What does it mean to be "cleansed" from sins?

[Robert]

That John is referring to PAST sins and NOT ONGOING....[sin]

No, John is saying if you think you have no sin in your life then you are deceived. The fact is Gerry, you love self. It is evident....The same with me. How did you get your goodies, by loving someone else instead, as the law requires? No! So you are living in sin and if you were under law, well, you would be under the curse.

Again (and you guys like to ignore this), "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." If you denied self then you too would share His poverty. Would you like that quote for the millionth time too? Here: "Those who follow Him must share his poverty."

You can't have it both ways....You either live for others, as did Christ, and suffer poverty in a world dominated by self-interests, or you don't deny self and build up your wealth.

[Guest]

No it's self-righteousness....Think it out.

Mankind doesn't need Christ because he is by nature egotistical and proud. Oh sure, he makes some mistakes, but generally speaking it's someone else's fault.

We are born independent of God. We think we can meet God eyeball to eyeball. There's nothing we can't do....That's how we are by nature.

So God gave the law so as to convince mankind that he is destitute. It was given to break mankind's pride....

Actually the world doesn't need Christ because they would have to give up the sin and lawlessness that they love so much. The lifestyle that they are trained in from childhood up, by television, their parents, and their peers. If it feels good do it. They are in Satan's trap, and refuse to imagine life any other way.

The law was not given to break anything. It is Holy, Just, and good. Rom 7:12

1Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

These are the kinds of people that see the law as an enemy. As a bad thing, instead of the good thing that it is.

Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." ESV

This refers to sins of the past, for once you accept Christ you are given power to change, and are expected to do so.

1Pet 4:2-5 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.

For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.

With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you;

but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

[Robert]

The law was not given to break anything. It is Holy, Just, and good. Rom 7:12

Excuse me? Just because the law are those things you named doesn't refute what I stated.....

Gal 3:19 "Why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are" or as Paul stated in Romans 7:13, "so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

You see people knew that they did wrong things. You don't need a law to tell you stealing or murder is wrong. Sinners know that....What they don't know is that self-seeking...the love of self...is the essence of sin. That's why God gave the law. And Jesus expanded upon the law when He was here on earth.

The essence of the law is "you shall love your neighbor as yourself". One commandment, not two. Thus the law makes matters worse!

So why did Jesus give the law? As a method for salvation? No, to expose sin (singular)...not sins. We do sins because of sin.

Notice Paul's quote:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, [why?] for by the law is the knowledge of sin!

[Robert]

This refers to sins of the past, for once you accept Christ you are given power to change, and are expected to do so.

I know your traditional view. Christ forgave us of our past sins, now we are expected to tow the line and get good enough to enter heaven. That's the teaching of a Judaizer.

[Guest]

No we are not expected to get good enough for anything. We can't. He does the work. But we have to be willing to let Him. And even that is a gift.

Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do you think it is His good pleasure for you to keep right on sinning, as long as you do it in His name? Not according to scripture.

Thinking you are covered while you continue on doing the same things is what will cause you to be lost. It is THE lie of Satan.

That's why Jesus said: Not everyone who claims to be a Christian will enter heaven. But he that.....what?...come on you know it.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Indeed. :-)

So when we now consider Johns statement about us having "no sin", we can see that a man can be cleansed from all known sin, yet still have sin that is hidden.

God cleanses us from all known sin.

Sanctification is the continual revealing and cleansing of unknown sin.

Your thoughts?

ALL sins are KNOWN to God. If I have committed a sin unbeknown to me, if I am not held accountable because He has not revealed it to be sin, then there is nothing to forgive. If, as you say, an unknown sin cannot be cleansed, am I lost then?

[Gerr]

I have no desire to rehash 5 yrs worth of discussions. The commandment is: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You follow your conviction of what it says and I'll follow what the Spirit tells me.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

This refers to sins of the past, for once you accept Christ you are given power to change, and are expected to do so.

I know your traditional view. Christ forgave us of our past sins, now we are expected to tow the line and get good enough to enter heaven. That's the teaching of a Judaizer.

1. Rom 3:20 "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

Gal 2:16 "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

2. Rom 8:3 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

3. Heb 10:14 " For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."ESV

"With one sacrifice, then, he has made perfect for ever those who are purified from sin." GNT

[Guest]

I have no desire to rehash 5 yrs worth of discussions. The commandment is: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You follow your conviction of what it says and I'll follow what the Spirit tells me.

I can't believe you did it for 5 years.

[Robert]

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian will enter heaven. But he that.....what?...come on you know it.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

What's the issue here? They are bragging about their works.....These are modern day Judaizers insisting on heaven because of their good deeds.

23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love).

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock [Jesus] 25 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock [salvation by faith alone]. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand [human works]

[Robert]

I have no desire to rehash 5 yrs worth of discussions. The commandment is: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You follow your conviction of what it says and I'll follow what the Spirit tells me.

Oh, I see....My conviction is mine, but yours is of the Spirit. Funny you should see it that way...

Of course you don't want to rehash agape vs. self-love. Clearly self-love is Lucifer's invention. If you agree in your heart with our bent-to-self your character (mindset) is unfit for heaven.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I have no desire to rehash 5 yrs worth of discussions. The commandment is: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You follow your conviction of what it says and I'll follow what the Spirit tells me.

