What does it mean to be "cleansed" from sins?

[Gerr]

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Here's what we need: self-sacrificing love, not self-love.

I whole-heartedly agree we should have more self-sacrificing love for others. We sacrifice a lot to meet our needs because we love ourselves. If we truely love others, we should/ought to do the same.

[pnattmbtc]

p:This one says it so well, so clearly, I'll stop here. Self-love must perish. The law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation.

G:Well, then, you should do what Robert requires: sell everything you have and give it to your neighbor.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's an explanation I came across here: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/self-est/howdoi.htm (The whole article is interesting. I quoted the last part of it).

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Jesus did not command us to love ourselves. He did not say that there were three commandments (love God, love neighbor, and love self). Instead, He said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:40). Love of self here is a given -- a fact -- not a command. We know of no Scripture that teaches that an individual does not already love himself. Paul said, "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church" (Eph. 5:29). Christians were not admonished to love themselves or to hate themselves. Self-love, self-hate (which is simply another form of self-love and self-preoccupation), and self-deprecation (possibly a disguise for blaming God for not giving the self greater personal assets), are all self-centered attitudes. Those who complain about not loving themselves generally are dissatisfied with their feelings, abilities, circumstances, etc. If they truly hated themselves they would be happy to be miserable. All human beings love themselves.

From the totality of Scripture, and within the particular context of Matthew 22, the love one naturally has toward himself is commanded to be directed towards others. We are not commanded to love self. We already do. We are commanded to love others as we already do ourselves. The story of the Good Samaritan, which follows the commandment to love one's neighbor, illustrates not only who is our neighbor, but what is meant by the word love. Here, love means to extend oneself beyond the point of convenience to accomplish what is deemed best for the neighbor. The idea is that we should seek the good of others just as fully as we seek the good (or what we may even mistakenly think is good) for ourselves -- just as naturally as we tend to care for our own personal well-being.

Another Scripture that parallels this same idea of loving others as we already do love ourselves is Luke 6:31-35, which begins with "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Evidently, Jesus assumed that His listeners wanted to be treated justly, kindly, and mercifully. In other words, they wanted to be treated according to expressions of love rather than expressions of indifference or animosity. Jesus then goes on to clarify this kind of love as contrasted to the love given by sinners. He says, "For if ye love them which love you, what thanks have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. ... But love ye your enemies. ..."

The kind of love that Jesus emphasized was action-oriented, and was that kind that was selfless and was not motivated by gaining returns. Since it is natural for people to attend to their own needs and desires, Jesus turned their attention beyond themselves.

That kind of love for others comes first from God's love, and only then by responding in wholehearted love for Him (with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength). And, we cannot do that unless we know Him through His Son. The Scripture says, "We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). We cannot truly love (agapao, action-oriented love) God without first knowing His love by grace; and we cannot truly love neighbor as self without first loving God. We believe that the proper Biblical position for a Christian is not to encourage, justify, or establish self-love, but rather to devote one's life to loving God and loving neighbor as [one already loves] self.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's another one which discusses the linguistic question asked earlier regarding the word translated "as," here represented as "wJ" (being Greek character challenged).

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Second, and more specifically, wJ" is sometimes found following a command. When it is so, what verb is to be implied in the wJ" clause? At all times, the indicative should be read.1 That is, the comparison is not of a command to a command, but of a command to a standard that is already being followed. Note the following examples.2

* Matt 6:5—”When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites [are]”

* Matt 6:10—”May your will be done on earth as [it is] in heaven”

* Matt 6:12—”When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites [do]”

* Matt 10:16—”Be wise as serpents [are], and harmless as doves [are]”

* Matt 18:3—”become like children [are]”

* Luke 15:19—”treat me as [you would] one of your hired servants”

* Luke 22:26—”let the greatest among you become like the youngest”

* Gal 4:12—”Become as [i am]”

* 2 Thess 3:15—”Do not look on him as [you would] an enemy, but regard him as a brother”

* 1 Tim 5:1—”Rebuke an older man as [you would] a father”

* Philemon 17—”Receive him as [you would receive] me”

In conclusion, is self-love biblical? Actually, yes. It is biblical in that it is assumed to be true (cf. Eph 5:29). But is self-love commanded? Hardly. The primary proof-text for such is Matt 22:39.3 And, as we have tried to demonstrate, that text means that self-love is assumed, not commanded. Further, there are numerous texts that suggest that our lives need to be other-directed. The plain meaning of a passage like Phil 2:3 (“regard one another as more important than yourselves”) ought to counter-balance any notion that our focus in life ought to be on self.(http://bible.org/article/self-love-biblical-matthew-2239)

[Twilight]

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The commandment says:

Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Implying a healthy God given self respect.

This is modern psychology. The commandment had nothing to do with God given self respect.

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If not, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others...

No, this doesn't follow. I'm not saying that it doesn't follow that if we don't have self respect that we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then to others, but that it doesn't follow that if "Love they neighbor as thyself" doesn't imply a healthy God given self respect, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others.

Modern psychology says that in order to love others we have to first love ourselves. This idea, a new one (in terms of when Scripture was written), isn't what this commandment is implying. Self-love is a bad thing, which innumerable statements from inspiration make clear.

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I think this is easily understood if we thing of "self" as the new man.

But if we think of "self" as the old man, we will see the viewpoint you have suggested.

Jesus has made me a new creature self respect is inherently required, for the new creature, as a gift from God.

The main points I'm making are:

1.The commandment is not promoting self-love.

2.The commandment is not saying that self-love is necessary to love others.

3.Self-love is evil.

Please note that self respect is not self-love. These are two different things, and, again, the concept of self respect you mentioned, as we think of it, is not one which existed two thousand years ago. It's a quite modern idea, and not what the commandment was addressing.

