What does it mean to be "cleansed" from sins?

[pnattmbtc]

If cleansing only applies to guilt, there would never be an end to sin. But grace gets to the heart of the matter, through the blood not only cleanses from the guilt of sin, but per Fink, also from the power of sin, the presence of sin, the penalty of sin, and even the pleasure of sin.

Nicely stated.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:There's no command for self-love in the law. There's only one command and that is to "love your neighbor as you love yourself". You are to take that love of self and instead of living for your wealth, live for your neighbor's good.

Richard:You are twisting the words of the commandment, to make it say what you believe, instead of believing what it says. You are making it say: Love your neighbor "INSTEAD" of yourself, instead of "AS" yourself.

Go to dictionary.com and look up the word "AS". Let me know if it says: "in place of" or "instead of".

Actually Robert's right on this one. Here's an example of "as" being used to mean "instead." Say a person is on IV in the hospital, and the doctor says, "This IV will be taken as food."

If you look at how "self-love" is used in the SOP, you will see in every instance it is used as an evil thing. Jesus was not saying that we should love others in the same way that we love our self (which would be commanding an evil thing), but that instead of loving ourselves (evil), we should love our neighbor (good).

[Gerr]

Quote:

Go to dictionary.com and look up the word "AS". Let me know if it says: "in place of" or "instead of".

Actually Robert's right on this one. Here's an example of "as" being used to mean "instead." Say a person is on IV in the hospital, and the doctor says, "This IV will be taken as food."

I believe most people would understand "as food" to mean "like food."

The Hebrew for "as" in Lev 19:18 that Jesus quoted in Mt 22:39 means "like". And the Greek hos per Strong's means - as it were, like, even as.

If you can find a case where the Hebrew or Greek for "as" means "instead of", please let us know.

[karl]

If you look at how "self-love" is used in the SOP, you will see in every instance it is used as an evil thing. Jesus was not saying that we should love others in the same way that we love our self (which would be commanding an evil thing), but that instead of loving ourselves (evil), we should love our neighbor (good).

[Gerr]

Amen, Karl. The Golden Rule "treat others AS you wish others to treat you" is just another way of expressing the commandment - "love your neighbor AS yourself." The parallel thoughts in these principles are lost are lost when one uses "instead of" for one and not the other.

[pnattmbtc]

I believe most people would understand "as food" to mean "like food."

The Hebrew for "as" in Lev 19:18 that Jesus quoted in Mt 22:39 means "like". And the Greek hos per Strong's means - as it were, like, even as.

If you can find a case where the Hebrew or Greek for "as" means "instead of", please let us know.

[pnattmbtc]

The parallel thoughts in these principles are lost are lost when one uses "instead of" for one and not the other.

Instead of loving ourselves, we should love others.

Nowhere in inspiration will we see that idea that loving ourselves is a good thing. This is the thought that I'm wanting to steer clear of.

That we should put ourselves in the place of others, that we might understand them and empathize with them and treat them well, as we would wish to be treated, is in harmony with the idea of loving others in the place of ourselves. I don't see why you would think the above mentioned principles would be lost if we understand that we should love others instead of loving ourselves.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

The parallel thoughts in these principles are lost are lost when one uses "instead of" for one and not the other.

Instead of loving ourselves, we should love others.

Nowhere in inspiration will we see that idea that loving ourselves is a good thing. This is the thought that I'm wanting to steer clear of.

That we should put ourselves in the place of others, that we might understand them and empathize with them and treat them well, as we would wish to be treated, is in harmony with the idea of loving others in the place of ourselves. I don't see why you would think the above mentioned principles would be lost if we understand that we should love others instead of loving ourselves.

The commandment says:

Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Implying a healthy God given self respect.

If not, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others...

I think this is easily understood if we thing of "self" as the new man.

But if we think of "self" as the old man, we will see the viewpoint you have suggested.

Jesus has made me a new creature self respect is inherently required, for the new creature, as a gift from God.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The commandment says:

Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Implying a healthy God given self respect.

