emerging Churches... and Adventism

[Woody]

Yes Tom ...

Being Honest is critical here. I hope those who oppose EC can do this so we can have an Honest discussion.

[lazarus]

Tom, you have been warned by numerous voices--of the dangers of the EC, most recently by the GC president himself. What you do with these warnings is on your own shoulders.

You have chosen to defend that which is dangerous. That too, is on your shoulders.

Olger,

I have compared what you have said and what Tom posted of the actual passages. I don't see the errors you speak of. What you have posted does not constitute a warning. Did you actually read the books?

When the GC president or anyone warns me about something I'm going to take the time to validate the warning. Remember the Bereans?

[LifeHiscost]

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 913

This is what I was referrring to.

Alex

As Og said, we have a choice whether to believe the Word as given through the Holy Spirit, or the wisest of men of this wicked and adulterous generation.

#376302 - yesterday at 04:02 Re: emerging Churches... and Adventism [Re: Richard Holbrook]

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

1 Corinthians 1:25 NKJV

Regards!

[SivartM]

I had no idea the SDA Bible Commentary was so deceptive...

[abelisle]

I would assume that our own literature, especially our own commentary would be vetted before being published?

Or is this one of those areas where if the evidence doesn't agree with what we believe, we either ignore it or condemn it?

Alex

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

You'll perhaps notice that the very young wern't included as they were willing to let as many in as could get there.

That sounds awfully close to the evil heresy of universalism. Poor, deceived children.

There are usually bits of wisdom from God mixed up in any religion that is straying from the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Just in case you believe that any or all Universalists are excluded from the Kingdom of God, here are a couple of Scriptures that do not agree with that conclusion.

"The LORD is good to all,

And His tender mercies are over all His works.

All Your works shall praise You, O LORD,

And Your saints shall bless You.

They shall speak of the glory of Your kingdom,

And talk of Your power,

To make known to the sons of men His mighty acts,

And the glorious majesty of His kingdom."

Psalms 145:9-12 NKJV

Notice the promise is to all. And there are at least some, if not many, who will be deceived into believing the promises are not for them. However, for those who are trying to figure out how to get as many into heaven as possible instead of figuring out how to keep as many out as needed, granted under God's specific care, they also have this these promises that give further hope.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."Luke 23:34 NKJV

"There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you."James 2:13 NLT

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13 NKJV

All who will at last enter into the city will see clearly that it is not their perfect understanding that allows them that precious right, but the perfect understanding of the Son of God, Whom they have come to trust before all their perceived righteousness.

Regards!

[olger]

Hi TomLaz.

Blessings to both of you.

Thanks for asking about my bibliography Tom. I will have some questions for you in a moment...but until then:

Generous Orthodoxy,

Secret Message of Jesus

The Shack (somewhat boring, and a poor substitute for the Great Controversy).

Currently reading New Kind of Christianity by McLaren (part way through it).

Read Brian's blog regularly (http://www.brianmclaren.net/).

Velvet Elvis (thought it was a dumb book).

I am well aware of McLaren's positive comments on Anabaptists and his pedantic praise for the non violence, and non materialim of my people. One reason I haven't allowed myself to be wowed by McLaren's accolades is because other authors have done similarly in the past (David Bercot, for instance). Our people are genuinely restitutionist, and for that they should be admired, but true restitutionism would demand that they accept the Sabbath, a lifechanging conclusion that I came to in 1987. Daniel Liechty has covered this aspect well in his book on Andreas Fischer.

As to your defenses of McLaren, I am not daunted nor surprised by them. I expect that. I also expect you to respond to my ctitique of The Secret Message of Jesus, and the more recent "A New Kind of Christianity".

Laz, I agree. We must be good bereans and search the scriptures. More to come...

oG

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: olger

Tom, you have been warned by numerous voices--of the dangers of the EC, most recently by the GC president himself. What you do with these warnings is on your own shoulders.

You have chosen to defend that which is dangerous. That too, is on your shoulders.

go in peace,

og

....You mistakenly assume I am defending a person or their teachings. Not really. I have no horse in this race. ...

i have to agree with tom. in reading his posts i only saw that he was putting them in context.

if those passages say one thing to you and something else to tom then perhaps that is what you should state...

my personal experience, and i can only speak from my personal experience, not anyone elses, is that those so eager to throw out "warnings" are usually in the deepest error themselves.

a person currently teaches that the "rapture" will happen may 11, 2011, that God isnt saving anyone who attends church, those who are attending church are in rebellion against the plain word of God, etc., etc..

anyone who tries to discuss these subjects with him are accused of the very same thing i see being said by some here when disagreements arise. for me it is rather evident that any who do this are coming from the exact same "spirit" as he and they lose major, major credibility with me that they have the vaguest idea of that which they speak.

[SivartM]

The best way to discredit someone is to create an exposé that misconstrues their beliefs. Many people won't question it, especially if you include a lot of references so you don't have to read the original sources. Adventists are legalists, Mormons are racists, atheists are evil... etc.

