What does it mean to be "cleansed" from sins?

[Twilight]

As above.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

As above.

Mark :-)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

While we do grow spiritually (overcome certain habits, sins) we still aren't living the life of Christ (besides the 144,000 are who are fully matured) and therefore we can't say we are without sin.

It seems that this purification is a process.... It is a process of maturing (sanctification) as we stand fully on the platform of justification by faith for our assurance. It includes forgiveness, repentance (admitting we are falling short) and maturity, but it can not refer perfection. Only "in Christ" can we say that we are perfect.

[Gerr]

If cleansing only applies to guilt, there would never be an end to sin. But grace gets to the heart of the matter, through the blood not only cleanses from the guilt of sin, but per Fink, also from the power of sin, the presence of sin, the penalty of sin, and even the pleasure of sin.

[Twilight]

So do we believe that Jesus "can" cleanse us from all sin?

[olger]

Amen. Yes He can.

[Gerr]

So do we believe that Jesus "can" cleanse us from all sin?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9 ESV

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So do we believe that Jesus "can" cleanse us from all sin?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9 ESV

Ah, but the conundrum: "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

[Twilight]

If cleansing only applies to guilt, there would never be an end to sin. But grace gets to the heart of the matter, through the blood not only cleanses from the guilt of sin, but per Fink, also from the power of sin, the presence of sin, the penalty of sin, and even the pleasure of sin.

I agree with this, but how does the passage Robert quoted fit in with this?

Where John says "if we say we have no sin"?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful & just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9 ESV

Ah, but the conundrum: "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

Indeed, but saying we have sin but Jesus can cleanse us from that sin is not unbiblical is it?

Does Jesus cleanse us from all sin or not?

[Guest]

Ah, but the conundrum: "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

What conundrum? Who said they had no sin? Nobody said that. And where does it say we will always have sin? Nowhere. In fact most of the Bible is all about delivering us FROM sin, not IN sin.

Show me one text that says we will sin until Jesus comes back. You can't, because there isn't one. Instead it talks about how spotless we will be, and what overcomers we will be. It talks about living righteously and Godly in this present world. It's all through the Bible. Start with Titus 2:12.

You have bought the lie that is going to cause most of the world to be lost.

2Th 2:11,12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jesus has not asked us to do something we can't do.

Rev 2:7 ...To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white clothing...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Ah, but the conundrum: "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."

What conundrum? Who said they had no sin? Nobody said that. And where does it say we will always have sin? Nowhere. In fact most of the Bible is all about delivering us FROM sin, not IN sin.

Show me one text that says we will sin until Jesus comes back. You can't, because there isn't one. Instead it talks about how spotless we will be, and what overcomers we will be. It talks about living righteously and Godly in this present world. It's all through the Bible. Start with Titus 2:12.

You have bought the lie that is going to cause most of the world to be lost.

2Th 2:11,12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jesus has not asked us to do something we can't do.

Rev 2:7 ...To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white clothing...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

Indeed we are exptected to overcome.

I think the issue hangs on this very simple question?

Does Jesus cleanse us from "all" unrighteousness.

Now some will insist that indeed we are cleansed from all "legal" unrighteousness.

But they will not accept that we can be cleansed from all "experiental" unrighteousness, or "inward" unrighteousness.

They are in effect arguing that only the outside of the cup is cleansed and not the inside.

Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

That sin will remain until the second coming.

But if sin is still there (known and confessed sin), then Jesus has not cleansed us from "all" unrighteousness.

Jesus can and will cleanse us from sin, if we confess our sin.

The question that follows this though, is what is tempation then, if we have been cleansed. :-)

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Rev 2:7 ...To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white clothing...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

1 John 5:4 "This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

[Robert]

What conundrum? Who said they had no sin? Nobody said that. And where does it say we will always have sin? Nowhere.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10 There is no one righteous, not even one

Romans 3:22 There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God

What is "the glory of God"?

Ex 13:18 Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you....

Does EGW agree?

"It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.

Remember that if you are going to be as Holy as God is then there must be absolutely no self-seeking in your life...none! How is this done? "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

What I would like to see among SDA who push perfectionism is that they stop flapping their tongues and just do it. Be selfless...live Christ's life now and stop putting off what you can do today to some distant time in the future.

And in closing I'll give you one more quote:

Matt 19:17 "No one is good but One, that is, God."

[Robert]

You have bought the lie that is going to cause most of the world to be lost.