This is modern psychology. The commandment had nothing to do with God given self respect.

Quote:

If not, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others...

No, this doesn't follow. I'm not saying that it doesn't follow that if we don't have self respect that we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then to others, but that it doesn't follow that if "Love they neighbor as thyself" doesn't imply a healthy God given self respect, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others.

Modern psychology says that in order to love others we have to first love ourselves. This idea, a new one (in terms of when Scripture was written), isn't what this commandment is implying. Self-love is a bad thing, which innumerable statements from inspiration make clear.

Quote:

I think this is easily understood if we thing of "self" as the new man.

But if we think of "self" as the old man, we will see the viewpoint you have suggested.

Jesus has made me a new creature self respect is inherently required, for the new creature, as a gift from God.

The main points I'm making are:

1.The commandment is not promoting self-love.

2.The commandment is not saying that self-love is necessary to love others.

3.Self-love is evil.

Please note that self respect is not self-love. These are two different things, and, again, the concept of self respect you mentioned, as we think of it, is not one which existed two thousand years ago. It's a quite modern idea, and not what the commandment was addressing.

It would be really interesting to see what Ellen White commented on this concept (self respect/self esteem). Actually the whole concept of self respect/self esteem would be an interesting one for a topic. Is what we've learned from modern psychology really true? It certainly sounds good (i.e., that we should have a healthy self esteem/self respect, etc.) Can we support it from inspiration?

This would be an interesting discussion.

[Guest]

The commandment says:

Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Implying a healthy God given self respect.

If not, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others...

I think this is easily understood if we thing of "self" as the new man.

But if we think of "self" as the old man, we will see the viewpoint you have suggested.

Jesus has made me a new creature self respect is inherently required, for the new creature, as a gift from God.

Mark :-)

"

Amen my brother. I think pnatt has veered into the Robert camp of thinking on this. I love what God has done for me, even though He is not finished, I can see the change. If you care nothing for yourself, you will not seek salvation for yourself. Likewise for your neighbor. If you care nothing for him, you will not care about his salvation either.

Most people suffer from some type of self loathing or another. And it is self destructive. Satan wants you to see yourself as so utterly worthless that you will simply give up on salvation and Christianity, and say "what's the use".

When you let God take over, He sets this relation to self back right, where it should be. No longer will you hate yourself. And it is NOT the same as this "modern psychology" pnatt speaks of, which actually encourages you to look at your self as better than others. They call it "good self esteem".

[phkrause]

Amen my brother. I think pnatt has veered into the Robert camp of thinking on this. I love what God has done for me, even though He is not finished, I can see the change. If you care nothing for yourself, you will not seek salvation for yourself. Likewise for your neighbor. If you care nothing for him, you will not care about his salvation either.

Most people suffer from some type of self loathing or another. And it is self destructive. Satan wants you to see yourself as so utterly worthless that you will simply give up on salvation and Christianity, and say "what's the use".

When you let God take over, He sets this relation to self back right, where it should be. No longer will you hate yourself. And it is NOT the same as this "modern psychology" pnatt speaks of, which actually encourages you to look at your self as better than others. They call it "good self esteem".

Great post Richard, makes good sense

[pnattmbtc]

Amen my brother. I think pnatt has veered into the Robert camp of thinking on this.

[Guest]

[Our "self esteem" comes from Christ, not from any intrinsic value or worth that we have in or of ourselves.

I agree with this part.

[pnattmbtc]

Good! Maybe our differences are mostly semantic.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

The parallel thoughts in these principles are lost are lost when one uses "instead of" for one and not the other.

Instead of loving ourselves, we should love others.

Nowhere in inspiration will we see that idea that loving ourselves is a good thing. This is the thought that I'm wanting to steer clear of.