It would be really interesting to see what Ellen White commented on this concept (self respect/self esteem). Actually the whole concept of self respect/self esteem would be an interesting one for a topic. Is what we've learned from modern psychology really true? It certainly sounds good (i.e., that we should have a healthy self esteem/self respect, etc.) Can we support it from inspiration?

This would be an interesting discussion.

As requested:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/367684.html

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The commandment says:

Love thy neighbour as thyself.

Implying a healthy God given self respect.

If not, then we have to have an aversion to ourselves and then also to others...

I think this is easily understood if we thing of "self" as the new man.

But if we think of "self" as the old man, we will see the viewpoint you have suggested.

Jesus has made me a new creature self respect is inherently required, for the new creature, as a gift from God.

Mark :-)

"

Amen my brother. I think pnatt has veered into the Robert camp of thinking on this. I love what God has done for me, even though He is not finished, I can see the change. If you care nothing for yourself, you will not seek salvation for yourself. Likewise for your neighbor. If you care nothing for him, you will not care about his salvation either.

Most people suffer from some type of self loathing or another. And it is self destructive. Satan wants you to see yourself as so utterly worthless that you will simply give up on salvation and Christianity, and say "what's the use".

When you let God take over, He sets this relation to self back right, where it should be. No longer will you hate yourself. And it is NOT the same as this "modern psychology" pnatt speaks of, which actually encourages you to look at your self as better than others. They call it "good self esteem".

Jump in on the new thread my friend. :-)

[Gerr]

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G:Well, then, you should do what Robert requires: sell everything you have and give it to your neighbor.

Well, then, your logic is as bad as his!

Actually, if you believe Roberts premise that ALL self-love is evil (which you do), and that we are to live ONLY for others and not for self, then his conclusion that you/I should sell everything we have and give it to our neighbor IS very logical.

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I take it from your response that you're disagreeing with what Ellen White wrote? I'm not up on who all here accepts her as a prophet. Apparently your in the not group.

I AM a firm believer in the prophetic ministry of EGW, but she is obviously speaking about a kind of self-love in which the universe centers on it.

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Speaking just from the basis of prophecy, there's no place where Jesus taught us to love ourselves. He didn't say "Love yourself as I have loved Myself," which would have been a perfect thing for Him to say if this were something God desired.

It was He who quoted Lev 19:18, You shall love [agapao] yourself AS [in the same manner] you love [agapao] yourself."

Again, the Golden Rule is: You are to treat others as you would wish to be treated. If you don't love yourself, you wouldn't care how others treat you, and therefore would not care how you treat others either.

[Gerr]

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Speaking just from the basis of prophecy, there's no place where Jesus taught us to love ourselves. He didn't say "Love yourself as I have loved Myself," which would have been a perfect thing for Him to say if this were something God desired.

Neither did He say: Love others and not yourselves. Neither did He say: Love others INSTEAD of yourselves.

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Instead of teaching us to love self, Christ taught us to love God and others. He taught us to *deny* ourselves, as He denied Himself.

Do you eat? Why? There are millions of starving people. Then you should deny yourself food and give it to the starving.

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We follow Christ by loving others, and denying ourselves, as He did, not by loving ourselves.

What is it that is to be denied? Crucified? It is the "old man", the "old self", whose central motive is to satisfy the passions and desires that is centered on self at the exclusion or ven at the expense of others. Paul says, "Put on the new SELF," the kind of self that not only thinks of one's interest but also the interests of others.

The prophet Micah sums up God's requirements as to man's whole duty: He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? Mic 6:8 ESV. The notion that we are to love others and not ourselves or instead of ourselves, sounds good and pious, but I find it to be overstating what God requires. However, if one wants to love another person move than self, that is well and good. Many martyrs or heroes have done that. The sky is the limit as to what one can do out of love for another person.

Most of the 10 c are stated in the negative as the basic minimum requirements. The least you can do if you love your neighbor is not to take his life, property, his repuration, etc. But there is no limit as to what you can do for him.

[pnattmbtc]

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p:Instead of teaching us to love self, Christ taught us to love God and others. He taught us to *deny* ourselves, as He denied Himself.

G:Do you eat? Why? There are millions of starving people. Then you should deny yourself food and give it to the starving.

This isn't far off from the truth. It's a bit fanatical, but it's the right idea. The Day of Atonement teaches the right concept, which is that we should eat to live, not live to eat. We should eat in such a way that our minds our clear so we can follow by faith the workings of our heavenly high priest. We can't literally fast all the time, or else we'd wither up and die. But we should fast in the sense of eating sensibly and healthfully, as our church as advocated from the beginning. Similarly we should exercise, and in general do all that we can to be healthy so that we can serve Christ and our fellow man. Of course eating, to be healthy, is necessary to do this. But gluttony isn't. Gluttony would be a form of self-love and would be evil. But eating to be healthy that we might serve others is not self-love, and is not evil.

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p:We follow Christ by loving others, and denying ourselves, as He did, not by loving ourselves.

G:What is it that is to be denied? Crucified? It is the "old man", the "old self", whose central motive is to satisfy the passions and desires that is centered on self at the exclusion or ven at the expense of others.

This is what self love is.

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Paul says, "Put on the new SELF," the kind of self that not only thinks of one's interest but also the interests of others.

No, he doesn't say this. He says to receive the mind of Christ. Self is to die. Christ is to take the place of self. Not a new self in the place of an old self, but Christ is to take the throne.

[pnattmbtc]

I crossed from one post to the other, so I'm trying to straighten this out. This is responding to the first of the two posts above. I started to respond to the second one above this one.

G:Actually, if you believe Roberts premise that ALL self-love is evil (which you do), and that we are to live ONLY for others and not for self, then his conclusion that you/I should sell everything we have and give it to our neighbor IS very logical.