I can't believe you did it for 5 years.

That's how far one's nature will go in order to please it's carnal desires.....The flesh is self-seeking....It is never satisfied....It will take God's law, which is as holy as God himself, and reduce it to rules sinful mankind can keep.

There's no command for self-love in the law. There's only one command and that is to "love your neighbor as you love yourself". You are to take that love of self and instead of living for your wealth, live for your neighbor's good. EGW made it clear:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

If everyone did this we would be in heaven. But where you have self, you have sin.

[Robert]

Here's an interesting statement by EGW:

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit [attitude, mind-set] as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . . [LHU 325]

Note she did not say that we are completely unselfish as Christ was and is....She said we will be growing away from selfishness, inferring that we are still selfish...still sinners and still need God's grace and forgiveness.

But instead many SDA fit the following:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That John is referring to PAST sins and NOT ONGOING....[sin]

No, John is saying if you think you have no sin in your life then you are deceived. The fact is Gerry, you love self. It is evident....The same with me. How did you get your goodies, by loving someone else instead, as the law requires? No! So you are living in sin and if you were under law, well, you would be under the curse.

Again (and you guys like to ignore this), "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." If you denied self then you too would share His poverty. Would you like that quote for the millionth time too? Here: "Those who follow Him must share his poverty."

You can't have it both ways....You either live for others, as did Christ, and suffer poverty in a world dominated by self-interests, or you don't deny self and build up your wealth.

There is that legalism again Robert...

When you start creating a standard that you adhere to and insist that everyone else follows it or is lost then you are entering into legalism.

Why is it that you call any other standard that we hold up as legalism, yet reserve the right to insist on imposing poverty on everyone else as some kind of test?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

There is that legalism again Robert...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

There is that legalism again Robert...

No, not at all....I'm giving you what the law demands....Not just the part you can keep. IF you insist that we must keep the law in order to make it to heaven, then I'm giving you its requirement.

Quote:

When you start creating a standard that you adhere to and insist that everyone else follows it or is lost then you are entering into legalism.

I don't keep that standard...I fall short of God's agape as seen in the life of Christ. I am only demanding what the law demands. It is you and others who tell me that the law is binding on the believer. Well, I'm giving you its demands.

Quote:

Why is it that you call any other standard that we hold up as legalism, yet reserve the right to insist on imposing poverty on everyone else as some kind of test?

Poverty is not something you do...like a Catholic priest takes a vow of poverty....Poverty is the result of living the life of Christ...one of no self-interests...in a world dominated by self-seeking and self-interests.

Shall I give you that quote again? How many times to I have to quote Ellen before you get it? 100, 200, 1000 times?

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him [live His life] must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” [RH 7-4-1912]

I think we should keep this on topic Robert.

But I can always start a thread for you so that this sub-topic can be discussed there?

Something along the lines of:

Does God require spiritual poverty or worldly poverty?

[Robert]

Does God require spiritual poverty or worldly poverty?

The context is clear, why question it?

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.”

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Does God require spiritual poverty or worldly poverty?

The context is clear, why question it?

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.”

Like I said Robert, this is a side issue and I would be happy to start another thread for you to discuss it on.

If you do not want to do that, I would respectfully ask that we keep this thread on topic. :-)

Mark

[Gerr]

Quote:

I can't believe you did it for 5 years.

I can't believe it myself either, but that's how long we discussed his bent "bent to self" & "foxes have holes" & obedience through poverty theology. I don't want to spend another five anymore.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That John is referring to PAST sins and NOT ONGOING....[sin]

No, John is saying if you think you have no sin in your life then you are deceived.

If John was not only talking about past sins but also ongoing willful sinning, what then did he mean when he said:

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 1 Jn 3:4-10 ESV.

Or as the MESSAGE says in vers 6 & 8: No one who lives deeply in Christ makes a practice of sin. None of those who do practice sin have taken a good look at Christ. They’ve got him all backward. Those who make a practice of sin are straight from the Devil, the pioneer in the practice of sin. The Son of God entered the scene to abolish the Devil’s ways.

[Guest]

There's no command for self-love in the law. There's only one command and that is to "love your neighbor as you love yourself". You are to take that love of self and instead of living for your wealth, live for your neighbor's good.

You are twisting the words of the commandment, to make it say what you believe, instead of believing what it says. You are making it say: Love your neighbor "INSTEAD" of yourself, instead of "AS" yourself.

Go to dictionary.com and look up the word "AS". Let me know if it says: "in place of" or "instead of".

[Guest]

Gerry quoted 1John 3:6: No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Amen! How does anyone get around scripture as plain as that?!

[John317]

One way they try to get around it is by saying that this verse just shows that no one really abides in Him and no one has really either seen or known Him, but not to worry, because everyone's in the same boat. It's the reason that faith must be the only thing that matters, because none of us can obey God.

Never mind that it makes no sense!

[phkrause]

Gerry quoted 1John 3:6: No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Amen! How does anyone get around scripture as plain as that?!

But Richard, your taking that out of context, didn't you know that? What's your problem dude...

[phkrause]

One way they try to get around it is by saying that this verse just shows that no one really abides in Him and no one has really either seen or known Him, but not to worry, because everyone's in the same boat. It's the reason that faith must be the only thing that matters, because none of us can obey God.

Never mind that it makes no sense!