That we should put ourselves in the place of others, that we might understand them and empathize with them and treat them well, as we would wish to be treated, is in harmony with the idea of loving others in the place of ourselves. I don't see why you would think the above mentioned principles would be lost if we understand that we should love others instead of loving ourselves.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Instead of loving ourselves' date=' we should love others.[/quote']

The commandment says: Lev 19:18 you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord - NASB

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.- ESV

love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord - NIV

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. I am the Lord.- NCV

love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.- NLT

love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord.- GNT

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.- NKJ

thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. - KJV

thou hast had love to thy neighbour as thyself; I am Jehovah.- YLT

Love your neighbor as yourself. I am God.-MESSAGE

thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah. -ASV

you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.- NET

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord - NRSV

[Gerr]

Quote:

Nowhere in inspiration will we see that idea that loving ourselves is a good thing. This is the thought that I'm wanting to steer clear of.

The commandment says: Lev 19:18 you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord - NASB

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.- ESV

love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord - NIV

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. I am the Lord.- NCV

love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.- NLT

love your neighbour as you love yourself. I am the Lord.- GNT

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.- NKJ

thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. - KJV

thou hast had love to thy neighbour as thyself; I am Jehovah.- YLT

Love your neighbor as yourself. I am God.-MESSAGE

thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah. -ASV

you must love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.- NET

you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord - NRSV

Are these inspired?

Quote:

That we should put ourselves in the place of others, that we might understand them and empathize with them and treat them well, as we would wish to be treated, is in harmony with the idea of loving others in the place of ourselves. I don't see why you would think the above mentioned principles would be lost if we understand that we should love others instead of loving ourselves.

No way you can love another UNLESS you know how to love yourself.

[Gerr]

Quote:

We are worthless of ourselves. That's the whole point. Our value comes from Christ! It is the sacrifice that Christ gave on our behalf that sets our value.

SOOOOOOOO, we were worthless BEFORE Christ died for us? And therefore Christ died for worthless people? Or did Jesus die for man BECAUSE he is of infinite value?

[pnattmbtc]

Are these inspired?

[Gerr]

Quote:

That we should put ourselves in the place of others, that we might understand them and empathize with them and treat them well, as we would wish to be treated, is in harmony with the idea of loving others in the place of ourselves. I don't see why you would think the above mentioned principles would be lost if we understand that we should love others instead of loving ourselves.

Look at the Karl's quote from MH, where EGW expounded on the commandment.

[pnattmbtc]

SOOOOOOOO

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

By rebellion and apostasy man forfeited the favor of God; not his rights, for he could have no value except as it was invested in God’s dear Son. This point must be understood. He forfeited those privileges which God in His mercy presented him as a free gift, a treasure in trust to be used to advance His cause and His glory, to benefit the beings He had made. The moment the workmanship of God refused obedience to the laws of God’s kingdom, that moment he became disloyal to the government of God and he made himself entirely unworthy of all the blessings wherewith God had favored him.

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. Christ proposed to become man’s surety and substitute, that man, through matchless grace, should have another trial—a second probation—having the experience of Adam and Eve as a warning not to transgress God’s law as they did. And inasmuch as man enjoys the blessings of God in the gift of the sunshine and the gift of food, there must be on the part of man a bowing before God in thankful acknowledgment that all things come of God. (FW 19)

This is a nice explanation of the theme. Note: "For he could have no value except as it was invested in God’s dear Son. This point must be understood."

[Gerr]

Where in the Bible does it say self-love is a bad thing? Self-love that centered only on self excluding others IS evil!

It is God Himself that COMMANDS us to love others AS, in the same way, just like we love ourselves.

Self-love, in the sense of AGAPE love is NOT the same as self-centeredness.

[Gerr]

Quote:

This one says it so well, so clearly, I'll stop here. Self-love must perish. The law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation.

Well, then, you should do what Robert requires: sell everything you have and give it to your neighbor.

ps - did not mean to be sarcastic.

[Gerr]

Quote:

No, this is backwards. Christ created infinite value in man because *He* is of infinite value, and He gave Himself for us.

Sorry, but I think it's you who have it backwards. If you say that our value is in our being created by God, I would agree with you. But to say that we acquired value AFTER Christ died for us, [at least that's how I understood your statement] is far off the mark, IMHO.