctive of race and culture.

This is why I find it incredible that some people believe Jesus spoke all truth that was needed while He was on this earth and that there was no need of someone like the apostle Paul. For the same reason, it seems incredible to me that some people think God would have allowed the Greek scriptures to be filled with lies but that He would have kept the Hebrew scripture pure. The NT was written for the entire world in order to explain the coming of Christ and to prepare the world for Christ's return, so it seems to me there's good reason God would keep it pure as He did the Old Testament. After all, the OT was written primarily for the Jews and in order to help them prepare for Christ's first coming. So which is "more important"-- to keep a book for the small nation of Israel pure, or to keep pure the entire book that is for the whole world?

I'd like an a straightforward answer to this question, Wayfinder, Musicman, or Dr. Rich-- or anyone else who cares to weigh in on it.

[karl]

Here, in this verse, we see the Mother-The Holy Spirit, and the Father-The Highest combine to have a baby by a surrogate mother, Mary. The baby is not called the son of Mary, the baby to be born will be called The Son of God. This could only happen if ONLY God produced the human DNA that was Jesus. If Mary had anything to do with the human body of Jesus then He would have had sin in Him because Mary would have passed that sinful DNA on to Jesus. This did not happen, therefore Mary could not possibly have had any DNA in Jesus.

Romans 1:3

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

John 7:42

Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

2 Timothy 2:8

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Daniel 12:10 "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

... If a branch is cut off it is burned up--period! The branch MUST remain with the vine. I take this to mean that one must remain with the words and teachings of Jesus and to not follow another teaching from someone else.

I understand it to mean that one must remain with the words and teachings that Jesus inspired in all the Scriptures, including the Hebrew prophets. I would say that it means we're not to follow the teachings of those who are outside the Bible or of anyone who either plainly or subtly contradicts clear teachings of the Bible.

[Guest]

Richard, are you really accusing me of being a servant of Satan?

Well if you think about it, because of the stance you have taken, I have two choices. I can believe EGW and Paul, and Luke, and James etc. were inspired by Satan. Or I can believe that you three are. Which one of those choices do you think is easier for me to believe? If I had never studied the Bible, and were dependant on you for accurate information, maybe it would be a choice.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: .... A husband and wife that cannot have children themselves combines their DNA in vitro and has it implanted into a surrogate mother, who goes through the pregnancy and has the baby for the parents. This is just what happened with God the Father, God the Mother (Holy Spirit) and Mary. If Mary had ANY of her DNA given to Jesus the He would not have been perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

But the Bible doesn't teach that the Holy Spirit was or is a mother. The Bible specifically calls and refers to Mary as Jesus' mother. It never refers to the Holy Spirit in this way.

Jesus wasn't "perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God" because of how He was born. He was perfect and sinless because of His relatioship with His Father. He was born with the Holy Spirit already in His life the way born-again humans have the Spirit. Only Jesus had the Spirit from conception and therefore never needed to be converted or born-again. He was born converted and loved the Father from His very first conscious moment of life. This means He never had to overcome sinful habits. He resisted sin by the same power that we must use to resist and overcome sin: the power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very clear that Jesus' human nature was descended from Adam, Abraham, Rahab the prostitute, David the murderer, and all the rest of his ancestors. He was literally a Son of David. Jesus took great satisfaction in His legitimate title, Son of man. It means Son of dust-- Son of Adam. The Father gave Jesus authority to Judge because Jesus is truly the Son of man (John 5: 27). That gives me real hope!

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: are you really accusing me of being a servant of Satan?

Anyone, even Christians, can be used of Satan. Peter was. But that didn't mean Peter was any worse than anyone else, nor did it mean Peter had no chance of being saved or of doing a great work for God. Looking back, I have no doubt that I spent the greater part of my life being a servant of Satan. I didn't know it at the time. Even well-intentioned people can be, and sometimes are, servants of Satan.

[Archie777]

Question (1) "If A&E were created without sin and were neither righteous nor unrighteous - what were they before they sinned?"

Answer: Mortal humans with access to the tree of life.

Question: (2) "At His incarnation, was Jesus neither righteous nor unrighteous?

Answer: He had to be righteous, for He was spotless like the Passover lamb. This would also mean that He could NOT have any genetic DNA from Mary. Jesus' real Mother was the Holy Spirit and His Father was God Almighty. (Revelation 12 and Luke 1)

Question: (3) Do people experience rebirth in heaven? Or, do they experience it here?

Answer: Since the 144,000 are 'sealed' prior to the time of trouble, it would appear that they will experience this event here on earth. But then again, this group may be taken to heaven and then brought back to this earth to testify to the truth, them now being Sons and Daughters of God with great power(s) from God to do many things no one before has been able to do.

