emerging Churches... and Adventism

[Dr. Shane]

I love small group Bible study - especially when done in someone's home.

Glenn Beck is Mormon. I have never heard of him talk about the emerging church movement.

[olger]

Good Points Tom. I just don't understand the 'bitterness' that is being displayed here by og.

Olger forgives Red-wood for not being able to distinguish between theological observation and emotive expression.

mucho bueno,

og

[olger]

I love small group Bible study - especially when done in someone's home.

Glenn Beck is Mormon. I have never heard of him talk about the emerging church movement.

A caller of his did 2-3 weeks ago.

Glen has repeatedly mentioned the wave of spiritualism that is coming across the land.

og

[Tom Wetmore]

...McClaren teaches that we really can't know anything about God...

Ger, perhaps you are confused between what critics say and what the ones they criticizes actually say. Compare and contrast what you said McLaren teaches with just one quote from just one of his books. For example:

Quote:

Jesus has taught us that the way to know what God is like is not by determining our philosophical boundary conditions/ definitions/ delineations before departing, but rather the way to know is by embarking on an adventure of faith, hope, and love, even if you don't know where your path will lead (think of Abraham, Hebrews 11:8). The way to know God is by following Jesus on that adventure. One doesn't learn what God is like in a library or a pew and then begin to love God in real life. One begins to love God and others in real life. In the process one learns what God is like-and one might be driven to the library or pew to learn more. Anyone who doesn't embark on the adventure of love doesn't know God at all, whatever he can say or define or delineate, for God is love. - B. McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy

How many of his books have you actually read?

[lazarus]

Olger, I'm always interested to know the source of information. Can you post where you got this info from. Like Tom said folks seem to like to quote the critics without even taking the time to take a look at those being criticized.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, considering the source is quite important. A moments reflection should give one a pretty good idea that critical voices are often unreliable sources. On things of which I have personal first-hand knowledge and experience, I have found that very often those who offer the most commentary and strongest negative opinion, quickly demonstrate that they really have no idea what they are talking about.

[lazarus]

It is not 100% clear what that means anymore..

In the same way that the evangelical church movement covers a wide range of activity and Biblical perspectives the emerging church movement is pretty much the same. I think its wrong to take the questionable elements of the Emerging Church movement and apply it to the whole movement which it seems is being done by some in our church.

A few of us Pastors recently read the book "The Externally Focused Church", Rusaw & Swanson. None of us, in our discussion, indicated that there was anything that wasn't Biblical in the text. We were exited and began to share ideas about how we could reach out in more Biblical ways to our communities. It's simple premise is that many modern local churches are largely internally focused. The book is an appeal to return to the external focus that God sets as the mission of the church.

This book comes from the Emerging church movement. Of course there are issues that Adventists will have concerning aspects of the Emerging church movement but I am convinced that there is a lot that we can learn. I think we will be poorer in many ways if we reject the light that comes from the sheep that are from other folds.

[olger]

I have read/reviewed several Emergent books & authors. Not all of them, that would take a year.

"Drop any affair that you have with certainty, proof, argument--and replace it with dialogue, "conversation" intrigue, and search" McClaren & Campolo - Adventures in missing the Point, page 84.

In good postmodern fashion, McClaren questions whether we can have any real accurate knowledge about God in the first place. He states that all theologies are heresies because we can't truly speak of God using our human formulation. Ibid 43.

In another place in "Generous Orthodoxy," McClaren posits a false antithesis, suggesting that we can know God personally but cannot confidently know things about him.

That is tantamount to me saying that "I love my wife but I don't know any facts about her".

Emergent agnosticism..

Haven't read that book, Laz. I'll take a look at it.

blessings,

og out

[SivartM]

I think emerging is for people who do not know everything.

[Stan]

could some practices of this movement be counterfeit of the real thing? if so what is the real thing?

The counterfeit? More than likely the various branches of the Branch Davidians. Just my opinion, they are the counterfeits, they like to use all the resources we have, to prey on those inside.

[Woody]

I think emerging is for people who do not know everything.

Yes. I think so. Some feel that WE are the REMNANT church and that there is NOTHING we could learn from ANY other churches or Christians. I reject this elietist attitude.

[abelisle]

"I love my wife but I don't know everything about her."

It's an anthropomorphic fallacy to believe that we can know God. If we could, we wouldn't need God.

Here's a question (not just for olger but everyone):

"Would Jesus attend and socially mix with people in emergent church functions? why or why not?"

Alex

[abelisle]

Here's some info that might prove helpful:

Seven representative categories in which the Emerging Church calls for change in Christianity.

1.Captivity to enlightenment rationalism in which the Traditional Church condones modern individualism, rationalism, and pragmatism leading to the mainline social gospel or fundamentalist tribalism.

2.Narrow view of salvation emphasizing justification over sanctification and the future salvation of souls at the second coming over the present inclusive Kingdom of God.

3.Belief before belonging such that Traditional Churches set up boundaries to keep some in and others out. This category is familiar to those acquainted with Rick Rice. The emerging emphasis on belonging before believing includes a call to revitalize evangelism by recognizing the importance of community.