As seriously as I can state this the people who are going to be lost are the self-righteous.

"For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Does Jesus mean that when He came to this earth some were righteous? No! Jesus came to save sinners, but the self-righteous see themselves as Holy. What a delusion!

The one sin that will cause folks to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness. That's the one you need to worry over...

[olger]

Robert..

The world's ills are not the result of legalism, but rather the result of lawlessness.

Be balanced,

og

[Guest]

Amen og. Thou hast profounded.

[olger]

Ameneth,

g

[karl]

The one sin that will cause folks to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness. That's the one you need to worry over...

The Bible says "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." It does not say that the soul that sinneth self-righteously shall die.

I recommend taking ALL sins to the cross, not just the ones you are rationalizing.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I agree with this, but how does the passage Robert quoted fit in with this?

Where John says "if we say we have no sin"?

I think the same author can clarify it. Let's look at the passages from John.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 Jn 1:7-10 ESV

Look at the immediate context of v8 quoted by Robert in v7. John claims "the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." Then follows, "if we say we have no sin," or as the NIV renders it, "If we claim to be without sin," then there is nothing to forgive and therefore we deceive ourselves. NO ONE can claim to have no sin that needs forgiveness because "all have sinned." That John is referring to PAST sins and NOT ONGOING willful sinning is found in v10. "If we say we have not sinned, [perfect tense] we make him a liar...". He does not say, "If we say we do not keep on sinning [present tense] we make him a liar..." In 1 Jn 3:4-10, John makes it clear that who know God/children of God, do not go on PRACTICING sin but practice right doing. In fact he says that is how we can tell the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. The former practice right doing while the latter practice lawlessness.

[Gerr]

Quote:

1 John 5:4 "This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

"Not everyone that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven..." Mt 7:21 ESV

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Ja 2:14-17 ESV

[Twilight]

Quote:

I agree with this, but how does the passage Robert quoted fit in with this?

Where John says "if we say we have no sin"?

I think the same author can clarify it. Let's look at the passages from John.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 Jn 1:7-10 ESV

Look at the immediate context of v8 quoted by Robert in v7. John claims "the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from ALL sin." Then follows, "if we say we have no sin," or as the NIV renders it, "If we claim to be without sin," then there is nothing to forgive and therefore we deceive ourselves. NO ONE can claim to have no sin that needs forgiveness because "all have sinned." That John is referring to PAST sins and NOT ONGOING willful sinning is found in v10. "If we say we have not sinned, [perfect tense] we make him a liar...". He does not say, "If we say we do not keep on sinning [present tense] we make him a liar..." In 1 Jn 3:4-10, John makes it clear that who know God/children of God, do not go on PRACTICING sin but practice right doing. In fact he says that is how we can tell the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. The former practice right doing while the latter practice lawlessness.

I look at it like this:

All "known" sin has to be confessed and by faith cleansed from us (faith in Gods ability and promose to do this).

We still have "unknown" sin.

This cannot be cleansed, because it has not been confessed.

Your thoughts?

[Gerr]

One can't be accountable for a sin that God by His Holy Spirit has not convicted a person yet.

[Twilight]

One can't be accountable for a sin that God by His Holy Spirit has not convicted a person yet.

Indeed. :-)

So when we now consider Johns statement about us having "no sin", we can see that a man can be cleansed from all known sin, yet still have sin that is hidden.

God cleanses us from all known sin.

Sanctification is the continual revealing and cleansing of unknown sin.

Your thoughts?

[Robert]

Robert..

The world's ills are not the result of legalism, but rather the result of lawlessness.

Be balanced,

og

No it's self-righteousness....Think it out.

Mankind doesn't need Christ because he is by nature egotistical and proud. Oh sure, he makes some mistakes, but generally speaking it's someone else's fault.

We are born independent of God. We think we can meet God eyeball to eyeball. There's nothing we can't do....That's how we are by nature.

So God gave the law so as to convince mankind that he is destitute. It was given to break mankind's pride....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The one sin that will cause folks to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness. That's the one you need to worry over...

The Bible says "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." It does not say that the soul that sinneth self-righteously shall die.

I recommend taking ALL sins to the cross, not just the ones you are rationalizing.

If a man can't be convinced he is a sinner then he doesn't need Christ. That's the one that will get you lost....

As to your quote, "the soul that sins must die", well, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". So you must die! Do you wish to be under law?