1. How long were A&E without sin and without righteousness? Did they sin within a few days of their creation? Or, did they have time to cultivate character before they sinned?

2. Has the Father and Holy Spirit had other children besides Jesus? And, is the fruit of their loins always human beings subject to disease and death? Also, did Jesus exist prior to His birth on earth?

3. Do people who experience rebirth undergo a physical transformation? And, must they undergo a physical transformation before they can begin developing sinless traits of character?

[Archie777]

If Mary had ANY of her DNA given to Jesus the He would not have been perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

Do you believe having human DNA is a sin? Is it equivalent to sinning? If so, where in the Bible is it taught? That is, where does it say, Sin is the transgression of DNA? Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not being facetious.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, first show me anywhere in the bible where Jesus Himself ever called Mary "Mother"? From my study, He always called her "Woman".

[Musicman1228]

Quote:

Musicman1228: .... A husband and wife that cannot have children themselves combines their DNA in vitro and has it implanted into a surrogate mother, who goes through the pregnancy and has the baby for the parents. This is just what happened with God the Father, God the Mother (Holy Spirit) and Mary. If Mary had ANY of her DNA given to Jesus the He would not have been perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

But the Bible doesn't teach that the Holy Spirit was or is a mother. The Bible specifically calls and refers to Mary as Jesus' mother. It never refers to the Holy Spirit in this way.

Jesus wasn't "perfect, blameless, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God" because of how He was born. He was perfect and sinless because of His relatioship with His Father. He was born with the Holy Spirit already in His life the way born-again humans have the Spirit. Only Jesus had the Spirit from conception and therefore never needed to be converted or born-again. He was born converted and loved the Father from His very first conscious moment of life. This means He never had to overcome sinful habits. He resisted sin by the same power that we must use to resist and overcome sin: the power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is very clear that Jesus' human nature was descended from Adam, Abraham, Rahab the prostitute, David the murderer, and all the rest of his ancestors. He was literally a Son of David. Jesus took great satisfaction in His legitimate title, Son of man. It means Son of dust-- Son of Adam. The Father gave Jesus authority to Judge because Jesus is truly the Son of man (John 5: 27). That gives me real hope!

John,

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Gen.1:26.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Gen. 1:27

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Gen.3:15.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. Rev. 12:1-2.

She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, Rev.12:5.

A family, any family, must have a father and mother if they are going to have children. The image of God is a man and a woman. God's family is not two Father's and a Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Holy Spirit is the feminine characteristic of the God head.

The woman in Gen. 3:15 is not Eve and is not Mary (the mother of Jesus). This is evident because the Serpent has offspring that are not snakes but people that have Satan as their father and the Scarlet woman as their mother (Rev.17). Therefore the Woman in this verse is not a human being, but is the Spirit that gives birth to the people of God.

The Woman that gives birth to Jesus Christ also gives birth to the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ;

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

Jesus was God and did not have a 'human nature' even though He was fully human, He had the very nature of God. When Adam's body was created God did not install a sinful 'human nature' as we know it today. Adam was created without sin, and this included his physical body. God could do no less for His own Son, who has been called the 'second Adam'. Just as Adam had to choose to be either righteous or unrighteous by demonstrating obedience or disobedience to his Father so to Jesus Christ had to display (deeds) either obedience or disobedience to HIS Father. We know by His actions that He obeyed in ALL things the will of His Father.

When we are physically born our natural birth we do not get to choose who are birth parents are. We have to take what is given us. This is not true for our spiritual birth. All of us must choose who our spiritual Father and Mother is. If we are of the truth we will choose obedience to our Father and Mother thereby choosing Holy Spirit birth; if we are of lies we have chosen the Serpent, Satan, as our Father and his evil spirit (Scarlet woman) as our parents.

In order for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as payment for the penalty of the disobedience of His Kingdom to be effective Jesus had to be both the Creator of the human race and come from the human race. He had to be the precedent and antecedent of humanity in order to qualify to intercede for His very human Kingdom. Jesus is Creator God (fully Divine), having formed Adam from the dust of the ground. He also had to be the descendent of Adam (fully human) to be able to pay the penalty. This is why God chose a young woman from the tribe of Judah (King David's tribe) to act as surrogate mother; so Jesus would have a human connection with His Kingdom. Jesus could have showed up in Israel a full grown human to begin His ministry but then there would have been questions as to where He came from. As it is there is no question that Jesus came from the royal family of Israel, then the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Passover Lamb had to be PERFECT in ALL aspects. If Jesus Christ had ANY sin in Him be virtue of being born of a human woman then He would not qualify to act on behalf of His Kingdom as the Passover, and purchase His Kingdom out of the world.