4.Uncontextualized worship in which out of touch worship forms alienate the current postmodern culture.

5.Ineffective preaching which is no longer an effective method of spiritual formation. Instead, the Emerging Church calls for spiritual formation in which we learn from one another in a participatory community.

6.Weak ecclesiology leads to an emerging concern that the Traditional Church is too hierarchical and more concerned with institutional survival than being the missional, sent people of God.

7.Tribalism in which the Traditional Church is seen as sectarian and unwilling to engage the culture.

It should be evident that there are many similarities between the Emerging Church and Progressive Adventism as well as between the Traditional Evangelical Church and Traditional Adventism.

Alex (borrowed from here: http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/07/09/summer_reading_group_deep_church)

[LifeHiscost]

Have you heard this joke: "An angel is leading a tour of heaven for some brand new entries and as they pass a large walled off section, one of the tour participants asks the guide, "Who's behind that wall?" The guide responds, "Shhh . . . it's the Adventists. They think they're the only ones here."

Alex

Yes, I have heard that one, which kindof dates the person telling it. And the only difference that I found in the telling was found in which word a person would wish to replace the underlined above.

Baptist, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Presbyterian

Methodist, Assembly of God, Four Square, Atheist, Agnostic

pre-milleniast, post-milleniast, Carpenter, Welder, Jew

Christian, Budhist, Muslim, Male, Female, Old, Black, White, Yellow, pink, brown, evangelical, post-evangelical, anabaptist, liberal, post-liberal, reformed, charismatic, neocharismatic, post-charismatic, conservative, and post-conservative

The only way it could be told who the story was being repeated by was by how loud they laughed at their own joke.

You'll perhaps notice that the very young weren't included as they were willing to let as many in as could get there.

"Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:2-4 NKJV

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,"Revelation 7:9 NKJV

"And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!"Revelation 19:6 NKJV

And who are the least?

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven...."Matthew 5:19 NKJV

Notice it doesn't say the least won't be there, it just says they'll be known as the least. And since everyone there will be perfectly fulfilling the Master's will for there life, it would appear no one will have a superiority complex as is so common here.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—"

1 Corinthians 16:51 NKJV

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23 NKJV

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God..." Ephesians 2:8 NKJV

Regards!

[SivartM]

You'll perhaps notice that the very young wern't included as they were willing to let as many in as could get there.

That sounds awfully close to the evil heresy of universalism. Poor, deceived children.

[Tom Wetmore]

I have read/reviewed several Emergent books & authors. Not all of them, that would take a year.

Which ones have you read completely?

Originally Posted By: olger

...Adventures in missing the Point....

I think this maybe was true for you...

The point of the section the heading of which you quoted from page 84 (from the chapter entitle "The Bible") is elaborated and explained thusly:

Quote:

The ultimate Bible study or sermon in recent decades yielded clarity. That clarity, unfotunately, was often boring-and probably not that accurate, either, since reality is seldom clear, but usually fuzzy and mysterious; not black-and-white, but in living color.

So how about a Bible study or sermon that is successful not because not everyone agrees on the preacher's interpretation, but because, when the sermon is over, everyone can't wait to talk about it and read and ponder and discuss it more, because they have become intrigued and mystified and enthralled? How about a congregation who may not have "captured the meaning" of the text, but a text that captured the imagination and curiosity of the congregation.

The opening line of that chapter by McLaren, "I love the Bible, and I want those I serve to learn to love the Bible, too." And under the heading "WHat the Bible Really Is" he says, "The Bible is an inspired gift from God... that is uniquely profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, training, and equiping people so they can do good works for God."

[Tom Wetmore]

[Continuing on with olger's Adventures in Missing The Point...]

In good postmodern fashion, McClaren questions whether we can have any real accurate knowledge about God in the first place. He states that all theologies are heresies because we can't truly speak of God using our human formulation. Ibid 43.

Here is page 43 in its entirety:

Quote:

So new theological ideas - possibly including some you read in this book - deserve to be first heard, and then tested, sifted, and considered carefully (as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:21). That, at least, is the ideal. Sometimes the church errs by accepting new ideas uncritically; other times the church errs by rejecting new ideas without giving them a chance. Through it all, the church shows itself to be a learning community, seeking to remain humble and childlike in the presence of the great Teacher.

In another book I suggested that we think of theology as an art and a science. Few artists have said, "I have finally finished the definitive landscapes. Everyone else can put their brushes away now.” Most painters know that landscapes evoke multiple artistic expressions, and an artist’s work is never done. If that’s true of a painted landscape, how much more is it true of the Creator of all actual landscapes, known and unknown?

Like art, scientific knowledge is hardly rigid and stable, but fluid, flexible, dynamic, like a spider’s web. Scientists are constantly questioning and reworking traditional theories, proposing new ones, overturning last year’s models for still better ones. Just as new data requires rethinking of old formulations, so our theological constructions must remain flexible, open to correction and expansion and reconception. If, as C. S. Lewis said, “All prayers blaspheme,” then surely Tony [Campolo] is right about theologies being, in a sense, heresies. Our goal? Not absolute and arrogant certainty about our theologies, but a proper and humble confidence in God.