[Woody]

TU

Woody likes

[abelisle]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 913

This is what I was referrring to.

Alex

As Og said, we have a choice whether to believe the Word as given through the Holy Spirit, or the wisest of men of this wicked and adulterous generation.

#376302 - yesterday at 04:02 Re: emerging Churches... and Adventism [Re: Richard Holbrook]

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

1 Corinthians 1:25 NKJV

Regards!

Hmm . . . still waiting for your comment on the SDA Bible Commentary.

Alex

[LifeHiscost]

Hmm . . . still waiting for your comment on the SDA Bible Commentary.

Alex

First I would like you to know, having read in the past many articles written by F. D. Nichol, that I have the highest regard for his theological expertise and his commitment to placing honor upon God, especially as it pertains to viewing man, other than Jesus the Man, of any attempt to place finite man with the infinite and only God as totally ludicrous.

The Bible Commentaries are probably more helpful in obtaining the Truth than some other sources, and might be more helpful in this day and age to keep a balanced view of Scripture. However I'm of the opinion, since it is a work of man, granted the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit, it still falls short of filling this position:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Matthew 11:28 KJV

Not so the Holy Scriptures.

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." John 5:39 KJV

That advice, coupled with this:

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:12 NKJV

____places the SDA Bible Commentary a distant place behind my most coveted references for establishing a comfortable spot at the feet of Jesus, in listening for His instruction to me on a personal level.

I do not consider that advice for every person but I do find it to be for me a place of safety and peace.

"Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5 NKJV

#376277 - Yesterday at 01:45 Re: emerging Churches... and Adventism [Re: LifeHiscost]

Blessings!

[abelisle]

Thank you for your response.

May God's grace be with you always.

Alex

[LifeHiscost]

Thank you for your response.

May God's grace be with you always.

Alex

Thank you for your kind thoughts and desires. May I say I wish you no less and considering the Person of the Christ, the One we ask this of, we have these promises of its' being fulfilled in His best time.

" “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven." Matthew 18:19 KJVB

"Delight yourself also in the LORD,And He shall give you the desires of your heart."Psalm 37:4 NKJV

Sincerest regards for His sake.

[teresaq]

The best way to discredit someone is to create an exposé that misconstrues their beliefs. Many people won't question it, especially if you include a lot of references so you don't have to read the original sources. Adventists are legalists, Mormons are racists, atheists are evil... etc.

so very true! i-want-to-believe-itis...doesnt matter if its true or not, i want to believe it therefore it is true...

[lazarus]

Olger?

[olger]

Laz?

[Woody]

cool

Olger has emerged

[Tom Wetmore]

teehe

[Rondo]

I'm coming late to this discussion which is extremely timely subject. It can at times get academic and screams for a similar vocabulary. There is an article in Christianity today that I will quote from. Hopefully it has not been entered into in the last 7 pages of this thread, but here goes:

Quote:

Post-systematic theology: The emerging movement tends to be suspicious of systematic theology. Why? Not because we don't read systematics, but because the diversity of theologies alarms us, no genuine consensus has been achieved, God didn't reveal a systematic theology but a storied narrative, and no language is capable of capturing the Absolute Truth who alone is God. Frankly, the emerging movement loves ideas and theology. It just doesn't have an airtight system or statement of faith. We believe the Great Tradition offers various ways for telling the truth about God's redemption in Christ, but we don't believe any one theology gets it absolutely right.

Hence, a trademark feature of the emerging movement is that we believe all theology will remain a conversation about the Truth who is God in Christ through the Spirit, and about God's story of redemption at work in the church. No systematic theology can be final. In this sense, the emerging movement is radically Reformed. It turns its chastened epistemology against itself, saying, "This is what I believe, but I could be wrong. What do you think? Let's talk." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html?start=5

[Rondo]

An example of this, I recently attended a Presbyterian Reformed PCA Church for a period of time. If you think SDAs are systematic in their religion, try PCA. The Westminister Confession, Calvinism, predestination, TULIP and more will convince you we ought not to be so Systematic as we have been. That is something good the Emerging Church brings to all of us. Break down what you believe, does each piece make sense.

A new Theology that is emerging (small 'e'), is New Covenant Theology. Somewhere between Covenant Theology (what SDAs are) and Dispensationalism (what John Hagee is) we find New Covenant Theology. It has broken down the parts of Reformed Theology and other Sytematics to see there are problems. Discontinuity or Continuity between two different Covenants. If we tout Covenant Theology we tout Continuity and no fulfillment at the cross or at least a select fulfillment. If we go Dispensational, the Jews are saved differently than the Church or Spiritual Israel. Let me give you this simple intro to the three systematics:

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/hermenutics/nct.htm

Once SDAs get into this study of NCT it starts touching their sacred Sabbath. Should it? Maybe first we need to shift from talking of Law to talking of Covenants. There is a difference.

[olger]

teehe

Nice lipstick.

[Tom Wetmore]

So when I give you that great big man to man holy kiss, everyone will know it!

[olger]

Stiff arm that boy..

[Guest]

Is Tom emerging?