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev.5:9-10.

[Guest]

Quote:

Jesus was God and did not have a 'human nature' even though He was fully human, He had the very nature of God.

I can see how you might come to that erronious conclusion since you only believe a portion of your Bible. SDAs on the other hand, have not given themselves a lobotomy so to speak, and know the actual truth of the matter. Which there's no point going into here.

Actually some SDAs get this doctrine wrong also, but for totally different reasons.

[Musicman1228]

You said it but did not prove it, as usual. Oh well. This just shows that you are not an independent thinker, having decided to go along with the crowd. Be careful that you are not in the crowd that is on the wide road which leads to destruction.

[Guest]

I don't go along with any crowd. Actually most SDAs have this one wrong now. But I can't help that. It sure doesn't mean I have to get it wrong.

And as far as people saying things they can't prove goes, you're their leader. So I wouldn't talk to much. If I had any power to help you, I would.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Actually, I have observed the so-mentioned *does* go along with the crowd, imo.

Ewaye, my little omelet.

[wayfinder]

Before Jesus became the firstborn Son of God He lived in the form of an angel, I am not saying that He was an angel, but in the form of one, Michael, "who is like God", was and continues to be one of His names, another one of His names "The Angel of the Lord/God". It was Michael who led the Israelites out of Egypt and dwelt in the cloud.

Genesis 24:7 NAS

"The LORD, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my birth, and who spoke to me and who swore to me, saying, 'To your descendants I will give this land,' He will send His angel before you, and you will take a wife for my son from there.

Genesis 31:10 "And it came about at the time when the flock were mating that I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the male goats which were mating were striped, speckled, and mottled.

11 "Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am.'

12 "He said, 'Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled ; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you.

13 'I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.' "

Notice the "Angel" says "I am the God of Bethel".

Exodus 3:2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush ; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

3 So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."

4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses !" And he said, "Here I am."

5 Then He said, "Do not come near here ; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground."

6 He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Here again the "angel of the Lord" says "I am" the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exodus 23:20 "Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

21 "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice ; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.

22 "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

23 "For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites ; and I will completely destroy them.

Here God the Father is speaking to Moses and says that His angel has His Name (God) in Him, so this angels name is God.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham ?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

Here Jesus not only says He was alive in the days of Abraham, but He also says He is "I am" and that is why the Jews picked up stones to kill Him because He used the Name "I am" for Himself.

Mary was Jesus surrogate mother and this is why. If Mary provided any of her chromosomes in the conception process of the Son of God, Jesus would not have been what he was i.e. Michael. He would not, indeed, could not be eternal because He would have chromosomes which did not exist prior to Mary. God took Michael, God in the form of an Angel, and made Him a human zygote, but left Him eternal. The only difference in Michael was that He was now in the form of mankind and not an angel. Another fact to consider is this, we are not given the family tree of Mary. Research all you want and you will never find from what tribe Mary is from. We are told that her cousin Elizabeth was of the daughters of Levi, so this would make a stronger case that Mary may have also been of Levi. I find this very interesting because Joseph was of the tribe of Judah and the family of David, but we know for a fact that Joseph provided nothing at all to the conception process, and the possibility that Mary was a Levite this would make Jesus a true King and Priest, being from both tribes, just a thought.

Another thing, we are told that Mary taught Jesus while He was growing up, but when Jesus teaches as a boy and youth and adult, Mary appears suprised and somewhat embarrassed by His teaching, at least early on.

[Guest]

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.

The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. {Con 32}

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48}

What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him. {Con 18}

[Musicman1228]

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.

The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. {Con 32}

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48}

What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him. {Con 18}

And this proves what? Wayfinder used the Law and the Prophets which are the words of God, and the words of Jesus, and you used the unknown writer of Hebrews and EGW who does not have Scriptural authority. I wonder who we should believe? The unfortunate thing, Richard, is that you truly believe that you have given Scriptural proof when in fact you have done nothing of the kind. This is called self delusion. It has finally dawned on me that you are not interested in finding the Truth that is singular and absolute, you are only interested in promoting YOUR version of truth.

The reason that you can't see the Truth is that you believe that the same spirit that gave EGW her information is giving you your information. You are absolutely correct in this belief. Unfortunately this spirit is not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth.

[Guest]

Quote:

you are only interested in promoting YOUR version of truth.

And whose version are you promoting?