[LifeHiscost]

I close with the words of our Creator "Have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

go forward,

og

To tell you the truth I know little about the so-called emergent church. However I do recognize that there is a trend of thought in Christian religious circles that does not feel comfortable in pinning down, "This is the way it is". It is one reason why Jesus was so severely censured and ultimately crucified. It will be no different for His disciples in these last days as the Lord allows it to happen for our good.

"“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! Therefore do not fear them..." Matthew 10:16-25 NKJV

"Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”" Luke 21:28 NKJV

Joy!!

[Tom Wetmore]

...In another place in "Generous Orthodoxy," McClaren posits a false antithesis, suggesting that we can know God personally but cannot confidently know things about him.

* * *

Emergent agnosticism..

From that book in the chapter entitled, "Jesus and God B" here is the first and last paragraph:

Quote:

I am a Christian because I have confidence in Jesus Christ – in all his dimensions (those I know, and those I don’t). I trust Jesus. I think Jesus is right because I believe God was in Jesus in an unprecedented way. Through Jesus I have entered into a real, experiential relationship with God as Father, and I have received God’s Spirit into my life. I have experienced the love of God through Jesus, and as the old hymn says, “love so amazing, so divine, demands my heart, my life, my all.” As I seek to follow Jesus as my leader, guide, and teacher, I believe I am experiencing life in its fullest dimensions – full of joy and love, and yes, full of struggle and challenge, too. For all these reasons and more, I love Jesus. I believe Jesus embraces me, and you, and the whole world in the love of God.

* * *

This is why, for starters, I am a Christian: the image of God conveyed by Jesus as the Son of God, and the image of the universe that resonates with this image of God best fit my deepest experience, best resonate with my deepest intuition, best inspire my deepest hope, and best challenge me to live with what my friend, the late Mike Yaconelli, called “dangerous wonder,” which is the starting point for a “generous orthodoxy.”

I think McLaren was somehow prophetic when he wrote in the introduction to that book, "You may be looking for dirt so you can write a hostile review. Chances are you'll find exactly what you're looking for, whether it's here or not."

Having read the book in its entirety myself, I do not recall anything resembling your characterization of it. And as his own words convey, it certainly does not even faintly reflect agnosticism, emerging , or otherwise.

Do you recall in your supposed read/review of it what he said about your own heritage – the Anabaptists?

[LifeHiscost]

It's an anthropomorphic fallacy to believe that we can know God. If we could, we wouldn't need God.

"Would Jesus attend and socially mix with people in emergent church functions? why or why not?"

Alex

As to the first statement, that would put these words of Jesus to rest, as well suggesting that Jesus is not God since He is human.

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3 NKJV

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

John 14:8-10 NKJV

As to the second comment, I would suggest His desire to be with any who invite Him to be with them when they are walking where they believe He has no disagreement re: the harmful possibilities.

"Anyone who is not against us is for us." Mark 9:40 NLT

Joy!

[Guest]

It's an anthropomorphic fallacy to believe that we can know God. If we could, we wouldn't need God.

[LifeHiscost]

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3 NKJV

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17 King James 2000

[olger]

Tom, you have been warned by numerous voices--of the dangers of the EC, most recently by the GC president himself. What you do with these warnings is on your own shoulders.

You have chosen to defend that which is dangerous. That too, is on your shoulders.

go in peace,

og

[abelisle]

The mightiest human being, whatever may be his claim, is not infinite. He cannot understand infinity. Christ plainly stated, “No man knoweth the Son, but the Father.” A teacher was once endeavoring to present the exaltation of God, when a voice was heard, saying, “We cannot as yet understand who He is.” The teacher nobly replied, “Were I able fully to set forth God, I should either be a god myself, or God Himself would cease to be God.”

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me”—not through confessionals or priests or popes, but through Me, your Saviour. “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” This is the absolute Godhead. The mightiest created intellect cannot comprehend Him; words from the most eloquent tongue fail to describe Him. Silence is eloquence.

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 913

This is what I was referrring to.

Alex

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom, you have been warned by numerous voices--of the dangers of the EC, most recently by the GC president himself. What you do with these warnings is on your own shoulders.

You have chosen to defend that which is dangerous. That too, is on your shoulders.

go in peace,

og

So should we assume now that the end justifies the means? That a "warning" need not involve the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Should we honestly not care that the credibility of what we claim as "the Truth" will suffer by a careless disregard for the truth? Why should anyone believe a warning when they know it is based on twisting and misrepresenting the words of the those being warned against?

You mistakenly assume I am defending a person or their teachings. Not really. I have no horse in this race. But because I have personally read and investigate for myself the writings of those that you claim to be warning against, I can recognize and discern that you haven't. What I am defending is what seems to be an increasingly rare virtue - honesty and truthfulness. As I said before there is an ancient saying etched in stone about bearing false witness...

You might consider trying to honor that commandment by at least honestly answering the questions I have posed already and honestly responding to my posts rather than trying to divert attention from your own error by trying to make this about me and talking down to me as if you are my elder, which you are not...

At least show enough respect for those you oppose by being honest about them.