[Musicman1228]

There is only one truth that is singular and absolute, and the author of ALL truth is the Creator God. Anything that is True come from God, anything that is not true comes from Satan, the false god. Truth is life, lies are death. Therefore, if you think I am from Satan you then must believe that I want to serve the dead god and ultimately die forever. Wow, that makes total sense to me. I don't even think this of you. I don't believe that you are with knowledge and forethought deliberately choosing to believe a lie as if it is the truth, you are merely being deceived. That is a real possibility for any of us, me included, so that is why we need to look at everything we believe without the filters of the church, EGW or anything other than the very words of Jesus Christ and of God.

This will probably seem unreasonable and unnecessary to you, and that is why you are maybe being deceived. When you look at truth through filters you are never really able to see the unvarnished TRUTH. I am not saying that my understanding IS the Truth, but you will never know if it is or isn't because you refuse to look at anything that I (we) bring to the table because you have blinders that disallow you to look at anything that is not already in your belief system. The real tragedy of this situation is that the cure is so simple yet so difficult to accomplish because it requires humility of mind and a willingness to look at Truth in an entirely new way. I don't want you or anyone to believe me because I say it, you must understand truth because YOU have looked at it honestly and come to the Truth yourself. This cannot happen if you already believe that you know all the truth already.

[Archie777]

I am one who follows the "crowd". I do not rely on myself to arrive at truth. I accept the entire testimony of the Bible and of the SOP. In particular, I believe Jesus spoke the truth through Paul and Ellen White. I conform to their conclusions. I can testify to their truthfulness. I have peace of mind.

[Musicman1228]

Archie,

I understand how important the church is to you, because it is just as important if not more to me. I have an understanding about our church that few in the SDA church can even conceive. I believe we are in actual fact the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25:1-13, the Kingdom of the 10 sleeping bridesmaids. We are a special church with a special God given commission, we are the rock cut out without hands of Daniel 2:44-45.

But being a part of this Kingdom does not take away your personal responsibility for knowing what is true from what isn't. Even EGW said that you will be held responsible not just for what you know but for what you had the opportunity to learn but didn't. Don't let yourself be caught in the trap of believing that you know all of the truth and thereby be unavailable to learn anything new. Don't make the mistake of believing that God has nothing new to teach you and His Kingdom of Heaven.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, I am so sad to see that you have written: "I am one who follows the "crowd". For the crowd will be on the wide road and will be filled with those who sit on the fence, refusing to search for the truth falsely thinking they are in need of nothing. We all need to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit so we can find the absolute one truth and be unified in the words of Jesus.

[Archie777]

MM and DR, thank you for your sweet and special concern for my soul. It speaks well of your walk with Jesus. But please understand that I have been 35 years arriving at the truth as it is in Jesus. So great was my desire to know Jesus that I pursued and obtained undergrad and postgrad degrees in biblical studies. I have not arrived at the 28 fundamental beliefs of the SDA church lightly. I am certain there is perfect harmony in the Bible. From Genesis to Revelation, the character and kingdom of God is consistent and convincing. Believing in the truth has resulted in me experiencing the miracle of rebirth and conversion. While I'm abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature the results are real and righteous. Although I am enjoying the ride here and now, I am, nevertheless, looking forward to that day when Jesus returns and changes us in the twinkling of an eye.

Hebrews

12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

My "cloud of witnesses" includes Paul and Ellen White. I am as certain of the truth as you are uncertain of the truth. Please do not fault me for my faith. Again, it is based on thorough study and testimony.

[Dr. Rich]

Not sure if I read you the right way Archie, but it is clear that at lest one of us is not being led by the Holy Spirit. If it is me who has been deceived then there must be something wrong with obeying the words of Jesus Christ and Him only.

Jesus chose those who had not been 'stained' by the teaching of the leaders of His time for a good reason. Getting degrees in theology or religion will not, one itself, guarantee salvation.

When the time comes, and it will be soon, for the 100,000 to learn the absolute truth that brings unity, please remember the words of Jesus, and if possible, and repent for believing all of the lies that others have brought to the table. We all need to seriously pray for the understanding of real truth and have an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us. Also remember that a mind is like a parachute, in that it is deadly if it fails to be open.

[Musicman1228]

Archie,

I would NEVER find fault with you faith, because it is something that you have studied toward for years. You know what you believe, yet you are not afraid to look at 'new light' should it come your way. You are not frightened of putting your faith to the test, which makes you a rather remarkable person.

I have found that when someone is unsure of what it is they believe they become defensive when they are challenged. When you are challenged you don't become defensive, you merely look at the new or alternative material and decide what part (if any) you wish to incorporate into your paradigm. That is all God can ask of anyone. I count you as a brother in Jesus Christ.